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Thread: Associational Limitations

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    Default Associational Limitations

    Associational Limitations

    In the past there has been and still exist limitations of some associations to forbid the taking part in training, seminars or events sponsored by competing associations or organizations.

    While I understand to a certain point those who wish to keep their material within the confines of their association, the limiting of others who could possibly benefit from the knowledge that exist to me should be reconsidered.

    When a new student joins a school / Dojo, they are pretty much welcomed under the organizational umbrella of that instructor. This allows the association to grow and support the financial requirements necessary to maintain the business aspects for the existence of that organization. Anyone who has ever hosted an event understands the need to have people in attendance in order to promote their discipline and cover the cost associated with that event.

    It would seem to me that the best way to promote and advertise ones art, association, and material would be to expose as many people as possible to their art by removing the self-imposed blockades which keep others from attending.

    Thoughts anyone
    Brad Marshall SP
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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    Preachin' to the choir on this one, bubba. I always get a kick out of the tirbalism in kenpo, typically reserved for inner city gangs defending a patch of concrete sidewalk they don't even own, or 8th grade juveniles learning how to balance emerging hormones with boundary violation/defense issues & socially appropriate choices.

    I often think, "But ain't we all kenpo?". I suspect there would be more comaraderie if we opened events to any and all comers interested. Picture a kenpo camp with folks from all walks...motion kenpo guys can ask direct questions of SL4 guys, who can ask direct questions of IKCA guys, who can ask direct questions of AKKI guys, and they can all get on the mat and train with each other & slap leather to learn something new, & take it back to their respective kenpo homes.

    But I guess the history of class struggles, race struggles, gender equality issues, etc., shows us that -- even though we are more alike than we are different -- we just can't put it down long enough to hang out together and drink a beer. Unless "them" are in their pub and "us" are in ours.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    i've never heard of people being restricted to go to other association camps.. thats stupid.. ill go where i damn well please. if you're not going there to teach, or share your association's "big secrets" or whatnot, and just going to learn. you have every right, and i dont see it as disrespectful to anyone if you go and learn. so and so might be the grand master or whatever of your association. but they aren't your -master-.

    the only thing i would have concern about is taking up other people's time.. i might not do the same techniques as being given an example in the other associations. so it'd take a little bit to learn from someone. or do it a different way, and not be able to explain why do one way over a different.

    this isnt feudal japan folks, its america. :-p
    Brian Sheets
    VKKSI Kenpo 1st Black

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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    I often think, "But ain't we all kenpo?". I suspect there would be more comaraderie if we opened events to any and all comers interested. Picture a kenpo camp with folks from all walks...motion kenpo guys can ask direct questions of SL4 guys, who can ask direct questions of IKCA guys, who can ask direct questions of AKKI guys, and they can all get on the mat and train with each other & slap leather to learn something new, & take it back to their respective kenpo homes.
    I heard this fella'....Ed Parker...had an idea kinda' like that and started this tournie-thing called the IKC's..... shoot...you didn't even have to be a kenpoist to attend!
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    I understand the sentiment expressed here, but I can see some practical reasons why people would choose to not participate in teaching events run by people from other associations. The curriculum can be fairly different, and may not translate across associations well enough to make the time well spent. So people might just make a decision that it doesn't make sense to do it. Of course that shouldn't prevent friendships and whatnot, and some level of sharing if people want to put in the time, but a formal seminar with many people in attendance may just be seen as not the best time to do it.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    This is just one reason budoCamp is so special. Transcends those barriers.

    www.budocamponline.com


    (shamelessly pimping it, I know. So come to budocamp and I will apologize for mentioning it every chance I get LOL.)

    I think there is a half-good point about not having a common ground for some of the material. I see that as the gamble I, as an attendee, would take: I risk the possibiltiy I might have to get very confused and look like a moron for a bit; but I might win and get some insights that I wouldn't otherwise have. But let me take that gamble. I am way ahead on the balance sheet.
    -David C
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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    This is just one reason budoCamp is so special. Transcends those barriers.

    www.budocamponline.com


    (shamelessly pimping it, I know. So come to budocamp and I will apologize for mentioning it every chance I get LOL.)

