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Thread: The Search for Knowledge

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    Default The Search for Knowledge

    The Search for Knowledge

    I have been blessed over the years to be able to train with some great martial artist, as well as pass on that knowledge with those who come to me for knowledge in the art. As I continue to grow within the art I have come to realize how important it is to seek higher understanding of the material I have. Better understanding doesn’t mean more material, but learning what makes the material we have work more effective. For me the hardest concept to grasp is knowing what questions to ask, and what to pass on. However with the help from others I have been able to step from within the system and start viewing it from outside the curriculum.

    To ask why we do something this way are that way has opened many doors and brought forth many more questions, simultaneously translating down to my students. I have a young 10 year old lady who has been taking private lesson from me for some time know. As we were working on circling windmills, I pointed out that the finger strikes were found in finger set. She looked at me and asked: How many finger strikes were in finger set could be found in the tech, and should the execution of the finger strikes in the tech be applied to finger set itself. I smiled and said why don’t you tell me. Last night she presented me a paper on the topic, which I will share with you all later tonight.

    Here is the point I would like to share with you all. There may come a time when our students progress beyond our level of understanding, regardless of how much we train and seek out our own understanding. This will happen if we become complacent with our studies. I feel that there may come a time when we need to suggest to our students that they seek out those who can help them in their journey. The last thing any of us should do is hold back a student due to our lack of progression.

    My Deepest Respect
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    The Search for Knowledge

    I have been blessed over the years to be able to train with some great martial artist, as well as pass on that knowledge with those who come to me for knowledge in the art. As I continue to grow within the art I have come to realize how important it is to seek higher understanding of the material I have. Better understanding doesn’t mean more material, but learning what makes the material we have work more effective. For me the hardest concept to grasp is knowing what questions to ask, and what to pass on. However with the help from others I have been able to step from within the system and start viewing it from outside the curriculum.

    To ask why we do something this way are that way has opened many doors and brought forth many more questions, simultaneously translating down to my students. I have a young 10 year old lady who has been taking private lesson from me for some time know. As we were working on circling windmills, I pointed out that the finger strikes were found in finger set. She looked at me and asked: How many finger strikes were in finger set could be found in the tech, and should the execution of the finger strikes in the tech be applied to finger set itself. I smiled and said why don’t you tell me. Last night she presented me a paper on the topic, which I will share with you all later tonight.

    Here is the point I would like to share with you all. There may come a time when our students progress beyond our level of understanding, regardless of how much we train and seek out our own understanding. This will happen if we become complacent with our studies. I feel that there may come a time when we need to suggest to our students that they seek out those who can help them in their journey. The last thing any of us should do is hold back a student due to our lack of progression.

    My Deepest Respect
    Your post is VERY insightful Brad! Thank you. It really shows that you're the type of man that puts his entire self into his pursuit.

    One thing I may add or suggest is that (in regards to the line that I underlined) it could happen under a different circumstance, and that is if the student has a tremendous potential....beyond our own. That could happen too.

    I especially appreciate your insight that if we are honest with ourselves in this circumstance then we do what's best for THEM...and help them gain beyond what you can give. That shows that you're a GOOD instructor in that you're KEY concern is their growth and benefit. I personally think it's best to aim that EVERY student could surpass me if they have THAT level of potential...because that means that I'm not holding back, that I'm giving them the best of what I have to give.

    Thanks for sharing man.

    Your Brother
    John
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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    Nice insights.

    I find many concentrate on "how much" they can "learn" or fit into their curriculums. I too agree that it's not "how much" material I can learn, but rather "how much" ABOUT the material can I learn. Roughly translated, I prefer quality over quantity.

    I've yet to have a student surpass me (not being immodest, I just don't have that many students..lol) but it wouldn't bother me if they did in some way; especially if they open my eyes to something new and help me to be better.

