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Thread: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

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    Default Krav Maga or Kenpo?


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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    It's been my experience that the two arts are very similar. This comes as no surprise as they both fundamentally deal with "what works" in regards to self-defense. It's only logical that many of the same principles would be applied and that they would appear to be very much alike in application.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    I recently switch from Kenpo to Krav, not because one is better than the other, but do to distance traveled and time needed to get there. I can say that there are more similarities than differences. Some move for move are exactly the same. I'm fairly sure that Imi and Ed never met, so I can only guess at the following:

    1. They came upon the same conclusion that a move works.

    2. They both borrowed it from another style.

    3. As the systems progressed perhaps they were "borrowed" Hell if it works, it works.

    Just because I learned it in Kenpo doesn't mean that it only meant for Kenpo or any other system.

    Just my 1 cent, cuz my 2 cents are worthless.

    P.S. I still read KT, because the info and opinions here cross all MA styles and no one seems to be out to prove themselves the better than the next guy. Thanks and keep up the good work.


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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    Yeah, no matter what system I look at I can find at least a couple of things I have seen/done before in kempo. Keep in mind, back in the day everyone one took a little from everyone else and then just tried to build upon it for their own system. So you will see similiar things even across the systems from different countries.


    And, in today's world it is being strongly encouraged again. The average martial artist today has become a scholar of the various martial arts even if they are true to their "base" system. Especially with MMA becoming so popular.

    This is a good thing in my opinion!
    Devil Dog Mark
    Hawaiian Kempo & Okinawan Kubudo

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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    I've always said that Krav Maga is basically old kenpo.

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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    I've done some krav work and it is similiar. Imi Lichtenfeld (Founder of Krav Maga) took what worked and created on the first mixed martial arts. I believe, like Kenpo, it is a living art and as long as it works it's good. I've been looking at getting an instructor rating with Krav but just need the time.
    "Fear is the true opiate of combat."

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    nelson (10-15-2007)

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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadrunner View Post
    I've always said that Krav Maga is basically old kenpo.
    Actually, I'm pretty sure the philosophical differences are vast.

    I've not seen 5 year olds taking Krav Maga.

    I've not seen soccer moms telling the Krave Maga trainer that he needs to communicate nicer to her children, and do a little fun and games like patty-cake, patty-cake...

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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

    Please take a look at these links and tell me if you think this looks one heck of a lot like Kenpo to you.
    In appearance, yes, sort of.

    In the manner of practicing for REAL, it's NOT the same in many of the kenpo schools I've seen. Much more physical, and much more contact.

    Watered down for the kids, women and families.

    Don't get me wrong, I do LOVE Kenpo, and I've been teaching it for almost 4 decades...

    ...but I do wonder sometimes at people I see...

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    nelson (10-21-2007)

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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    Dear Dr. John:

    Thanks for your reply. Your comment:

    "In the manner of practicing for REAL, it's NOT the same in many of the kenpo schools I've seen. Much more physical, and much more contact."

    I guess I was blessed in my Kenpo training as our instructor specialized in "street kenpo" and we used live weapons, knife and stick, in street demonstrations. When I first started Kenpo we were the first 16 year olds ever let into class. Most of my fellow students were steel mill rats and packing plant workers. No women were allowed in the early days as our instructor refused to "lighten up" on the PT. My first PT instructor for class warmups was an ex-marine corps DI. I'm not saying that this is the best way I'm only saying how it was in the "day."

    As in interesting side bar we are gettiing a group of MA's together in my area from different styles for some invitation only "old style" training sessions and I don't mean the beer. We will be working on handgun retention and disarming techniques along with knife and club offense and defense.

    A good time will be had by all I'm sure.

    Nelson Kari

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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Actually, I'm pretty sure the philosophical differences are vast.

    I've not seen 5 year olds taking Krav Maga.

    I've not seen soccer moms telling the Krave Maga trainer that he needs to communicate nicer to her children, and do a little fun and games like patty-cake, patty-cake...
    You've seen this in Kenpo? We would never consider training a 5 year old. We tell parents that bring them in that the TKD school is down the street and when they mature to bring them back.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Actually, I'm pretty sure the philosophical differences are vast.

    I've not seen 5 year olds taking Krav Maga.

    I've not seen soccer moms telling the Krave Maga trainer that he needs to communicate nicer to her children, and do a little fun and games like patty-cake, patty-cake...
    Really? I have. http://www.yorktownfitnesscenter.com/kravMagaYouth.php

    http://www.kravmaga-kids.com/


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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette
    Actually, I'm pretty sure the philosophical differences are vast.

    I've not seen 5 year olds taking Krav Maga.

    I've not seen soccer moms telling the Krave Maga trainer that he needs to communicate nicer to her children, and do a little fun and games like patty-cake, patty-cake...
    You bet 'cha! I was going to say that it's only a matter of time. It's the natural progression of things. Take something that is interesting and make it available to the largest possible market(s). But, I guess if you're either not interested in making money or independantly wealthy, you can teach whoever you want on your very own terms.
    Otherwise...it's http://www.kravmaga-kmx.com/

    ~Peace
    ~Bill Richardson

    Rudeness is the frustrated attempt of a small mind to communicate.

    Forgive everyone everything

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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    Dear Kenpo brothers and sister:

    I had a Kenpo brother who ran an excellent class for kids as young as five. He taught them many things such as basic kicks, punches, blocks, stances and self defense techniques.

