Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 33

Thread: Change

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Ft. Worth Texas
    Posts
    3,900
    Thanks
    2,878
    Thanked 1,741 Times in 1,088 Posts

    Default Change

    I would like to pass this on to everyone.

    There are those who are extremly loyal to a certian teacher or way of thinking. Whether it be Mr. Mills, Mr. White, Mr. Tatum,or whomever.

    We look at them with admiration,awe,and respect.
    It is safe to say that we follow those with whom we feel we fit in with.

    It is also safe to say that the person who will replace them some day, is more than likely already born,and prob training in the art.

    It is also safe to say that, what they will teach and their thought process will be different, and their version of the art will also be different.

    So when those great martial artist are replaced with the next generation, what will you do?
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to MARSHALLS KENPO For This Useful Post:

    Brother John (09-11-2007),jdinca (09-10-2007),kenpo0324 (09-10-2007),sifuroy (09-10-2007)

  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Elk Grove, CA
    Posts
    4,018
    Thanks
    1,163
    Thanked 913 Times in 561 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    My goal is to learn as much as I can from as many as I can.

    I hope those people who I admire will make videos and other written material to preserve their knowledge.

    My recent experience tells me that there a lot of people who all have their own unique perspective on the art. As I learn from each person, I have tried to pick up on their main message about the art.

    Some focus on timing, some on anchoring, some on sparring, some on making each strike really count, etc. The more main points I can incorporate into my own training, the more likely I'll be able to pass it along to others faithfully.

    There are always people out there with perspectives I've never seen and can learn from. I'll just keep plugging along trying to find those perspectives and sharing mine with anyone who is interested.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to amylong For This Useful Post:

    kenpo0324 (09-10-2007),MARSHALLS KENPO (09-10-2007),sifuroy (09-10-2007)

  5. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dana Point, CA
    Posts
    2,343
    Thanks
    2,296
    Thanked 4,374 Times in 1,427 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    It has occurred to me more than once that the 1st gens are not immortal, and that the flame will eventually fall on those such as us to carry. I'm not comfortable with it.

    The quality of kenpo seems to diminish the further one gets away from the tree of origin. What will EPAKKS look like in 2 or 3 more generations? I'm with Amy: Learn all you an from as many as you can, and compile it into a database that can be taught to future generations. Be able to dialogue intelligently about what you're discussing, and perhaps even honor the men who dug the well by being able to say, "this concept or variation comes from teacher X".

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Dr. Dave in da house For This Useful Post:

    amylong (09-10-2007),kenpo0324 (09-10-2007),MARSHALLS KENPO (09-10-2007),sifuroy (11-17-2007)

  7. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Ft. Worth Texas
    Posts
    3,900
    Thanks
    2,878
    Thanked 1,741 Times in 1,088 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    My goal is to learn as much as I can from as many as I can.

    I hope those people who I admire will make videos and other written material to preserve their knowledge.

    My recent experience tells me that there a lot of people who all have their own unique perspective on the art. As I learn from each person, I have tried to pick up on their main message about the art.

    Some focus on timing, some on anchoring, some on sparring, some on making each strike really count, etc. The more main points I can incorporate into my own training, the more likely I'll be able to pass it along to others faithfully.

    There are always people out there with perspectives I've never seen and can learn from. I'll just keep plugging along trying to find those perspectives and sharing mine with anyone who is interested.

    --Amy
    Perhaps in 20,30,40,50 years from now we can say, man that stuff is good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    It has occurred to me more than once that the 1st gens are not immortal, and that the flame will eventually fall on those such as us to carry. I'm not comfortable with it.

    The quality of kenpo seems to diminish the further one gets away from the tree of origin. What will EPAKKS look like in 2 or 3 more generations? I'm with Amy: Learn all you an from as many as you can, and compile it into a database that can be taught to future generations. Be able to dialogue intelligently about what you're discussing, and perhaps even honor the men who dug the well by being able to say, "this concept or variation comes from teacher X".