    I do believe it would be the honorable thing to do to recognize that you have taught a student all you can and encourage them to seek training elsewhere ....I wonder how many do that though.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    I find many concentrate on "how much" they can "learn" or fit into their curriculums. I too agree that it's not "how much" material I can learn, but rather "how much" ABOUT the material can I learn. Roughly translated, I prefer quality over quantity.



    I do believe it would be the honorable thing to do to recognize that you have taught a student all you can and encourage them to seek training elsewhere ....I wonder how many do that though.
    I especially like that first paragraph! How MUCH you KNOW won't save your life, How well you DO how much you know....may.

    As for the second paragraph: I doubt that many do so. It's an ego thing. I doubt that there's that many people teaching MA who have Mr. Marshall's high sense of honesty and honor. Two reasons he's accomplished all he has, and why people seek him out for instruction.

    Your Brother
    John
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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    Brother John,

    Your words honor me Sir, thank you.

    I wish everyone the best in their journey.
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    I used to teach Bible classes. One thing I learned is that no one can know everything. It is ok to say I don't know and find someone with the answer and get back to the student. Part of being a great teacher is not having all the answers, but knowing where you can get them from if you need them.

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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    The Connection Between Circling Windmills and Finger Set

    By Margaret Cunliffe

    In the technique Circling Windmills (2nd Brown, # 8) many movements are comprised of movements from Finger Set 1 (Blue Belt). But how many movements are there? I think there are about 5 movements from Finger Set in Circling Windmills. Now I will explain where I think these movements are and why I think they are there.

    In step 5 of Circling Windmills, just after a left upward block and right downward hammer fist, the 2 strikes from Set 8 of circling Windmills come in. Described in the manual as for Step A of Set 8 as “ Execute a right outside downward parry (in the shape of a crane). Without Hesitation, continue the flow of your right arm circling from outside in as your right hand torques inwardly into a right inward horizontal finger slice (palm up) at eye level. Instantly reverse the direction of your slice and with a loose hand, torque a right outward horizontal finger slice (palm down) at eye level. Be sure to use the weight of your arm as a contributing factor to your strikes.”

    The step after step 5 is basically the same thing, with the opposite hands. Both of these steps occur in Circling Windmills, as well as Finger Set 1. These make up the first two steps in Circling Windmills that come from Finger Set 1.

    The next movement that is in both Finger Set 1 and Circling Windmills is in Step 7 of Circling Windmills, and is Set 5, Part A, of Finger Set 1. This set step is described as “ Bring Both hands to the front and center of your body. Position them palms open and facing you. To gain this position have your left hand swing from right to left as if executing a left outward downward elbow strike. Simultaneously have your right arm simulate a right inward downward elbow strike”. This step also occurs twice between both step 3 and step 5 of Circling Windmills, and step 6 and step 8 of Circling Windmills. These make up the 3rd and 4th movements shared in Circling Windmills and Finger Set 1.

    The final intersecting step is step 8 of Circling Windmills and Set 9, Part A of Finger Set 1. This set step is described as, “ Execute a left inward diagonal heel palm parry. This parry then changes its path and becomes a left outside downward parry (in the shape of the crane) finishing on the left hip (unclenched, palm up). Simultaneous with this action execute a right inward circular five- finger claw at eye level. Be sure that this claw occurs “ in sync” with your left hand finishing at your left hip. Instantly reverse the direction of your claw and torque a right outward circular five- finger claw at eye level.” This occurs at step 8 of Circling Windmills followed by a right scoop kick.

    There are five movements from Finger Set 1 in Circling Windmills if my estimate is correct, and I believe that Circling Windmills was made to showcase how you could use Finger Set 1 and apply it into technique use. I hope you enjoyed my theory on how many movements there are in both Circling Windmills and in Finger Set 1.

    Please remember she is only 10 years old, and within her paper I have found where the future of the art is headed.
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Here is the point I would like to share with you all. There may come a time when our students progress beyond our level of understanding, regardless of how much we train and seek out our own understanding. This will happen if we become complacent with our studies. I feel that there may come a time when we need to suggest to our students that they seek out those who can help them in their journey. The last thing any of us should do is hold back a student due to our lack of progression.
    I am just curious to who is holding anyone back.

