Animal techniques

[ATACX GYM]

I don't deny that. But I do know a little something about what is, and what is not, an animal method. Most of what people THINK is an animal method is nonsense. I'm trying to enlighten the readership a little bit on this particular topic. I am sensitive to the fact that most people are mis-informed or simply ignorant about it. I'm not trying to be a heavy-handed dictator about it. But I am trying to give a realistic idea of what it is about, and what it is NOT about, because I actually have the experience, I actually know something about it. You decide for yourself what group you fall into.



I am surrounded by people who practice qi-gong, i've done it myself and to some extent I still do it. San Francisco is a mecca for Asian and particularly Chinese martial arts and what goes along with that. You can't throw a stone around here without hitting someone doing qi-gong or taiji.

that being said...most of it is bunk. Most people don't understand what they are doing. They make physical movements and believe that is all there is to it. Wave your hands like this, and BINGO you are doing qi-gong. Do it for a week and BINGO you'll feel your qi flowing. Do it for another week and BINGO you'll be able to destroy your enemies with deadly blasts of qi. It's a farce, nobody really understands a fraction of it, but everyone has convinced themselves that they do. It's silly, it's embarrassing. I can't tell you how many times i've seen complete beginners in taiji and qi-gong who are convinced they can feel their qi flowing throughout their bodies after three easy lessons. It's a joke.

I am not discounting taiji nor qi-gong. I believe they are viable methods, but like everything else they must be done correctly and dilligently and they take a lot of time to reap the benefits, and there is a whole lot more to it than simply copying the movement. The vast vast majority of people, including the vast majority of those who call themselves "sifu" and charge a fee to teach, do not understand this stuff, do not have skill nor awareness nor understanding of qi nor how this works. They are frauds, but they have convinced themselves that they've got it. But everyone is a grandmaster in their own minds. The sad thing is, they honestly believe they've got it so they aren't even perpetuating a deliberate fraud. It's an accidental or unintentional fraud. They believe it, but they are wrong. Try and have a discussion with people like that, it goes nowhere because they believe it so strongly.

I don't know anything about the qi-gong group in Dubuque or the Twin Cities, so I'm not going to make any judgement on them. But I am automatically skeptical of all who claim to understand this stuff, until I see some real evidence to convince me otherwise. And there are very few people who I am willing to believe really "got it".

I don't know anything about Tiger nor Dragon postures in qi-gong. I don't know if that is legit or if it is bunk that someone made up to make a buck. There are many many different qi-gong methods, some are more focused on martial, some for health, some for long life. There are postures and exercises that reference "dragon" and probably "tiger", but it's just the name of a movement. But whatever it may be, I lump it in with what I have already said: it's bunk until I see real evidence otherwise. For most people doing whatever it is, it's bunk. There may be a very few for whom it is real.

What constitutes "real qi-gong" for you and who are those practitioners...if you're aware of any?

[flying crane]

What constitutes "real qi-gong" for you and who are those practitioners...if you're aware of any?

to be completely honest, I don't know. I've not had an experience with it yet that was particularly convincing. But I have seen a whole lot of people who are lying to themselves so I can certainly spot what it is not.

[flying crane]

Having known kenpoOG for literally all of his life and already knowing the answer to this question of yours, I'll let him answer the "panther fist" query that you asked...if he's so inclined.

it's his thread, he might wish to take part in it. or not. up to him.

[MarkC]

Having known kenpoOG for literally all of his life and already knowing the answer to this question of yours, I'll let him answer the "panther fist" query that you asked...if he's so inclined.

I learned the half-fist strike (hiraken) as a leopard punch, not a panther, although I suppose the argument can be made that a leopard is, in fact, a panther, as is a jaguar and a cougar.

[flying crane]

I learned the half-fist strike (hiraken) as a leopard punch, not a panther, although I suppose the argument can be made that a leopard is, in fact, a panther, as is a jaguar and a cougar.

I first learned it as a "half-fist". it was simply a shape that had certain usefulness under certain circumstances.

[MarkC]

I was, of course told about the various different alleged "qualities" of the 5 animals, etc. I always found a big disconnect between what was taught about animals fighting and what really happens in nature, though I realized that the animals were mostly symbolic.
I still remember the either drunk, stoned or retarded guy who bugged us all every Saturday at the kung fu theater matinee with the constant chatter about his "monkey kung fu"...which cracked me up every time he said it.

[flying crane]

I was, of course told about the various different alleged "qualities" of the 5 animals, etc. I always found a big disconnect between what was taught about animals fighting and what really happens in nature, though I realized that the animals were mostly symbolic.

I see what you are saying about the disconnect between what was taught about animals fighting and how animals actually fight in nature. Really, how many people get the opportunity to sit and observe in the wild a tiger fighting or hunting, or a leopard? I doubt many people get much opportunity to make these observations in nature, with enough regularity to develop a martial system based on the observations. Probably most people who witness a tiger in attack mode are running for the hills, just trying to get out of there and not get on the tiger's radar. So I think a lot of that kind of thing is surmised. I suppose some things could lend themselves to more regular observation: cranes in certain parts of the world, monkeys, mantids, snakes. Not so dangerous to observe this in the wild.

in my opinion, the way most people "understand" animal techniques there is a big disconnect between the animal itself and the actual technique as a human attempts to use it. But that's because most people don't really understand what it means. When it's properly understood then it can make a whole lot of sense. It really just outlines and creates a methodology with which to train a principled way of doing things. It's not about pretending to be the animal.