    I think there is a half-good point about not having a common ground for some of the material. I see that as the gamble I, as an attendee, would take: I risk the possibiltiy I might have to get very confused and look like a moron for a bit; but I might win and get some insights that I wouldn't otherwise have. But let me take that gamble. I am way ahead on the balance sheet.

    well yeah, I think it's a decision that the individual ought to make. If events are closed to outsiders, that might just be elitism, plain and simple. But there might be reasons behind the decision and it might not be as simple as one thinks.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    I understand the sentiment expressed here, but I can see some practical reasons why people would choose to not participate in teaching events run by people from other associations. The curriculum can be fairly different, and may not translate across associations well enough to make the time well spent. So people might just make a decision that it doesn't make sense to do it. Of course that shouldn't prevent friendships and whatnot, and some level of sharing if people want to put in the time, but a formal seminar with many people in attendance may just be seen as not the best time to do it.
    Good point, however it should be the person who wishes to attend to make that decision and not that of a political one. When an association or organization excludes a person from learning based on the patch they wear, or who their teacher may be, is nothing more then self-serving discrimination on a basic level, as far as I am concerned.

    For me that is the same as forced loyalty based on legal ramifications, as opposed to the quality of their material and the instructional level of understanding in which they promote, kinda of like a forced servitude.

    Better stop before I get on my soap box.
    Brad Marshall SP
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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Good point, however it should be the person who wishes to attend to make that decision and not that of a political one. When an association or organization excludes a person from learning based on the patch they wear, or who their teacher may be, is nothing more then self-serving discrimination on a basic level, as far as I am concerned.

    For me that is the same as forced loyalty based on legal ramifications, as opposed to the quality of their material and the instructional level of understanding in which they promote, kinda of like a forced servitude.

    Better stop before I get on my soap box.

    yup, as I mentioned in my prior post, I think the individual ought to make that decision. however, if an organization makes a decision to open their own events to members only, there may be more to it than one might seem. There could be seminars that are based on some very specific information that an outsider would not have learned, for example, and it may not be possible to teach that material to an outsider on the spot. The presence of outsiders without the necessary background could bring the seminar to a halt.

    I agree with you in that I don't think an org. ought to try and dictate what outside events their members attend. But I can again see valid reasons why an org. may decide to exclude outsiders from their own events.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    to me they seem alot like a union you HAVE to join to be employed. but you dont get the protection of a union..

    this system seems to tilt the benifits to the orginazition and not so much for the participant..

    i feel the only reason for associations is to validate your ranking..

    I personally can not understand why, as an instructor, you wonld want to hold a student back from being a better martial artist, and from learnining as much as they possibly can.


    i do understand why a mcdojo would want to restrict its students.. you would end up loosing students to the "better" schools.

    my $.02
    "The sacraed rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself, and can never be erased.""

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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    i think im confused here.. is the post about people not being able to go to other camps/event/seminar, because their association forbids it.. or is it people not being able to go to a camp/event/seminar because it's a closed event to members?
    Brian Sheets
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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxershane View Post
    to me they seem alot like a union you HAVE to join to be employed. but you dont get the protection of a union..

    this system seems to tilt the benifits to the orginazition and not so much for the participant..

    i feel the only reason for associations is to validate your ranking..

    I personally can not understand why, as an instructor, you wonld want to hold a student back from being a better martial artist, and from learnining as much as they possibly can.


    i do understand why a mcdojo would want to restrict its students.. you would end up loosing students to the "better" schools.

    my $.02

    This is pretty much spot on with how I see it. If you have an instructor who discourages you from learning different or new ideas and concepts, they do not belong teaching.
    Jeff Magoni

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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkside View Post
    This is pretty much spot on with how I see it. If you have an instructor who discourages you from learning different or new ideas and concepts, they do not belong teaching.
    Not entirely true.