    It's a given, kindergarden, grade school, Jr. High, High school, BA degree, MS Degree, Ph.D., and then on to "other topics" you want to become a craftsman in.

    It's the same with Kenpo.

    Which is why we start everyone out with a goal setting program.

    It their goal is different than what we choose to know and to teach, we obviously send them to who can give them what they want.

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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    I've yet to have a student surpass me (not being immodest, I just don't have that many students..lol) but it wouldn't bother me if they did in some way; especially if they open my eyes to something new and help me to be better.
    LOL.

    What about their kicks, flexibility, and movement master-keys.

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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    The Connection Between Circling Windmills and Finger Set

    By Margaret Cunliffe

    In the technique Circling Windmills (2nd Brown, # 8) many movements are comprised of movements from Finger Set 1 (Blue Belt). But how many movements are there? I think there are about 5 movements from Finger Set in Circling Windmills. Now I will explain where I think these movements are and why I think they are there.

    In step 5 of Circling Windmills, just after a left upward block and right downward hammer fist, the 2 strikes from Set 8 of circling Windmills come in. Described in the manual as for Step A of Set 8 as “ Execute a right outside downward parry (in the shape of a crane). Without Hesitation, continue the flow of your right arm circling from outside in as your right hand torques inwardly into a right inward horizontal finger slice (palm up) at eye level. Instantly reverse the direction of your slice and with a loose hand, torque a right outward horizontal finger slice (palm down) at eye level. Be sure to use the weight of your arm as a contributing factor to your strikes.”

    The step after step 5 is basically the same thing, with the opposite hands. Both of these steps occur in Circling Windmills, as well as Finger Set 1. These make up the first two steps in Circling Windmills that come from Finger Set 1.

    The next movement that is in both Finger Set 1 and Circling Windmills is in Step 7 of Circling Windmills, and is Set 5, Part A, of Finger Set 1. This set step is described as “ Bring Both hands to the front and center of your body. Position them palms open and facing you. To gain this position have your left hand swing from right to left as if executing a left outward downward elbow strike. Simultaneously have your right arm simulate a right inward downward elbow strike”. This step also occurs twice between both step 3 and step 5 of Circling Windmills, and step 6 and step 8 of Circling Windmills. These make up the 3rd and 4th movements shared in Circling Windmills and Finger Set 1.

    The final intersecting step is step 8 of Circling Windmills and Set 9, Part A of Finger Set 1. This set step is described as, “ Execute a left inward diagonal heel palm parry. This parry then changes its path and becomes a left outside downward parry (in the shape of the crane) finishing on the left hip (unclenched, palm up). Simultaneous with this action execute a right inward circular five- finger claw at eye level. Be sure that this claw occurs “ in sync” with your left hand finishing at your left hip. Instantly reverse the direction of your claw and torque a right outward circular five- finger claw at eye level.” This occurs at step 8 of Circling Windmills followed by a right scoop kick.

    There are five movements from Finger Set 1 in Circling Windmills if my estimate is correct, and I believe that Circling Windmills was made to showcase how you could use Finger Set 1 and apply it into technique use. I hope you enjoyed my theory on how many movements there are in both Circling Windmills and in Finger Set 1.

    Please remember she is only 10 years old, and within her paper I have found where the future of the art is headed.
    Did dad help her?

    If not, I am amazed!

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    Lightbulb Re: The Search for Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    The last thing any of us should do is hold back a student due to our lack of progression.
    Very well put! All too often though instructors try to limit their students to just what they themselves can teach them. Sometimes suggesting that they do not venture outside their system or the instructor's range of understanding/skills.

    I might argue that to be a teacher means you yourself must continue to learn and expand both your knowledge and skills so as to improve the quality of your instruction. But there are instructors out there too biased to their own teachings to expand their horizons let alone their students'.

