Moving twice in Kosho Ryu

[benjp]

One aspect that I find particularly useful in Kosho Ryu is the principle of moving twice combined with the 7/10 rule. (7/10 referring to first and second movements relative speeds; the speed of the second movement is ~1/3 faster (10) than the speed of the first movement (7)).

In fact I find that my kicks are much more effective because I have greater control over my balance. I've also found with practice that I can work this in to the hachi-hinkei with great results. I've been retrofitting my katas with this principle so that it becomes a more natural response.

Where does this principle come from? Was this a principle taught to Juchnik Hanshi by James Mitose?

Is it used by other Kenpo/Kempo styles? Do other martial art systems use something similar?

Regards,

Ben

[gakusei]

The full principle is move at least twice or at least one more then your opponent. Or simply, keep moving.

Since all our movement is around a rotational axis (i.e. spine) 7/10 helps understand projection and retration.

This came from Mitose; but, is not unique to Kosho. Kosho explains the principals behind movement much earlier then other arts I have studied. But it exists in all arts.

[Blackcatbonz]

The full principle is move at least twice or at least one more then your opponent. Or simply, keep moving.

Since all our movement is around a rotational axis (i.e. spine) 7/10 helps understand projection and retration.

This came from Mitose; but, is not unique to Kosho. Kosho explains the principals behind movement much earlier then other arts I have studied. But it exists in all arts.

some arts do not explain these principles at all......it is usually up to the student to try and decipher what it is the technique is showing them.

[Gary A Brewer]

I see it taught in both Kosho and Escrima. Angel Cabales taught the repetitive step, always moving. It is called the chicken step.

Roy Jones Jr. said he learned it from watching his fighting cocks fight. I am sure if that is where he saw it, maybe that is where it originally came from. Them there fightin chickens been around for a long time. Talk about a wierd saying (chicken) the fighting cock is about the toughest thing on two legs. Pound for pound..

Japanese Kendo teach's this also. GM Mitose taught it to Hanshi.

Gary

[benjp]

Thanks for the replies!

I've been lurking on the various comment boards for a long time. But after reading the threads about supporting this forum I decided to contribute.

Talk about a wierd saying (chicken) the fighting cock is about the toughest thing on two legs. Pound for pound..

That's a good story to tell folks who think that about escaping.


It would be nice to know how the other Kenpo systems approach this topic...

Ben

[Blackcatbonz]

i think as of late, one of the things being said is to always move more than once.
as the principle was taught to me, "always move twice, go back to where you were last."
hachihenkei kata teaches this implicitly. it is also seen in the 3/8 drill and in Naihan no kata.
this creates a situation that has your opponent striking air.
for me, the most important part of kosho is undertanding this principle and how it applies to escaping.

[The Kai]

I see it taught in both Kosho and Escrima. Angel Cabales taught the repetitive step, always moving. It is called the chicken step.

Roy Jones Jr. said he learned it from watching his fighting cocks fight. I am sure if that is where he saw it, maybe that is where it originally came from. Them there fightin chickens been around for a long time. Talk about a wierd saying (chicken) the fighting cock is about the toughest thing on two legs. Pound for pound..

Japanese Kendo teach's this also. GM Mitose taught it to Hanshi.

Gary

To avoid misconceptions, I'm pretty sure Roy Jones jr stated he learned how to box from watching his rooster's-not the concept of moving twice.

Kendo is a fairly linear style-watching a match has more to do with timing and initial attack then stepping off line

Try to make the concept(s) fit to the facts, and not fit the facts to the idea

[Gary A Brewer]

To avoid misconceptions, I'm pretty sure Roy Jones jr stated he learned how to box from watching his rooster's-not the concept of moving twice.

Kendo is a fairly linear style-watching a match has more to do with timing and initial attack then stepping off line

Try to make the concept(s) fit to the facts, and not fit the facts to the idea

Kai
Moving twice is what we were writing, You can move twice with out moving off line. If that is what you are saying. Angle's and all that are good but not always what you want to do. The situation dictates what you do. At least that is what I have found to be the best solution.

But if you watch those fighting cocks fight that is what they do. Hey, why not give it a break. You are always to serious about this stuff.

I was watching at the seminar (gathering) some of the Shihans teaching later.
They were just mimicking what Hanshi did, give them a different scenario and they were lost. True, not what I call sponanious movement. Only mimicking.

I pointed it out to Hanshi, He said, Yes, it is tough to teach that. Ed Parker lamented about that all the time. Teaching is very difficult. We try to teach them to think and conceptulize, some do, some don't. (paraphrase)...

