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Thread: A system of ... basics?

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    Default A system of ... basics?

    Hello all. I'd like to ask you fine kenpo folk a qvestion.

    Some of you may have heard that the system of Hwa Rang Do has been, essentially, split into two arts - or that an "introductory" system called Tae Soo Do has been created as a spin-off of HRD. This TSD system is usually a prerequisite for HRD students if they have not the mental capacity, physical talent or experience enough to "handle" learning HRD. It has been explained to me by some as "a system of basics," and TSD = high school where HRD = collage (sic).

    Now, I think strong basics are key (no-brainer, eh?) ... but an entire system? of basics? Aren't those called "color ranks?"

    Now, of course, I will concede that there are very talented persons in the world and that some people learn much faster than others, some have sharper or better skills, etcetera, and of course there are people who just plain don't 'get it.' But it is my general understanding that progressing students in the basics is mainly an instructor's job.

    What say you? Is slower learning, weak basics, general under achievement a learning flaw, a teaching flaw or both? AND - if you feel it's a learning flaw, can you justify creating a WHOLE SYSTEM built on the basics alone?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by shesulsa; 08-20-2007 at 03:15 AM. Reason: correct punctuation
    Experience is the best teacher ... and it teaches backwards.

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Being someone whose learning style seems to be a bit off-center from most MA teachers, I can understand teaching and learning difficulties.....but I don't think that's whats going on here.

    That structure doesn't sound like it addresses any variances in teaching and learning. Sounds more like its designed to put someone in to a Black Belt as quickly as possible.

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Quote Originally Posted by shesulsa View Post
    Hello all. I'd like to ask you fine kenpo folk a qvestion.

    Some of you may have heard that the system of Hwa Rang Do has been, essentially, split into two arts - or that an "introductory" system called Tae Soo Do has been created as a spin-off of HRD. This TSD system is usually a prerequisite for HRD students if they have not the mental capacity, physical talent or experience enough to "handle" learning HRD. It has been explained to me by some as "a system of basics," and TSD = high school where HRD = collage (sic).

    Now, I think strong basics are key (no-brainer, eh?) ... but an entire system? of basics? Aren't those called "color ranks?"

    Now, of course, I will concede that there are very talented persons in the world and that some people learn much faster than others, some have sharper or better skills, etcetera, and of course there are people who just plain don't 'get it.' But it is my general understanding that progressing students in the basics is mainly an instructor's job.

    What say you? Is slower learning, weak basics, general under achievement a learning flaw, a teaching flaw or both? AND - if you feel it's a learning flaw, can you justify creating a WHOLE SYSTEM built on the basics alone?

    Thanks.
    Every art is about basics, they just transition from embyonic to sophisticated applications.

    1) It is the teaching
    2) It is the time the student invest
    3) You have to look at each person as a individual
    4) The only time requirements relative or those from the student necessary to master the basics
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Shesulsa:

    I was a big fan of the HRD I saw in the late 70's & 80's. I had several buddies who were active in it, 2 of whom were roomates with seniors in the art at various times. We used t5o train like heck, and I'd go to the tests in Downey as their guest. I lost track, then checked back in after reading some cryptic posts over on MT.

    At the time I rubbernecked, I wasn't very far from Lake Forest; in fact, I worked at a TCM herbal manufacturing company right around the corner from ...well... I'm sure you can guess.

    Having gone in under cover of anonymity, without letting them know I knew anything at all about HRD content, history, or copyright politics, I snooped and prodded and interviewed. I got the distinct impression that the Tae sub-system was created to bump up the income potential via more classes opened to more people...kids, dolts who very likely WOULD find HRD a little tough to track, and so on. Nice way to charge one guy for 2 black belts at the same school, by the same faculty.

    I thing I caught a tone in your post that agrees. Yes, basics are basics. In kenpo, in HRD. And it's an instructional issue; the prof must stretch to find a way to reach the student, and bring out of them their capacity for wisdom and performance. Not everyone can or should be a black belt, just as not everyone is wired to be a physicist. Dumbing down PhD programs in physics so kids and idjits can have the same bragging rights as Einstein is a little ummm.... dense.

    Hope it all works out,

    Dave.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Dumbing down PhD programs in physics so kids and idjits can have the same bragging rights as Einstein is a little ummm.... dense.
    Hey, Dr. Dave,

    You have a *very* excellent point here and it applies to SO MANY programs available to people today, not just this particular commercial martial instance. I look around and see nursing programs that used to be 3-4 years long compacted into 6 months. One must wonder the performance quality and thoroughness in someone who has received such a program.

    I am holding my tongue a lot on this because respect is still very important to me and the art of HRD *is* one heckuva training opportunity. I don't know how much you did, perhaps we could chat privately about that. And I don't care to be disrespectful to people who have brought HRD into being purely because it is the best thing of its kind I've seen around, really, and I'd like to honor that. But ... well, I just wondered what everyone's perspective is on this as it's a little ... ah ... confusing to me.

