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Thread: Ok need some advice again

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    Default Ok need some advice again

    Ok need some advice again, I have been attending the phase one class (white-adv Orange belts) as well as my phase 2 class, (purple- red belts).

    In the phase one class I have been finding myself partnered up with a very new white belt. This guy is super nice and well he tries hard but he lacks somewhat, ok horribly in the control, and coordination, dept. Iím not knocking him hell I know I was like a bull in a china shop when I started. But here is my situation; I am most of the time partnered up with this guy. I think the rest of the class is afraid of him since he goes way to fast and has low control and coordination. With that said I get hit a lot not the normal bump that happens when people are going at it 100%. I get hit while doing delayed sword. And not just a love tap it only took once and I block and move and do what ever it takes to keep myself from getting hit short of popping him one good time.

    I am not an instructor, or in any kind of assistant role just a student getting a refresher since I had to quit for a while long story. The second thing is I know my instructor knows what I am up against and I think this is kind of a character building exercise of sorts. I have on more than one occasion given my instructor a look that said 1000 words while working with this guy but nothing was said. So I have to believe he knows but wants to see how I handle this.

    In the last few classes we started out with the most basic tech delayed sword. I was partnered up with bruiser and we were doing the tech. Well I did it and I moved like normal, that I think intimidated this new guy so my next time I slowed way down. But he kept on going 100 mph, even thought I told him slow down and work on form speed will come later. Well he just went faster and seemed to get frustrated and hit me more and harder and this time in the face. Now I donít like to dodge and move out of the way and make it very unrealistic for him but I also donít care to get hit in the face. So I ended up moving way before he could hit me while still telling him to slow down and work on each move. This threw him off since I am not in normal position to work his tech and I am telling him again and again to slow down. Well he is getting more and more frustrated and sloppier and sloppier with his form. I was able to stop him and make him move one move at a time very slow. And show him why, when, how then continue on. I am doing my best to have patience with him, I myself am a slow learner but I am working on it. And I learn as much as he does when I work with him and see how he does it vs. how I do it years later.

    I know I am not the first and will not be the last to be in this situation, I just wanted to ask those that have been there. What do you recommend I do, just keep working with this guy, ask to work with someone else, skip the phase one class. I donít want to quit going and I am grateful that I am aloud to attend the extra classes. But I am also not an instructor and I donít want to step on any toes.
    A black belt covers 2" of your butt. Covering the rest is soley up to you

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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    kick him in the balls and say nothing when it is your turn to do delayed sword.....Your point will be felt and understood. People like this are dangerous, words only go so far. Remember that pain sells...and that safety is above everything!!

    -Regards Carl

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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    If he's going that fast he's probably doing the inward block incorrectly, in that its not aligned with the neutral bow. So, he can probably be bowled over easily. Do the grab to the shoulder and keep coming in, as if to hug or tackle, even medium speed. A sloppy quick block and stance won't stand up to your rushing mass, and you'll either have pressed in so close he can't use his arms, or you give him a smile and a thunk with your left fist. The only way he'll get the proper structure is to slow the hell down - he's got to make the block and stance work before anything else. Speed doesn't make up for poor form, so make him want to slow down to understand why you keep blowing through his initial defense.

    Good luck, LOL

    Steven Brown
    UKF
    Last edited by bujuts; 11-15-2007 at 10:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    I might ask the instructor, privately and away from normal mat time, to pair me up with a different student, for the reasons you outlined here.

    Or ... I might just skip the white belt review classes for a month or two.

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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    I might ask the instructor, privately and away from normal mat time, to pair me up with a different student, for the reasons you outlined here.

    Or ... I might just skip the white belt review classes for a month or two.

    Well itís not just white belt material; they have a mix of students and work a range of stuff.

    But yeah I may have to ask to be switched out with someone.

    Thanks guys for the advice, and although the urge to cause some degree of pain did pop into my mind I donít think that is the most correct way to work with this guy. He is just new and Iím sure he feels overwhelmed as I did when I was new. When I saw everyone else able to move faster and with more skill than I was able too it motivated me to do better. Sometimes that motivation can lead to mistakes made due to haste, and frustration. I will give him some more time but I am going to probable speak with my instructor and with the fellow student.

    I just want to make this guy realize that it does not benefit him to fly through this stuff and have horrible form just to go fast. As I used to say ďIf it donít go, chrome itĒ meaning with out skill speed is trash.
    A black belt covers 2" of your butt. Covering the rest is soley up to you

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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    I wouldn't stop going to that class if I were you. It's your class to go to and no student should be able to ruin the class for others.


    I like the 'kick him in the groin' idea. Does he listen to the instructor? If so, have the instructor come and watch his 'form' when he does it.