    If that teaching is counter-productive to what they are sharing with you at the time, it should be respected. Limit your mind to what you can understand at any one setting...
    Be safe,

    Roach

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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by madeku View Post
    i think im confused here.. is the post about people not being able to go to other camps/event/seminar, because their association forbids it.. or is it people not being able to go to a camp/event/seminar because it's a closed event to members?

    Two seperate issues which are linked.

    The first is Closed events which keep out members of other organizations.

    While I understand the issue of not knowing material that is in their system, I also know how long it takes to teach a tech, which is more often then not reviewed anyway. So that doesn't carry very far with me.

    The second is associations which forbid you from attending events outside of the association you belong too. While I respect the conter productive conflict that it may have in your current training, once you get to a certian level this also goes out the window. We have a saying where Im from and it goes like this ( That dog don't hunt).

    Oh well Im back on my Soap box again.
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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    Quote Originally Posted by Roach View Post
    Not entirely true.

    If that teaching is counter-productive to what they are sharing with you at the time, it should be respected. Limit your mind to what you can understand at any one setting...
    Ok. I guess I should have said when you are ready to learn such ideas and concepts, and then are restricted from doing so. I wasn't trying to imply this was a yellow belt level student trying to learn long form 6, that would just be silly.
    Jeff Magoni

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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    Often enough, it's simply a matter of the first set of posts... Let's call it "Turf War". Many years ago, for instance, when the first of these forums was Kenpo Net, a number of us, to include, Golden Dragon, myself, and a fair number of others who either are not around, or simply don't post anymore, attempted to put together a multi-camp get together. We were going to schedule it to be here on Farmer Mountain during the Spring/Summer. We hyped it and began trying to plan it. We even had a name for it, KENPOPALOOZA. LOL!!!!

    The get together was going to be over a weekend or three days, it was going to be open to everyone. We wanted to set it so that someone from each of the main groups of attendees had a time set aside when they could teach something specific from their individual take on Kenpo. It was meant to be a come together and see what's happening sort of thing... You know, sister/brotherhood, cameraderie, food, drink, fun, sitting around campfires and singing Kumbayah, etc. etc. etc. etc.

    Conatser, and I, who was to be considered the "ring leaders", received heat, and so much "standoffishness" that it simply ceased to become a non-event. We decided that it just wasn't worth the hassle.

    Not to beat a dead horse, but I think that my cavalier attitude toward getting different folks together for learning and teaching was "one" of the reasons that I became a Tracy's non-entity. I do kinow that some of the powers that be were pissed off when I put to them that I was trying to promulgate fellowship between the two major camps that had presence on the forums at the time, EPAK and Tracy's. Someone relatively high up in the organization relayed to me that "We don't need that stuff", or words to that effect.

    Now granted, the years have tended to smash memories and such together, and I'm really not trying to incurr the wrath of Tracy's stalwarts.
    I may be a bit off in some of the retelling, but that's pretty much how I remember it. Turf wars, and secret crap... Bah! It seems, bottom line, to be all about the perceived, owned property, insecurity, and the money.

    That is simply my take on it, and I could be wrong (ala Dennis Miller)...

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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    Limitations do just what they say the do. I don't necessarily agree with notion of something "conflicting" with what you are learning at the time. The onus is on the student to develop an understanding of when the tech of one system might work better than another.

    I've only had one opportunity (so far) to attend a Kenpo seminar outside of my own Kenpo system but several in the JMA world. All of these have proven very edifying and have benefited my skill tremendously. I see no reason I should be hindered.

    For any system that holds events that are exclusive to their own...umm, good luck.

    Just my .02.

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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    This thread actually touches heavily upon an issue that I've been thinking about anyway, and that is the whole issue of attending seminars in the first place. Personally, I'm not a big fan of seminars, and I feel even more strongly about it when the seminar is outside of your particular style.