    D.
    It is a scary thought to reconize our own mortality, how will we be remembered is also scary. To think that student X may say that I learned this from me.
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MARSHALLS KENPO For This Useful Post:

    kenpo0324 (09-10-2007),sifuroy (09-10-2007)

  9. #5
    jjpregler's Avatar
    jjpregler is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Levittown, PA
    Posts
    159
    Thanks
    42
    Thanked 54 Times in 33 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    What is different from today than when the original martial arts were devised? Our ability and ease to maintain records. If sasddens me to see what is going on in kenpo nowadays. I had so much respect for Mr. Parker and all of the work he had done for the art. Greed has taken over since his death. Not that all of his "succesors" were greedy, but of the few that weren't, they were just clumped into the mess created by those who were.

    AK was so great because Mr. Parker modernized it for our culture. I don;t think it will see that day of greatness again until then next great master comes along and does something equivelant to what Mr. Parker did, but then it won't lok like AK at all anymore, will it?

  10. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    My own private Idaho
    Posts
    5,299
    Thanks
    4,907
    Thanked 3,587 Times in 2,193 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    Succession has already been put in place. Richard Lee has my complete loyalty and I will have no problem carrying that forward when John Buckley takes the reins.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

  11. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpregler View Post
    What is different from today than when the original martial arts were devised? Our ability and ease to maintain records. If sasddens me to see what is going on in kenpo nowadays. I had so much respect for Mr. Parker and all of the work he had done for the art. Greed has taken over since his death. Not that all of his "succesors" were greedy, but of the few that weren't, they were just clumped into the mess created by those who were.
    Sorry, but I do not know what you mean by "greed"?

    If "it's making money", it's pretty well established that Mr. Parker liked money though I do NOT believe he was greedy.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to John M. La Tourrette For This Useful Post:

    Dr. Dave in da house (09-11-2007)

  13. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wichita, Kansas, United States
    Posts
    2,467
    Thanks
    2,019
    Thanked 1,277 Times in 709 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    I would like to pass this on to everyone.
    There are those who are extremly loyal to a certian teacher or way of thinking. Whether it be Mr. Mills, Mr. White, Mr. Tatum,or whomever.
    We look at them with admiration,awe,and respect.
    It is safe to say that we follow those with whom we feel we fit in with.
    It is also safe to say that the person who will replace them some day, is more than likely already born,and prob training in the art.
    It is also safe to say that, what they will teach and their thought process will be different, and their version of the art will also be different.
    So when those great martial artist are replaced with the next generation, what will you do?
    I like this Mr. Marshall. VERY interesting line of thought.

    My intention is to study and train the best I can in the best material that I can find. To put my body and mind to it in such a way that I gain the best experiences and broadest range of experiences that I can...so that I have all that much more quality to offer those who come to me for instruction... those who share Kenpo with me.
    IF I do this to the best of my ability, with all of my heart....
    I'll either be one of those leading the pack
    or just the best follower I can be.
    And I'll be 110% committed and fine with EITHER of these! So long as I'm always growing as a person, a Kenpoist and an instructor, and doing the absolute best that I can.

    Good topic sir.

    your Brother
    John
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ((if you use "FaceBook", look me up there by name))
    "Striving for success without hard work is like trying to harvest where you haven't planted"
    ~ David Bly

  14. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Brother John For This Useful Post:

    amylong (09-11-2007),Dr. Dave in da house (09-11-2007),MARSHALLS KENPO (09-12-2007),toejoe2k (09-11-2007)

  15. #9
    jjpregler's Avatar
    jjpregler is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Levittown, PA
    Posts
    159
    Thanks
    42
    Thanked 54 Times in 33 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Sorry, but I do not know what you mean by "greed"?

    If "it's making money", it's pretty well established that Mr. Parker liked money though I do NOT believe he was greedy.
    No, it's more like greed for power as well as money. Mr. Parker was in business to make money. So are all of the teachers. However, when Mr. Parker died, too many came out of the closet and claimed that they were the one that that should suceed Mr. Parker. Mr. Parker's biggest failing was not to hand pick the person before he died. But then again, planning to die is not something that a normal person considers.