    You might also tell him that if he doesn't use control, he won't have a partner much longer.

    I can be an 'in your face' kind of person so I'd let him know that if he doesn't slow down and start using control that you're going to hurt him and that wouldn't help either of you (although it might make you feel better.)

    Also, is he interested in promoting at all? If so, point out that a total lack of control like he has will get him kicked out of the class.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
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    Talking Re: Ok need some advice again

    Most things can be best addressed at the source. Maybe he honestly has no idea of your feelings or how others feel about what is going on.

    Sometimes a simple polite discussion with the instructor is all it takes to fix something. Tell your instructor you like the student and think they are a good person...BUT...

    I am betting they will address and fix the problem without any hurt feelings or bruised toes.
    www.hunterskarate.com

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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    Quote Originally Posted by hemi View Post
    Ok need some advice again, I have been attending the phase one class (white-adv Orange belts) as well as my phase 2 class, (purple- red belts).

    In the phase one class I have been finding myself partnered up with a very new white belt. This guy is super nice and well he tries hard but he lacks somewhat, ok horribly in the control, and coordination, dept. Iím not knocking him hell I know I was like a bull in a china shop when I started. But here is my situation; I am most of the time partnered up with this guy. I think the rest of the class is afraid of him since he goes way to fast and has low control and coordination. With that said I get hit a lot not the normal bump that happens when people are going at it 100%. I get hit while doing delayed sword. And not just a love tap it only took once and I block and move and do what ever it takes to keep myself from getting hit short of popping him one good time.

    I am not an instructor, or in any kind of assistant role just a student getting a refresher since I had to quit for a while long story. The second thing is I know my instructor knows what I am up against and I think this is kind of a character building exercise of sorts. I have on more than one occasion given my instructor a look that said 1000 words while working with this guy but nothing was said. So I have to believe he knows but wants to see how I handle this.

    In the last few classes we started out with the most basic tech delayed sword. I was partnered up with bruiser and we were doing the tech. Well I did it and I moved like normal, that I think intimidated this new guy so my next time I slowed way down. But he kept on going 100 mph, even thought I told him slow down and work on form speed will come later. Well he just went faster and seemed to get frustrated and hit me more and harder and this time in the face. Now I donít like to dodge and move out of the way and make it very unrealistic for him but I also donít care to get hit in the face. So I ended up moving way before he could hit me while still telling him to slow down and work on each move. This threw him off since I am not in normal position to work his tech and I am telling him again and again to slow down. Well he is getting more and more frustrated and sloppier and sloppier with his form. I was able to stop him and make him move one move at a time very slow. And show him why, when, how then continue on. I am doing my best to have patience with him, I myself am a slow learner but I am working on it. And I learn as much as he does when I work with him and see how he does it vs. how I do it years later.

    I know I am not the first and will not be the last to be in this situation, I just wanted to ask those that have been there. What do you recommend I do, just keep working with this guy, ask to work with someone else, skip the phase one class. I donít want to quit going and I am grateful that I am aloud to attend the extra classes. But I am also not an instructor and I donít want to step on any toes.
    Kenpo is built off striking set and blocking set. When he does his right inward block to your right arm, allow your right arm to do a rolling backnuckel and stop right before you smack him. Look at him and ask if he wants to learn, or if he wants to see how hard both of you can hit.
    Brad Marshall SP
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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    Hey Hemi-

    I do not know that technique but that doesn't matter. This is not your problem, your instructor's job is to INSTRUCT, you need to tell him what you posted to us here. That is the first issue-

    If this happens before you have a chance to speak with your teacher, just tell him that if he cannot control himself than you will perform likewise when it is your turn.

    I have had this happen as both a student and now as a teacher, both times the only thing that worked was "flushing the guy" pretty good, then making light of it afterwards: "see, that is what it feels like, gotta love Kenpo".

    Hemi, you way overthink these interactions...LOL

    I tell them, if you hit me hard I hit you hard---and so it goes
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    I would speak to the instructor and if he doesn't settle it for you then I would show the guy what it feels like to get blasted. A student that hurts others needs to know how it feels on the other side.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    We've always been told to use control because if you hit your partner too hard he should hit back just as hard

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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    Oooh Oooh, I know the answer to this one, I WAS that guy, if you dont tell him he'll never know. Simply say dude, back off that hurts and show him the correct way how to execute the strike. Also tell him 10% on people 100% on the bag. Your instructor will probably thank you for it.


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    Talking Re: Ok need some advice again

    Maybe offer some constructive criticism after class, with a positive twist. Perhaps, acknowledging the students enthusiasm and willingness to learn but the force by which they are striking you is inappropriate and to please relax more and focus on the mechanics of the technique, not the speed/contact.