I still remember the either drunk, stoned or retarded guy who bugged us all every Saturday at the kung fu theater matinee with the constant chatter about his "monkey kung fu"...which cracked me up every time he said it.

yeah, we had that guy come around at times too. irritating.

[KenpoOG]

Okey dokey,

Let me explain why what my pops did was panther stuff and not just a a half fist. Panther, leopard techniques etc are about evasive defense and riding attacks back to the attacker. My pops did not trap my kick against his body and then throw the strike, mainly because that junk hurts. He actually leapt back out of range, and then followed my leg back as it was retracting. He swept my supporting leg, and didnt throw the groin strike until I had hit the ground. Once again, my pops got all battle cat on his own son in a testicular manner. Tip folks: Dont ever spar my pops, somehow, regardless of what you do, he is gonna punch you in the Mangerines. True story!

[MChong]

I was, of course told about the various different alleged "qualities" of the 5 animals, etc. I always found a big disconnect between what was taught about animals fighting and what really happens in nature, though I realized that the animals were mostly symbolic.
I still remember the either drunk, stoned or retarded guy who bugged us all every Saturday at the kung fu theater matinee with the constant chatter about his "monkey kung fu"...which cracked me up every time he said it.

I am a Chinese guy. The Chinese have always used flowery or embroidered language to describe things. We shouldn't get hung up on names, no pun intended. Just look at Chinese restaurant menus or move by move descriptions of Chinese kung fu forms. The names are symbolic but there is also a trace of essence in some of them. Just think German Tiger Tank, Ford Mustang, British Jaguar and American Indian names for example and for those that are interested Chinese Kung Fu does have a Dog Style.

[flying crane]

Okey dokey,

Let me explain why what my pops did was panther stuff and not just a a half fist. Panther, leopard techniques etc are about evasive defense and riding attacks back to the attacker. My pops did not trap my kick against his body and then throw the strike, mainly because that junk hurts. He actually leapt back out of range, and then followed my leg back as it was retracting. He swept my supporting leg, and didnt throw the groin strike until I had hit the ground. Once again, my pops got all battle cat on his own son in a testicular manner. Tip folks: Dont ever spar my pops, somehow, regardless of what you do, he is gonna punch you in the Mangerines. True story!

ok, I don't know much about panther, to be honest, it's not something I've specifically studied as a method. It's difficult to know what was really going on from a written description so I'm not going to try to debate it. If you feel there is real and genuine reason to believe it was "panther" and not just a half-fist, then so be it, or if the whole way that he responded, not just the fist itself, somehow is characteristically panther, then that's a decision for you to make.

My point in bringing up this issue in the first place is simply to say, when you start calling something an "animal technique" then there kinda needs to be a reason for doing so. If reasons exist, great. If not, or if you don't know them, then that is a problem, the information can be misleading. The shape of a fist does not automatically make for an animal technique.

[MarkC]

I am a Chinese guy. The Chinese have always used flowery or embroidered language to describe things. We shouldn't get hung up on names, no pun intended. Just look at Chinese restaurant menus or move by move descriptions of Chinese kung fu forms. The names are symbolic but there is also a trace of essence in some of them. Just think German Tiger Tank, Ford Mustang, British Jaguar and American Indian names for example and for those that are interested Chinese Kung Fu does have a Dog Style.

I'm...just not gonna go there.

[MChong]

I'm...just not gonna go there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyj9P...eature=related

I believe that that Dog Style was introduced with other styles very early on in Okinawa and evolved into Gen Sei Ryu. Gen Sei Ryu later evolved into the modern Japanese martial art of Taido.

[flying crane]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyj9P...eature=related

I believe that that Dog Style was introduced with other styles very early on in Okinawa and evolved into Gen Sei Ryu. Gen Sei Ryu later evolved into the modern Japanese martial art of Taido.

Hi Michael,

do you know anything about dog style? Specifically, what makes it "dog" style? I ask because as I watch that video clip I don't see much that is unique. It looks a lot like modern wushu and a lot like typical things that have been seen in the older Jackie Chan movies, stuff that he would probably have learned in the Peking Opera school when he was young.

thanks!

[MChong]

Hi Michael,

do you know anything about dog style? Specifically, what makes it "dog" style? I ask because as I watch that video clip I don't see much that is unique. It looks a lot like modern wushu and a lot like typical things that have been seen in the older Jackie Chan movies, stuff that he would probably have learned in the Peking Opera school when he was young.

thanks!

My knowledge of the Dog Style is very limited. It is one of numerous animal styles of kung fu and is known for kicking from the ground. It it a style found in Fujian where other animal styles were exported to Okinawa to form the basis for Okinawan karate. There is a style of Okinawan karate called Genseiryu that was taught by an instructor named Kishimoto. It is said that Kishimoto in his lifetime only taught either 7 or 9 students. The movements of Genseiryu contained a number of kicking techniques from the ground using a 3 point stance, 2 hands and either one foot or knee on the ground. I believe that it is a possible that Genseiryu had its roots in the Dog style. The Youtube example as well as other examples appear to be jazzed up like the modern Wushu. The original Dog style may have been closer to Genseiryu. Genseiryu was later changed by its leading exponent Mr. Shukamine to Taido which is like a a Japanese version of Wushu.