    Maybe I'm an idealist, but the continuum of the American Kenpo system could have been handled much better after the death of Mr. Parker than it was. When Buddha passed, he did not put all of his thoughts into writing. However, his students felt that his thoughts were so important that they got together as a group and tried to recreate all of his thoughts and ideas and memorialize them in writing. One would recall a sermon, others would verify it or attempt to make it more accurate to the best knowledge of all of his followers.

    The ideal situation would have been for his most advanced students to come together organize all of Mr. Parker's most recent ideas and memorialize them, then each person go out on their own. What happened instead is that many different teachers went on claiming a "special" corner on the market since they had some privileged info that Mr. Parker did not share with anyone else. As far as I'm concerned, the best ideas we have on what was Mr. Parker's was written in his infinite insights series, with the 24 technique list. Anything anyne else says beyoned that, I have to accept as the individuals own take on the system and not specifically Mr. Parker's.

  16. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    SpoVaWA
    Posts
    4,387
    Thanks
    1,765
    Thanked 1,793 Times in 1,309 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpregler View Post
    No, it's more like greed for power as well as money. Mr. Parker was in business to make money. So are all of the teachers. However, when Mr. Parker died, too many came out of the closet and claimed that they were the one that that should suceed Mr. Parker. Mr. Parker's biggest failing was not to hand pick the person before he died. But then again, planning to die is not something that a normal person considers.

    Maybe I'm an idealist, but the continuum of the American Kenpo system could have been handled much better after the death of Mr. Parker than it was. When Buddha passed, he did not put all of his thoughts into writing. However, his students felt that his thoughts were so important that they got together as a group and tried to recreate all of his thoughts and ideas and memorialize them in writing. One would recall a sermon, others would verify it or attempt to make it more accurate to the best knowledge of all of his followers.

    The ideal situation would have been for his most advanced students to come together organize all of Mr. Parker's most recent ideas and memorialize them, then each person go out on their own. What happened instead is that many different teachers went on claiming a "special" corner on the market since they had some privileged info that Mr. Parker did not share with anyone else. As far as I'm concerned, the best ideas we have on what was Mr. Parker's was written in his infinite insights series, with the 24 technique list. Anything anyne else says beyoned that, I have to accept as the individuals own take on the system and not specifically Mr. Parker's.
    While I appreciate your point of view, none of the teachings of Mr. Parker are Gospel. Infinite Insights was written in a very minimalist style, or more simply put, it was a basic outline for a school or individual to study and expand upon. As for Mr. Parker making a mistake by not awarding Kenpo to a specific individual to have control over all of us, I think he made the right choice. He gave it to everyone. And let the chips fall where they may.
    Sean

  17. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to KenpoChanger For This Useful Post:

    Brother John (09-12-2007),Dr. Dave in da house (09-11-2007),Hunter (09-12-2007),John M. La Tourrette (09-11-2007),MARSHALLS KENPO (09-12-2007),sifuroy (11-17-2007)

  18. #11
    sifuroy is offline In Memory of our Departed Friend
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,027
    Thanks
    958
    Thanked 444 Times in 304 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    I quess that since I am as old any of the first generation Black Belts I won't have a problem of learning from the new Masters. However my son and our students will have that problem. I hope we have taught them to be open minded enough to look at what is being taught then see just what they want to absorb. I am sure they will make the right decision when that time comes.

    I am Most Respectfully,
    Sifuroy

  19. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sifuroy For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (09-11-2007),MARSHALLS KENPO (09-12-2007)

  20. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    While I appreciate your point of view, none of the teachings of Mr. Parker are Gospel. Infinite Insights was written in a very minimalist style, or more simply put, it was a basic outline for a school or individual to study and expand upon. As for Mr. Parker making a mistake by not awarding Kenpo to a specific individual to have control over all of us, I think he made the right choice. He gave it to everyone. And let the chips fall where they may.
    Sean
    LOL!

    Haleluya Sean.

    I also found the comparison of Mr. Parker to Buddha a little over the top.

    Actually, WAY over the top.