    The reason for this is that a seminar tends to cram a lot of info down your throat in a short period of time, and there is often little opportunity for follow-up. If the material is really new to you, then you cannot learn it well in a seminar. And it takes a lot of follow-up with the instructor in order to make sure you develop the material in the right way. If you are not in a position to commit to this follow-up with the instructor, then I think you kind of wasted your time. You've learned something poorly because learning it well is a gradual process, and you don't fully understand it, and you aren't in a position to further develop it under the continued guidance of the instructor so you won't clean it up. So you end up with something that you don't really understand and probably never will, under the circumstances. I just don't see a lot of point in doing that.

    This is especially true when attending a seminar outside of your style, even if it is a different kenpo style. Things are still different. I don't see the point of trying to mish-mash pieces of other systems into your own, when you're better off working with your teacher with whom you can continue the process and develop the knowledge and understanding and skill appropriately.

    If you want to learn a different style, then I think you need to become a student of that style under a good teacher. Doing the seminar thing just doesn't seem like the right way to approach it to me.

    I guess that's why I just don't attend seminars. I'm not that interested in just seeing what other people do, if it isn't going to really help me in the long run. If you are looking for a new school, maybe a seminar is a good thing, maybe you find a new teacher you'd like to study with. But if you are happy with your current situation, I'm not convinced it's such a good idea.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    As someone with much less experience, I tend to get a lot more out of it than you seem to.

    When it works best, there will be some connection made between ideas. For example I went to an event earlier this year and worked a couple hours under Sensei John Kerker, looking at applications of the "inward block" (few of which involved 'blocking'). Yeah he showed some cool techniques but I had a number of insights into things I already knew, like he made connectiosn between things I hadn't realized were connected. Same when I worked with Sifu Starr, his seminar on body mechanics totally exploded some basics I already knew into much more sphisticated applications.

    So while I probably can't remember or do any of the specific techniques they demonstrated, I still took a LOT home with me that day.

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    Default Re: Associational Limitations

    I think it really is a personal decision. I know that a lot of people really like going to seminars and feel they get a lot of benefit from them. I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone what they need to do. I see it a little differently and so I thought I'd throw the idea out there for people to consider.

    I won't say you can't get anything from seminars. I expect I would also. I just think that if you already have a good instructor in your art, then your time is really best spent there. That's just how I see it.

    I trained quite obsessively for a number of years in capoeira under a very capable, senior level teacher, and we were part of a very large capoeira organization based in Rio de Janiero. Every year my teacher would bring her teacher, and some other senior level instructors to do a series of workshops and seminars, in preparation to the annual promotion ceremonies. It was fun, and at the time I felt like I learned a lot. But in hindsight, I think the biggest benefit that I got was the opportunity to see a different flavor of capoeira in how these other instructors did things. Did I really learn anything new on a technical level? Not really, nothing that I wasn't already working on under my instructor's very capable hands. But I guess seeing how the other instructors played their game and whatnot helped to broaden my horizons a bit, gave me a bit bigger vision of what I was trying to accomplish. But then when they all left and our school returned to business as usual, our regular training patterns and habits were not really impacted in the long term.

    I would actually not consider attending a seminar from a capoeira group outside of our organization, because in the capoeira world, technique and approach to training and the game can actually vary quite widely, and it would actually confuse your own methods to try and mish-mash this together. This may not be so extreme in other arts, but in capoeira it really is.

    So I think it can be a difficult thing to really evaluate in an objective way. Sure, I think one can get benefits from seminars, but how much benefit one gets may depend a lot on the individual, as well as the topic of the seminar and the ability of that instructor. My capoeira instructor's instructor is kind of legendary in the capoeira world, so in a way it was fun to be around him, I guess. But later I began to realize that he is mostly legendary within our group, and less so outside of our group. So we make our own heros, and I don't see a lot of point in going to a seminar just for that.

    Maybe I've just been fortunate in that I've been able to train under some very capable instructors in my various arts. So I guess I just don't find much lacking within their contexts. Maybe that affects my position toward seminars to a great extent.

    Anyway, just something to think about.
    Michael


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