Looking at real fights

[jdinca]

I'm not sure that's the case. There may have been plenty of "intent." That doesn't mean the strikes were delivered with sufficient force to actually accomplish much.

I was sparring a white belt the other night, just low intensity, medium speed, touch contact. I was just giving him some straights and hooks to defend against, and I flicked a light jab out just as he stepped towards me. My fist connected with his forehead and my arm didn't give at all. It knocked his head back and stunned him and I stopped and made sure he was ok. He was, and we got back to work.

The thing is, I wasn't trying to hit him hard, in fact, I didn't. I just stuck my arm out and he ran in to it. But the arm had solid structure and I was rooted in to my stance. So when he hit my fist, there wasn't any "give" in my position. So instead his head gave over his neck. And despite there being very little "power" in the strike, it stood him up and stunned him.

But when you watch that video, you see a lot of people throwing fists at the end of arms with little or no structure in their strikes or their stance. So they batter their opponents repeatedly, sometimes making significant contact, but there's little appreciable effect. They looked like they had plenty of "intent" to hurt each other. They just didn't know much about how. Which isn't to say that you can't hurt someone that way. Just that you can hurt them a lot more, a lot easier, if you know what you're doing.


-Rob

A mixed bag? I also see a lot of concern about self preservation in addition to kicking someone's ass. Do I think they would have wailed on someone five one one? Very possibly. But it seemed more about street cred than anything else. If someone had pulled a piece though, the whole equation would have changed.

[Thesemindz]

A mixed bag? I also see a lot of concern about self preservation in addition to kicking someone's ass. Do I think they would have wailed on someone five one one? Very possibly. But it seemed more about street cred than anything else. If someone had pulled a piece though, the whole equation would have changed.

That's all true. There was kind of a "hang back and swing" approach from most of the guys there. I took that to mean they didn't know what they were doing, not that they didn't want to hurt each other. But I could be reading it wrong. A dude did pull a ball bat though, which to me signifies intent. Somebody pulls a bat on me, I'm not gonna spend a lot of time pondering their intentions, I'm just gonna go ahead and assume the worst.


-Rob

[MikeReis]

I was using the fight with the guys in the parking lot because I saw no difference between their wide swings and the "kung fu" guy who was fighting in the other clip.

And I'm not sure what classifies a "real" fight for you Rob, but the fact is that is a "real" fight. Now, there are clips out there that are more for attacks then straight street fights.

The fact that it's not two guys doing a martial arts fight doesn't mean it's not a fight. And from all the videos that were put up none were Kenpo.

However, that doesn't mean anything except its not out there for everyone to see. I know guys who have used kenpo techniques quite successfully against knuckle heads like what are on the videos. but even these guys don't look like the brawlers I've fought, and they would have laughed too.

It was more of an idea not an exact.

[Thesemindz]

Don't get me wrong Michael. I'm not bent about this. Sure, that was a "real" fight in the sense that there were a bunch of dudes trying to hurt each other. But to my mind, it wasn't a "real" fight because clearly none of them actually knew how to hurt each other. It's instructional in the sense that that is how untrained criminals might fight, but it's not instructional in the sense that there isn't anything there to learn from other than "untrained people suck at fighting."

I'm not beefing on you or your videos. I just think sometimes we get all hopped up on "real" fight footage that doesn't have much to offer us as "real" martial artists.


-Rob

[MikeReis]

Rob, I want to first make sure you know I actually appreciate your posts and even your comments to this. I'm more like trying to clear up that this was mainly a look at how you train in your martial arts because what you're taught in a dojo is completely different than what fights look like.

For example the boxer that dropped the two guys after that guy whacked his lady. Say that's the dude that wants to unload on you. Fast hands with power and a willingness to put you away fast. Or how in some of the street clips how people grab you, jerk you one way then the other and how many close distance fast and don't stand still ever.

I know that everyone on here should see their openings, but do you train with people putting that pressure on you like that? That's the main purpose of this thread and of the videos. Then watch attack videos where someone is rushed or suddenly hit. Do you see the body posture? Do you see what's happening before it happens? This is also something students need to learn.

[Thesemindz]

I know guys who have used kenpo techniques quite successfully against knuckle heads like what are on the videos. but even these guys don't look like the brawlers I've fought, and they would have laughed too.

I wanted to comment on this specifically. I've known both guys and gals who've used their skills in self defense. Some have used techniques, pretty much as written. Some have used basics from techniques. Some have used concepts they learned in the kenpo school.

And some have won, and some have lost.

Generally speaking, their training was a benefit to them. It worked, just like it did in the karate school, and it gave them an edge they would not otherwise have had. It wasn't always enough to carry the day, because sometimes they were outnumbered or outskilled or just plain unlucky. But I've never worked with anyone who had to use their skills in a "real" fight who had their training turn out to be a hindrance to them.

Maybe that's not the case everywhere, and maybe some people do better karate than other people. I knew a guy who used Lone Kimono against a home invasion and shattered a guy's arm. I know a couple of guys who used an inward elbow smash and destroyed their opponent's jaws. But I also know a guy who hit an opponent with an inward elbow smash and the guy just shrugged it off and charged right at him. I know a guy who was fought to a draw "in the street" by an amateur boxer, and I know a guy who was ambushed and beaten by six guys in a bar. Every time, karate worked, and they were better off for it, but it didn't guarantee them victory. Because that's not how karate works.