    DOC JOHN

  21. #13
    Hunter's Avatar
    Hunter is offline
    KenpoTalk
    3rd. Brown Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wichita KS
    Posts
    709
    Thanks
    225
    Thanked 183 Times in 112 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    LOL!

    Haleluya Sean.

    I also found the comparison of Mr. Parker to Buddha a little over the top.

    Actually, WAY over the top.

    DOC JOHN
    The comparison may have been over the top but when you look at the situation let me ask this; Has Mr. Parker's death been treated any less different in some instances? Do people not quote his writings and "zen" word for word and page for page? Do people not argue over who was the closest and who teaches the purest form of what he tried to teach? I think the similarities are there to be found.

    I see what you are getting at; and most of us with a little common sense do not see his death that way. I am going to be bastardized for saying this, but Ed Parker was only a man. A great man, but still just a man. Like everyone else who wakes up in the morning with bad hair and bad breath. It is not about how well Ed Parker did kenpo, but how well I do my kenpo.

    I do however, feel that many people have immortalized his passing to the same extent that some disciples of Buddha did upon his passing. To the point of being silly sometimes.
    www.hunterskarate.com

    "I believe that to have a friend, a man must be one."

    - From the Lone Ranger's Creed




  22. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Hunter For This Useful Post:

    amylong (09-12-2007),Brother John (09-12-2007)

  23. #14
    jjpregler's Avatar
    jjpregler is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Levittown, PA
    Posts
    159
    Thanks
    42
    Thanked 54 Times in 33 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    I swear, it seems like people look at a post and before they read it decide that they are not going to like what they read before they read it. Critically analyze my post. I was not comparing Mr. Parker with Buddha, but I was comparing Mr. Parker's student's with Buddha's students. It was my statement that i wished Mr. Parker's student's acted like Buddha's students at his death.

    I understand that insights was only outline form of the system, but you have so many people out there claiming to teach Ed Parker's Kenpo and they teach totally different things. It comes down to mine and other's perspectives as students and not as teachers. If we want someone who teaches Ed Parker's Kenpo, we should be able to know who teaches it as he taught it or an offshoot based on his Kenpo with what the teacher feels is improvements.

    I understand some of the problem comes down to when the certain student studied with Mr. Parker as I understnd that over the years he changed the system and it really depended on when you studied with him. But the advanced black belts who studied with him at his passing to me are the one's who knew his vision at his death. With someone like me who only met Mr. Parker a small handful of times, I have to depend on what others tell me what his vision was for the future of the system and when you go out and compare the different versions it is disconcerting for someone like me to decipher what that vision was when all of his past students cannot agree on that vision.

  24. The Following User Says Thank You to jjpregler For This Useful Post:

    MARSHALLS KENPO (09-12-2007)

  25. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Kerrville, Texas
    Posts
    1,234
    Thanks
    1,485
    Thanked 622 Times in 414 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    I also found the comparison of Mr. Parker to Buddha a little over the top.

    Actually, WAY over the top.
    Forgive my ignorance on this subject but, Buda was also just a man. Given that fact, why would it be so far fetched to compare one man to another? Granted, Buda's wisdom is far reaching (those whom he intended to reach) and has been lauded over a great deal of time but, SGM Parker has reached his intended audience (read: Martial artists)...as for the test of time...we have yet to see.
    Other than that, I don't see why it should be verboten to consider similarities between any man who has made a positive contibution to Buda. But then, that's just me.

    Sincerest respects,

    ~Billy Richardson
    ~Bill Richardson

    Rudeness is the frustrated attempt of a small mind to communicate.

    Forgive everyone everything

  26. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to toejoe2k For This Useful Post:

    amylong (09-12-2007),Brother John (09-12-2007),MARSHALLS KENPO (09-12-2007)

  27. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    I would like to pass this on to everyone.

    There are those who are extremly loyal to a certian teacher or way of thinking. Whether it be Mr. Mills, Mr. White, Mr. Tatum,or whomever.

    We look at them with admiration,awe,and respect.
    It is safe to say that we follow those with whom we feel we fit in with.