    The class focused on how to respond when grabbed by a stranger. I saw many younger kenpoists learn to kick knee joints, stomp insteps, and bite the arm of a bad guy. I thought that his class was excellent and should be manditory training for all youngsters. in the times we live in

    Nelson

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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    I've said before, it's not only what you train, but also how you train.

    A friend in Krav Maga has mentioned being careful when picking a school. Some are good, and some are not, many are just jumping on the $$ bandwagon. Kind of the same when picking a Kenpo school, or any other martial arts school for that matter. Some are good, some are not.

    From what I have seen, I think Kenpo is generally more rounded and complete. Again, I'm not an expert in Krav, but I believe kenpo makes more varied use of the legs, unless you're in a kenpo style that doesn't kick.

    There were links to Krav Maga for kids - it's only fair we point out Kenpo schools that take little kids. (not passing judgement or picking on any in particular, just what google found)
    http://www.kenpo4kids.com/ <-- this one is over the top
    http://www.kenpoforall.com/index.cfm?page=7
    http://www.mindbodysoul.tv/episodes/.../kenpo-4-kids/
    http://www.brandxmartialarts.com/classes/jr_kenpo.htm
    http://www.millersdojo.com/Little%20...20Program.html
    http://www.matthewskenpo.com/kids-kenpo.htm
    http://www.tamamartialarts.com/disc-kempo.php
    and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPuYTqkvFPw

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    John M. La Tourrette (11-01-2007)

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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Kenpo brothers and sister:

    I had a Kenpo brother who ran an excellent class for kids as young as five. He taught them many things such as basic kicks, punches, blocks, stances and self defense techniques.

    The class focused on how to respond when grabbed by a stranger. I saw many younger kenpoists learn to kick knee joints, stomp insteps, and bite the arm of a bad guy. I thought that his class was excellent and should be manditory training for all youngsters. in the times we live in

    Nelson
    Nelson,

    You demonstrated my point exactly.

    Your kenpo "friend" taught children a very simplified version of BASICS.

    He did NOT teach them kenpo. He did NOT promote them to black belt in Kenpo Karate.

    He did a "children's class".

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by toejoe2k View Post
    You bet 'cha! I was going to say that it's only a matter of time. It's the natural progression of things. Take something that is interesting and make it available to the largest possible market(s). But, I guess if you're either not interested in making money or independantly wealthy, you can teach whoever you want on your very own terms.
    Otherwise...it's http://www.kravmaga-kmx.com/

    ~Peace
    Yep.
    I do it "MY" way.
    And the older I get the more set in my ways I get.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadrunner View Post
    Really? I have.
    I love a mismatcher.

    They are so easy to control.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Nelson,

    You demonstrated my point exactly.

    Your kenpo "friend" taught children a very simplified version of BASICS.

    He did NOT teach them kenpo. He did NOT promote them to black belt in Kenpo Karate.

    He did a "children's class".

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    I'm with the Doc on this one.

    Children are still developing basic mechanical skills up to and through puberty. Basics are an excellent subject to teach and reinforce in them but I really don't think they can grasp the underlying principles inherent in Kenpo until after puberty.

    Our standard school policy is to not take students under 8. The IKCA as a whole varies on this topic, and there is material available that is specifically geared towards children.

    There is more than just physical considerations though. There are mental as well as philosophical and ethical considerations that must be addressed when teaching children.

    It's not enough that a child can perform the physcial requirements, but that they understand the actual brutality behind a lot of what kenpo teaches.

    Let's face it, Kenpo is not "Patty-Cake." Our tech's are meant to disable an attacker quickly, and a lot of those methods are brutal and down right nasty. Children simply don't have the emotional or intellectual capacity to grasp a lot of it.

    IMHO anyway.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    I'm with the Doc on this one.

    Children are still developing basic mechanical skills up to and through puberty. Basics are an excellent subject to teach and reinforce in them but I really don't think they can grasp the underlying principles inherent in Kenpo until after puberty.

    Our standard school policy is to not take students under 8. The IKCA as a whole varies on this topic, and there is material available that is specifically geared towards children.

    There is more than just physical considerations though. There are mental as well as philosophical and ethical considerations that must be addressed when teaching children.

    It's not enough that a child can perform the physcial requirements, but that they understand the actual brutality behind a lot of what kenpo teaches.

    Let's face it, Kenpo is not "Patty-Cake." Our tech's are meant to disable an attacker quickly, and a lot of those methods are brutal and down right nasty. Children simply don't have the emotional or intellectual capacity to grasp a lot of it.

    IMHO anyway.
    I used to teach kids because I wanted that new Hummer.

    Finally I got wealthy enough that money did not mean as much to me (plus I found other nitches and gold mines) so I started weeding out the ones I would no longer accept as my personal clients.

    Young children, familes, bitches (not women, I love women but a certain mentality of whinning that is not dependant on testicals or the lack of testicals)...

    When I used to accept C's, F's and B's my schools had between 200 to 350 active members....

    ...and here's the neat point....

    I personally only taught about 20-25 of them.

    So when I retired the last time I sold the BIG school, and kept the "hard core" students.

    Now I just accept the type of client/student/customer/etc that I choose to teach.

    That's just my opinion.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo?

    We make no money. I wonder from month to month if my Sifu will be forced to sell....what I don't worry about is whether or not he will sacrifice the integrity of the art.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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