It isn't magic. It doesn't make us supermen. It's a skill, and like any skill, some will be better than others. My wife and I have a saying. Can't remember where we picked it up. "Everyone wants to be an artist, no one wants to learn how to draw." Lots of people want to be good at something, but few have the desire to actually put in the time and effort necessary to develop any real skill. And even if you do develop real skill in karate, it doesn't mean you're always going to win. Which is why I always encourage people to avoid fights whenever possible. Because the best karateman in the world can slip on a banana peel and hit his head on a rock.

There isn't any one perfect technique, or method. There isn't any one approach that will ensure you victory every time against every opponent. That isn't why we train. We train so we can get better. And, if we're "doing it right," the more we train the better we get. That's all we can ask of karate. That's all we can expect. That the hard work we do will be it's own reward, and nothing else.

I've known guys who never spent a day in a karate school who were plenty tough, and I've known guys who got black belts who were plenty soft. The belt doesn't make the fighter. And karate won't do my fighting for me, whether I have the best techniques or the worst. It's on me to go in to the school and train hard and stay on the grind. That's the only path to skill. No shortcuts, no promises.


-Rob

[Thesemindz]

I know that everyone on here should see their openings, but do you train with people putting that pressure on you like that? That's the main purpose of this thread and of the videos. Then watch attack videos where someone is rushed or suddenly hit. Do you see the body posture? Do you see what's happening before it happens? This is also something students need to learn.

I agree. And, at least in my training, we have done this sort of thing for a long time. Defend yourself against someone who's grabbing you by the arm and jerking you around. Defend against someone who's trying to get you and keep you in body locks and clinches. Defend against someone who's just pouring on strikes. A friend of mine was brutally mugged by being pulled down from behind by his pony tail in an ambush and then kicked in to the hospital. The next day at the karate school I led that exact drill in black belt class. Pull your partner down from behind and put the boot in, defender defends. The other night we worked on a bunch of fighting techniques from the Thai clinch, then a few nights later when we were fighting, we'd get clinched up and out would come the very techniques we'd been training on earlier. Spontaneously, without conscious thought or effort. Because we'd trained them in that context.

Students should be taught to fight using live training and resistance. You won't get any argument against that from me. I also think there's a place for static training, and everything in between. But definitely, they should train against increasing pressure, at a level and pace that is appropriate to their level of skill.


-Rob

[MikeReis]

I agree with you about that too Rob. I think if you and I spoke on the phone like you and Ras have done I believe you'd see we probably think more a like than what may come off on here.

In this video you see solid hits, and trained individuals dealing with some of the confrontations. I believe they were Kenpo guys in this too.

I have no beef with Kenpo at all. I really like it and it works well with everything I've been trained it especially since Ed Parker hung out with some very tough and dangerous individuals who influenced him as much as he influenced them with building their art.

Now I could be wrong on that, but there's no way to be around a group of people like Jimmy Woo, Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Victor Moore, Mike Stone, Wally Jay, and so many others and not pick up things from these people.

I like this video a little more because people turned it on and it went completely crazy!! constant motion, multiple attackers, arguments or stand offs leading up to the moment, weapons put into play, just a lot of things. Now is this big research material? As far as what knocked some of those fools out...yes.

My teacher who taught me kenpo techniques was doing underground fighting before the UFC came out in 93 using what he taught us. He had a fight team that did this stuff a lot and one of them was an older brother to a close friend of mine. He would tell us how fights wouldn't turn out the way he had thought or planned every time, win or lose.

I've used the kenpo principles and concepts but I learned from street fighting that you have to adapt them quite a bit when you're the smaller guy. I've never been tall and I was never a huge guy until I began lifting more in high school. So when it came to fighting I was always smaller in one way or another so I know what it's like to try and apply techniques have them fail and improvise on the fly to make sure my butt was safe.

After awhile due to the people I hung with and what I was into fights weren't the whole, "I'm going to knock you out" type attitude it was a fight to survive and either I walk away from the fight or be dead.

The long hair thing...I can sympathize, I had long hair before too and that was the first thing people would do. So I cut it short and haven't gone back.

[J-squared]

... But to my mind, it wasn't a "real" fight because clearly none of them actually knew how to hurt each other.
-Rob

People without martial arts training have been managing to hurt each other pretty well for years. They just might not be as efficient at it.

If someone is trying to wail on you with their fists, whether the strikes are solid or just flailing, it's a "fight" IMO. Just because he's not trained doesn't mean he won't try and bash your head against the sidewalk if he gets you down on the ground.

I liked the kung fu guy. He didn't get hit, he hit the guy back once, and it apparently ended the fight. It looked to me he was cautions of others (opponents buddies) and stopping there, versus continuing to wail on him was probably the smart thing to do, all things considered.

[Thesemindz]

Of course you're right. I just wasn't communicating very clearly.


-Rob

[flying crane]

I was using the fight with the guys in the parking lot because I saw no difference between their wide swings and the "kung fu" guy who was fighting in the other clip.

I know. But there is a big difference there, even if you don't see it.

[MarkC]

And there's this kind of thing....

http://www.wimsblog.com/2012/06/how-...-street-fight/

[MikeReis]

Thanks for sharing that video! It was an awesome picture of a situation going out of control quickly, but that punch caught him, dazed him, and then he finished him with non-other than a high roundhouse, probably all the MMA tv coverage. There's a lot to learn from this. Like 1, would there have been a fight if the guy just stepped off? Probably not. 2, would the other guy be more inclined to walk away if there was so many around to "save face" with? Probably.

Now there was distance with both parties. The guy in the black too close without being ready at all. His hands were down his body was straight up, I hope he didn't think his reaction was going to handle this mans action. It won't happen.

The other guy punched the guy which sent him backward, wobbly, then finished with a kick from that distance rather than closing. That was proper use of distancing in my eyes.

That was really good.