    It is also safe to say that the person who will replace them some day, is more than likely already born,and prob training in the art.

    It is also safe to say that, what they will teach and their thought process will be different, and their version of the art will also be different.

    So when those great martial artist are replaced with the next generation, what will you do?

    Of course we more closely follow those who are in line with our way of thinking. That applies to everything, not just Kenpo.

    I don't deify anyone. I respect the Seniors because of their knowledge and experience much the same as I respect others, like my college professors for instance.

    There are those on this board that aren't considered "Seniors" whose opinions I've come to respect because they've demonstrated a great knowledge of the art.

    So, I'll just keep doing what I've been doing. Seeking out knowledgable folks that are willilng to share with me and help me learn.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

  28. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Celtic_Crippler For This Useful Post:

    jdinca (09-12-2007),MARSHALLS KENPO (09-12-2007)

  29. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Elk Grove, CA
    Posts
    4,018
    Thanks
    1,163
    Thanked 913 Times in 561 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post

    I don't deify anyone.
    I do. I have posters of all the kenpo seniors on all of my walls. I also have little kenpo dolls of all of them too, just like they made for the Sacramento Kings. Coffee mugs, shirts, headbands -- everything.

    It's really amazing. I have about 30 little shrines all over my house.

    Sometimes I even stalk them covertly.






    Oh, did I say that loud?
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


  30. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to amylong For This Useful Post:

    Brother John (09-12-2007),MARSHALLS KENPO (09-12-2007)

  31. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    My own private Idaho
    Posts
    5,299
    Thanks
    4,907
    Thanked 3,587 Times in 2,193 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Of course we more closely follow those who are in line with our way of thinking. That applies to everything, not just Kenpo.

    I don't deify anyone. I respect the Seniors because of their knowledge and experience much the same as I respect others, like my college professors for instance.

    There are those on this board that aren't considered "Seniors" whose opinions I've come to respect because they've demonstrated a great knowledge of the art.

    So, I'll just keep doing what I've been doing. Seeking out knowledgable folks that are willilng to share with me and help me learn.
    Well put. We align ourselves with those whose outlook is similar to our own and, in the end, we're all just humans cruising through life. Some of us are just more adept at it than others.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

  32. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to jdinca For This Useful Post:

    Celtic_Crippler (09-12-2007),MARSHALLS KENPO (09-12-2007)

  33. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    I do. I have posters of all the kenpo seniors on all of my walls. I also have little kenpo dolls of all of them too, just like they made for the Sacramento Kings. Coffee mugs, shirts, headbands -- everything.

    It's really amazing. I have about 30 little shrines all over my house.

    Sometimes I even stalk them covertly.






    Oh, did I say that loud?
    Why doesn't that surprise me?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

  34. The Following User Says Thank You to Celtic_Crippler For This Useful Post:

    amylong (09-12-2007)

  35. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wichita, Kansas, United States
    Posts
    2,467
    Thanks
    2,019
    Thanked 1,277 Times in 709 Posts

    Default Re: Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
    Ed Parker was only a man. A great man, but still just a man. Like everyone else who wakes up in the morning with bad hair and bad breath. It is not about how well Ed Parker did kenpo, but how well I do my kenpo.

    I do however, feel that many people have immortalized his passing to the same extent that some disciples of Buddha did upon his passing. To the point of being silly sometimes.
    It needed said man!

    ....me?
    I wake up with Badbreath and NO hair, and I walk around and go to bed that way too.

    Your Brother
    John
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ((if you use "FaceBook", look me up there by name))
    "Striving for success without hard work is like trying to harvest where you haven't planted"
    ~ David Bly

  36. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Brother John For This Useful Post:

    amylong (09-12-2007),Hunter (09-12-2007)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. A question about change
    By hemi in forum General Martial Arts
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 03-20-2007, 09:34 PM
  2. Implimenting Change
    By Rob Broad in forum Kenpo General
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 11-08-2006, 12:20 AM
  3. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 07-07-2006, 01:57 PM
  4. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 02-17-2006, 02:09 PM