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Thread: On Actual Combat

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    Default On Actual Combat

    Short of going out and getting involved in an actual confrontation, there's no one way to train for actual combat.

    It is my opinion that in general, martial arts training uses 4 primary tools to prepare us for actual combat

    1) Techniques
    2) Drills
    3) Sparring
    4) Forms

    I hold that each strengthens a different area that will aid one in the event of actual combat. As a very wise friend of mine once said, "They teach different pieces of a puzzle."

    I know everyone had their personal preference, but my primary question is in regards to the importance of each tool.

    What "weight" do you assign to each tool and why?

    Please list the tools in the order of importance you feel it has in your training, assign it an actual weight (25%, etc), and tell us why you feel that way.

    If you feel that there is another "tool" that I did not include, please feel free to add it to your list.

    I expect this should be an interesting and educational discussion.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Short of going out and getting involved in an actual confrontation, there's no one way to train for actual combat.
    .
    You are not talking about combat, but about street fights.

    Actually Celtic I used the "Tally Ho Club", some "College Dances", and the "Brave Bull Dance Hall", amongst other training areas.

    Which, I guess in today's world is considered evil.

    Back then I still remember Lee Garrett, Loren Pryor and Bustor Norton taking me out to the Tally Ho club with the "intention" of finding someone to practice the "Figure 4 Choke out" on.

    My trainers said I needed some "for real" feedback.

    After getting past the apprehension and the doubt, it was a valuable exercise.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    FGarza is offline
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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    If your drills also include Adrenalin stress training, then I agree. I also think Kenpoists need to develop relationships with those of other martial arts styles to grow.

    I started out as Boxer, then went to Kenpo. After I got my brown belt in Kenpo, I started cross-training in Escrima and Silat, then Judo, then Muy Thai.

    These other Arts helped me understand my Kenpo and also slightly alter it for use against these other styles.
    Humility is not thinking less of yourself. It's thinking of yourself, less.

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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Actually Celtic I used the "Tally Ho Club", some "College Dances", and the "Brave Bull Dance Hall", amongst other training areas.
    This method still goes on to a small degree in some areas.

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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    Some vets are actually a little sensitive about the word "combat". Earlier this year, a brown belt vet (USMC, two Iraq tours, purple heart, friends killed at his side, the whole bit), got in the face of one of the bigger names in kenpo (with no military experience) about his use of the word in his curriculum. It hit a pretty sensitive spot, and I have seen the same reaction from a number of vets.

    I use the word sparingly myself, so when someone has been "in combat", I know they've seen the animal, one that I'll likely never see.

    Just adding my dos centavos. Not correcting, just sharing.

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    Excellent point Steven

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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    Quote Originally Posted by bujuts View Post
    Some vets are actually a little sensitive about the word "combat". Earlier this year, a brown belt vet (USMC, two Iraq tours, purple heart, friends killed at his side, the whole bit), got in the face of one of the bigger names in kenpo (with no military experience) about his use of the word in his curriculum. It hit a pretty sensitive spot, and I have seen the same reaction from a number of vets.

    I use the word sparingly myself, so when someone has been "in combat", I know they've seen the animal, one that I'll likely never see.

    Just adding my dos centavos. Not correcting, just sharing.

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF
    Since I'm a vet then I guess that makes it okay for me to use it.

    Any chance we can get this thread on topic? I was really hoping for some decent discussion on what WEIGHTS people apply to the differnet areas of their training.

    Thanks!
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    Granted I am no expert, but of these listed.

    1)Techniques
    2) Drills
    3) Sparring
    4) Forms

    I would say, in my opinion 60% to #1, because that to me is what Kenpo is? That’s the meat and potatoes of the system.

    #2 10% they are an important part of the big picture.
    #4 same 10% for the same reason listed above.

    #3 20% as to me it will help in so many areas, conditioning, fight response, pain and working through it. The idea of getting hit, of hitting a person and the list goes on and on.
    A black belt covers 2" of your butt. Covering the rest is soley up to you

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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    In order of importantance, I would:

    Sparring: 30% HUGE. If you don't know your own limits, you won't ever be able to defend yourself. Period.

    Technique: 30% Without proper technique it won't ever work to its potential.

    Drills: 30% If you don't practice the movements, you won't develop muscle memory.

    Forms: 10% Practicing this way was never a real big focus in my career. I see the point of forms but just don't put much emphasis on it.

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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    An assailant on the street is nothing compared to what our troops go through. I know this because I've gone. My job is to go with the Marines wherever they go and perform my medical job under ridiculous circumstances to save lives.