Moving away and moving back is pretty much what it is all about.
Shawn knows. Read what he has to say. He is right on.

Ignore me Kai, life might be easier for you.

Regards, Gary

[The Kai]

True life get easier, who wants easy. I just wanted to make sure that there were no misconstruing what's happening

[benjp]

Hi Kai,

Thanks for the input, but Gary was actually answering my question.

Most of my post was to stimulate discussion, however I'm still interested in learning about the other Kenpo systems and how much of the 7/10 rule they have retained from Mitose's teachings to Chow.

What about your system, KajuKenpo? How do you incorporate your Kosho learning into your teachings?

Thanks,

Ben

[The Kai]

benjp

I just wanted to clear up a couple of points on Gary's post that may have been misconstrued, history is hard enough to figure out without clouded it up further

As far as moving twice I have 2 thoughts 1.) I don't claim to speak for the entire kenpo world. 2.) And don't ask questions if you are not ready for the answer

Thanks todd

[Blackcatbonz]

he didnt ask you to speak for the whole kenpo world, just how you did it.

[The Kai]

What I have found to be of immeasurable help was the idea of triangles, mainly from the idea of keeping your alinements, secondly keeping the other guy from setting up his alinements.Along with that would go the idea of negative posture that you force the other guy into.

Moving twice has some application in the grabbing tricks or techniqued, less so in striking attacks
That's a quick look at it from my view-I do have a tendency to be a little brief in my posts. soo over and out
Todd

[gakusei]

Moving Twice is a basic principle that is applied to striking, throwing, and escaping. Advanced students may move center without moving there feet; but, the principle is still there.

[The Kai]

Like I said, and I am aware that it is a basic principle, Myself I find value in the idea for some grabs-not for punch and other strikes. regardless if you move your feet or not

[benjp]

Todd, Shawn, Gary, and gakusei,

I'm finding the information from everybody extremely helpful!

The triangles idea sounds interesting. Our class was once taught a triangular jumping pattern, the butterfly, which has been of immeasurable help to my alignment.

Thanks,

Ben

[Gary A Brewer]

Hi Todd,

What do you practice? I am really not sure. I know you have the name The Kai. We talked about it or around it but you never did say. Or else I was not around and missed it.

Could you give me a location I could go to (I know other place) so I won't miss it again. Have you ever said???

Regards, Gary

[The Kai]

My teacher is Gm Jordan. The lineage is Alemany-Jordan-Me (among others) as a senior advisor I have Shihan Mike Burton who was a student of Nick Cerio.


As a quick question what is a butterfly jumping pattern?

[benjp]

Hi Todd,

The butterfly pattern, as I learned it is like this.
[HTML]
2
6
1,4
3
5
[/HTML]

Where the number represents the step number.

Start at one, jump to two while rotating clockwise 60 degrees.
Next, jump to three again rotating clockwise 60 degrees.
Then jump back to one/four again turning clockwise 60 degrees, this time you should be facing the opposite direction.

Do the same for 4, 5, and 6. You'll end up at one again.

It's difficult to represent correctly on this forum, so let me know if you need clarification.

Regards,

Ben

[Gary A Brewer]

Hi Ben,

The triangles you have made by showing the Pattern is similar to the male and female patterns. In escrima and FMA.
If you were standing at 1with both feet close together and facing 4 You would be stepping with right foot to 3 and 5 and the left foot to 2 and 6.

One would be a back step the other a front step. We do this many ways. The octagon is also a similar stepping pattern only more positions all in the form of a triangle within the octagon. The buterfly (as you call it) is also a way to move for confrontation in those areas and not just a repetitive step. Thanks for the information.

I would like to say to The Kai.

Your lineage is similar to Sifu Eugene Sedano, I am sure you know that.
Eugene and Hanshi are good friends.

Professor John Leoning was instrumental in quite a bit of what GM Walter Godin and Professor Sonny Gascon taught. They were all in the San Fernando Valley at the time I was learning and when I had association with Professor Leoning.
They all grew up in the same area as Professor Emperado.

I had (couple of months ago), a very good conversation with Guro Richard Bustillo about the above mentioned persons. It was very interesting. I went to his school in Torrance and spent 6 days at it, practicing from 9 to 9 with a few hours out for lunch and dinner. Had a great time.

Small world this martial arts business, especially if you are my age and had met the persons I have said I have. Which I have.

Thanks for giving us your lineage.

Regards, Gary