    Since you indicated that you were once like a "bull in a china shop" relate that you also were in a similar situation at that stage and that you too had to back off the speed and force to learn the technique more effectively.

    BTW, I am currently in the "bull in a china shop" stage right now myself ahaha.
    Last edited by Lifespath; 11-15-2007 at 07:20 PM. Reason: added wording

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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    This begs the question, how do you know if you are that guy?

    I only ask because I find that I like more "realistic" training and I often wonder if others in the class dont enjoy my realism Obviously I have control and I dont hit anything I didnt plan to hit, but are my hits too hard? 'dcastiglione' mentioned 10% people, 100% bag, but what if my 10% is another person's 80%? Its hard to tell when people dont speak up...
    Semper Fidelis

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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
    This begs the question, how do you know if you are that guy?

    I only ask because I find that I like more "realistic" training and I often wonder if others in the class dont enjoy my realism Obviously I have control and I dont hit anything I didnt plan to hit, but are my hits too hard? 'dcastiglione' mentioned 10% people, 100% bag, but what if my 10% is another person's 80%? Its hard to tell when people dont speak up...

    A compound fracture may be the first clue
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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    Are you guys NOT striking vital points? 10% should do all but remove the "uke" from the class... During this "Delayed Sword" what are you hitting?
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    I had this recently, luckily for me, my guy quit in less than a month. There are three things in order that I would do:

    1. Speak to the offending student. Maybe he does not know what he is doing. He is new. Tell him about control and what he should be doing. Do not assume he is supposed to know that he should not be hitting you the wya he is. You telling him to slow down is not the smae as telling him about control.

    2. If that fails, talk to the instrutor. Have the instructor tell him to use control.

    3. Lastly, I would say you as a customer have a right to not get beat up and would be able to refuse to work with the guy without you instructor giving you too much of a problem if you did 1 and 2 before getting to this point.

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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    I would remind him about his control and technique first time. Second time ask the instructor too look at it and give him some pointers. Third time remind him that you too can hit hard. 4th time drop him on his A#$. Then remind him to use control or it's going to happen again and again.

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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    If he's not responding to your advice to slow it down and focus on mechanics, then try another strategy.

    Make him do it by the numbers. Address it as a learning excercise in which you are trying to help him ('cause that is what you're doing..right? )

    Try this: break off and stand beside him. Voice that you can relate to his frustration because you've been there. Tell him you're going to show him something that worked for you and a lot of other students in learning the technique.

    Break each move down and assign it a number. Say "ONE" and execute the inward block. Say "TWO" and execute the kick. Say "THREE" and execute the sword hand. All in the air right along with him. Do it together. By breaking it down in this manner you can better control the pace of the excericise.

    When it seems apparent that he is able to keep this pace, pair off again, but keep it "by the numbers." Advise him that you're now taking it to the next level and will allow him to focus more on his targets now that he's getting the gist of the actual mechanics. Grab him or throw the punch, however you learned Delayed Sword, and say "ONE" and let him block. Then say "TWO" to indicate the kick is next. Then "THREE" for the sword hand. You still dictate the pace in which he executes each maneuver.

    Throughout the excercise offer positive reinforcement. When he uses control and proper body mechanics tell him so. Reinforce the "good behavior."

    Working the technique "by the numbers" in this way should help you control his pace a little better as well as help him actually learn to execute the technique properly...and learn some control and coordination.

    ...but if that fails, just do a cup-check on him and see how he likes it. LOL
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Ė Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Ok need some advice again

    Quote Originally Posted by hemi View Post
    I am not an instructor, or in any kind of assistant role just a student getting a refresher since I had to quit for a while long story. The second thing is I know my instructor knows what I am up against and I think this is kind of a character building exercise of sorts. I have on more than one occasion given my instructor a look that said 1000 words while working with this guy but nothing was said. So I have to believe he knows but wants to see how I handle this.
    I think this could very well be the case. I have noticed that instructors will often pair certain people together because each person has a quality that the other person can "benefit" from. So in this case, If your instructor is doing nothing, he must either a) believe that you can take the punishment, at least for as long as it takes this other student to learn control, or b) that you yourself have the tools to teach this other student the meaning of control, or both a and b.

    As far as showing him the way, I agree with everyone else here... speak to him as you are doing the techs, maybe even take it step by step or "by the numbers", let him know that control is more important than anything else at this point, and you WILL go as hard as he goes. (I thought that was the kenpo rule anyway, you go as hard as you want your partner to go). And if he goes hard again, well, he's been fairly warned... give him the same back. And don't be mad about it or have a bad attitude, just give him back what he gives to you.

    After all, kenpo is about sharing, right? Because "whenever we pass it down, it always comes back." At least that's what my instructor says.
    "Your kung fu's no good..."
    *Warrior, Scholar*

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