    No one will ever convince me a street incident is even close to the daily barrage of attacks one goes through during war.

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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    Sparring - specifically hard sparring allowing multiple ranges
    30% - The will to keep going when you are hurt is vital and you won't ever learn that doing a form or a tech. For those of us civilians who have never been forced to dig deep, this level of sparring is a must. If a student has already gone through this because of some other life experience, you could downgrade this, but I consider it important. Plus you get the whole "resisting opponent" experience.

    Drills - specifically, spontaneous resisted drilling
    30% These build muscle memory and instinctive response to your opponents motion, build the ability to read and feel where your opponent is going.

    Techs -
    25% - Ideals of motion, ingraining basic defensive and offensive movement, but have low spontenaity.

    Forms-
    15% - Ingrain basics of motion, are "baby steps" to learning how to use and move the body. Higher kenpo forms are generally reiterations of a given SD tech sequences.
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    I would give 35% to Sparring, this best trains you for the unexpected, and shows you how to apply what you've learned in the other areas in a stressed, spontaneous situation (if it's not a relaxed sparring session). Sparring also develops your stamina, durability (if blows are solid enough), intelligence, and speed of thought. And then I would add on another 10% to this for when you spar with different people, and people of different styles. This will really open your eyes.

    I would give equal 20% parts to both Drills and Techniques. The techs give you ideal ways of defending and/or counterattacking and teach you how to use your tools and motion. The drills hammer these ideas home so that in a stressful situation, your learned movements are reinforced.

    The last 15% would go to forms, they act as exercises to further teach movement, coordination and reinforcement of technique. Also if you do forms as a continuous exercise, it can also help build stamina.
    "Your kung fu's no good..."
    *Warrior, Scholar*

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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    Quote Originally Posted by FGarza View Post
    If your drills also include Adrenalin stress training, then I agree. I also think Kenpoists need to develop relationships with those of other martial arts styles to grow.

    I started out as Boxer, then went to Kenpo. After I got my brown belt in Kenpo, I started cross-training in Escrima and Silat, then Judo, then Muy Thai.

    These other Arts helped me understand my Kenpo and also slightly alter it for use against these other styles.
    Nice.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    Getting back on topic.....

    This is the way I personally break it out: (at the moment anyway)
    1) Techniques (40%)
    2) Drills (25%)
    3) Sparring (25%)
    4) Forms (10%)

    To me......techniques do an awesome job of teaching the underlying principles that are the cornerstone of the system. (* Knowledge is not enough.....)

    The Drills and Sparring do an awesome job of helping us to apply what we have learned outside the realm of a controled environment. For example, when sparring you don't know what kind of "attack" is coming. In drills like the circle of humiliation you get to see how spontaneous you really are. This tools are necessary for proper application of principle. (*...one must be able to apply that knowledge.- Bruce Lee)

    To me...the forms to hold importance, teach and reinforce some lessons, but mostly IMHO they're just a way to practice when you don't have a real body to work on!


    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    Just keep in mind that if you are not mentally prepared at the right time!! all of the rest means nothing. All the physical preperation won't overcome a un- prepared mind. Your mental state at the time of an attack or confrontation will determine the outcome. Luck is a good thing to have on your side as well!

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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    My own breakdown would be close to yours Crippler, with the caveat that sparring has to include the training. I have been to countless places where people train for hours on end with fight stopping maneuvers only to slap on pads that really protect nothing and fight like kickboxers (barely... the point being they lightly tap each other and abandon everything they spent hours learning).

    Sparring in a kenpo class should look like two people of that art fighting... 2 cents worth...

    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    Quote Originally Posted by T. Bulot View Post
    Just keep in mind that if you are not mentally prepared at the right time!! all of the rest means nothing. All the physical preperation won't overcome a un- prepared mind. Your mental state at the time of an attack or confrontation will determine the outcome. Luck is a good thing to have on your side as well!
    What aspect or method do you feel is needed in ones training to develop the "mental" aspect?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    crippler
    I would say about 60% would be sparring, 30% drills & techniques and 10% mental
    we do lot of continual sparring so you have to react to getting hit & still able to come back.
    Bernie GOrak
    5th degree kenpo

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    Default Re: On Actual Combat

    They are all equally important! One without the rest usually equates to an incomplete martial artist. But you forgot Bunkai or did you consider that part of sparring? I believe they are two different beasts of the same family, but distinctly different in their implementation.
    Devil Dog Mark
    Hawaiian Kempo & Okinawan Kubudo

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