    This is just a plain shame as far as I am concerned. Seems to me that those instructors have not learned one of the most important lessons that martial arts can teach us....which is to always strive to better ourselves in everything we do.
    Devil Dog Mark
    Hawaiian Kempo & Okinawan Kubudo

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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Did dad help her?

    If not, I am amazed!
    No he did not help I have verified this. This isnt the first paper she has wrote for me, and her personel form that she developed with the written supportive documentation is also very advanced.
    Brad Marshall SP
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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    I am just curious to who is holding anyone back.

    It's a given, kindergarden, grade school, Jr. High, High school, BA degree, MS Degree, Ph.D., and then on to "other topics" you want to become a craftsman in.

    It's the same with Kenpo.

    Which is why we start everyone out with a goal setting program.

    It their goal is different than what we choose to know and to teach, we obviously send them to who can give them what they want.
    Its when a instructor cant progress without a teacher, and their students become stagnate.
    Brad Marshall SP
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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Its when a instructor cant progress without a teacher, and their students become stagnate.
    There are plenty of great teaching aids out there.

    Books, DVD's, and people.

    And if their students get bored, then it is NEVER the material but a trainer who does not know how to motivate.

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    FGarza is offline
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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    Brad,
    As many have already written, good post...

    Sometimes as instructors we don't really listen to what a student needs or wants. And even worse our egos get in the way of their learning.

    It seems some instructors seemed threatened by a students' question, when in reality it's an opportunity for learning.

    With all this said, some students think they are dedicated, but really aren't. But a lot of this can be avoided when we set a good example by how hard we train.

    I love when a student/instructor is thinking about a technique and asks questions. It's what makes Kenpo such an incredible Art. It's even better when they've worked through their idea and can make it work.
    Humility is not thinking less of yourself. It's thinking of yourself, less.

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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by FGarza View Post
    Brad,
    As many have already written, good post...

    Sometimes as instructors we don't really listen to what a student needs or wants. And even worse our egos get in the way of their learning.

    It seems some instructors seemed threatened by a students' question, when in reality it's an opportunity for learning.

    With all this said, some students think they are dedicated, but really aren't. But a lot of this can be avoided when we set a good example by how hard we train.

    I love when a student/instructor is thinking about a technique and asks questions. It's what makes Kenpo such an incredible Art. It's even better when they've worked through their idea and can make it work.

    Mr. Frank,

    This is so true, I also love the depth of the students insight. When it comes to areas I dont fully understand, I go searching, and I try to go straight to the source.

    Thanks Brother
    Brad Marshall SP
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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    There are plenty of great teaching aids out there.

    Books, DVD's, and people.

    And if their students get bored, then it is NEVER the material but a trainer who does not know how to motivate.
    Dr John,

    I agree Sir, however when say a first or second degree independent black belt, doesnt search out the material,a teacher,or personel growth do we see there students failure to be motivated, it is the trainer which is related to in my primary post. The student may search it out, and while the material may help them, their understanding may be limited based on their level of comprehensive knowledge.

    As always sir I enjoy your thought provoking insght.
    Brad Marshall SP
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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    Dr.John,

    One thing you mentioned that is very important. That is the setting of goals and a reasonable time to reach them. Setting a goal makes you focus your efforts to attaining those goals in a timely manner.

    I remember my son had vowed to make his Green Belt by the end of the year. He made his Brown by then. That is focusing on what you want to accomplish and sticking to it.
    Goals are very important.

    I amMost Respectfully,
    Sifuroy

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    Default Re: The Search for Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Dr John,

    I agree Sir, however when say a first or second degree independent black belt, doesnt search out the material,a teacher,or personel growth do we see there students failure to be motivated, it is the trainer which is related to in my primary post. The student may search it out, and while the material may help them, their understanding may be limited based on their level of comprehensive knowledge..
    I answered this on a new thread on the School Owner's forum.

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