    I appreciate your honesty, Dr. Dave, thanks.
    Experience is the best teacher ... and it teaches backwards.

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Every art is about basics, they just transition from embyonic to sophisticated applications.

    1) It is the teaching
    2) It is the time the student invest
    3) You have to look at each person as a individual
    4) The only time requirements relative or those from the student necessary to master the basics

    What he said.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Hi all,
    I came to kenpo from Tae Soo Do, and can tell you it is not just for the basics of HRD. It is a system ment to get you ready for the conplexities of HRD. We had many people who came from TKD and other arts over to TSD because it offered more variety in techs and has weapons right from white belt. It combines the hard and soft arts as well as submission. HRD is a very tradtional art and a lot is expected if you start down that road. If you are a black belt in another art and come directly from that art, they evaluate your basics. If you show you're proficient you start as a white sash in HRD. If you've had a long layoff, you start as a white belt in TSD. In TSD you learn your basics like any other art, along with weapons (nunchuk, staff and sword)through 10 belts, as well as basic submission and ground fighting. You learn all your basic stances, punches and kicks in the first 3 belts and then the system builds on that. Once your reach your black belt you start in HRD as a yellow sash, the 3rd sash in the system. In HRD you are expected to be a mentor to all under your rank. You will also learn, if my memory serves, some 500 submission techs alone, on your way to black sash, as well as healing arts and dozens of weapons. Once you are on to degrees of black sash you will be taught accupuncture. That is all I remember. There are over 4000 punching and kicking combinations. Enough to keep you busy for a life time. Many coming from other arts have commented on how much more they learned in TSD compared to the art they came from. Hope this sheds some light on TSD, HRD.

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Quote Originally Posted by kwikarlo View Post
    Hi all,
    I came to kenpo from Tae Soo Do, and can tell you it is not just for the basics of HRD. It is a system ment to get you ready for the conplexities of HRD. We had many people who came from TKD and other arts over to TSD because it offered more variety in techs and has weapons right from white belt. It combines the hard and soft arts as well as submission. HRD is a very tradtional art and a lot is expected if you start down that road. If you are a black belt in another art and come directly from that art, they evaluate your basics. If you show you're proficient you start as a white sash in HRD. If you've had a long layoff, you start as a white belt in TSD. In TSD you learn your basics like any other art, along with weapons (nunchuk, staff and sword)through 10 belts, as well as basic submission and ground fighting. You learn all your basic stances, punches and kicks in the first 3 belts and then the system builds on that. Once your reach your black belt you start in HRD as a yellow sash, the 3rd sash in the system. In HRD you are expected to be a mentor to all under your rank. You will also learn, if my memory serves, some 500 submission techs alone, on your way to black sash, as well as healing arts and dozens of weapons. Once you are on to degrees of black sash you will be taught accupuncture. That is all I remember. There are over 4000 punching and kicking combinations. Enough to keep you busy for a life time. Many coming from other arts have commented on how much more they learned in TSD compared to the art they came from. Hope this sheds some light on TSD, HRD.
    Thank you so much.
    So with all that material what brought you to Kenpo ?
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Quote Originally Posted by shesulsa View Post
    Hello all. I'd like to ask you fine kenpo folk a qvestion.

    Some of you may have heard that the system of Hwa Rang Do has been, essentially, split into two arts - or that an "introductory" system called Tae Soo Do has been created as a spin-off of HRD. This TSD system is usually a prerequisite for HRD students if they have not the mental capacity, physical talent or experience enough to "handle" learning HRD. It has been explained to me by some as "a system of basics," and TSD = high school where HRD = collage (sic).

    Now, I think strong basics are key (no-brainer, eh?) ... but an entire system? of basics? Aren't those called "color ranks?"

    Now, of course, I will concede that there are very talented persons in the world and that some people learn much faster than others, some have sharper or better skills, etcetera, and of course there are people who just plain don't 'get it.' But it is my general understanding that progressing students in the basics is mainly an instructor's job.

    What say you? Is slower learning, weak basics, general under achievement a learning flaw, a teaching flaw or both? AND - if you feel it's a learning flaw, can you justify creating a WHOLE SYSTEM built on the basics alone?

    Thanks.
    I think something is here that has not yet been brough forth?

    Here it is.

    What should anyone train in Hwa-Rang Do, or even the Tae Su Do?

    Without knowing in advance your goal of training, why choose either (kenpo included)?

    For example...

    Graciela Castillas was a student of Ju Bang Lee and she wanted to fight full contact. HRD does not work effectively enough for full contact. So she went to Inosantos and studied under him and became world champion.

    Same person. Different training. Got the results she wanted.

    So, before the above can be intelligently answered goals have to be addressed.

    DOC JOHN

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    The funny thing is it was Hapkido before it was Hawrangdo, so I wonder what's different now.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    The funny thing is it was Hapkido before it was Hawrangdo, so I wonder what's different now.
    Well what Bong Su Han did and what Ju Bang Lee did are very different, especially when you get into the weapons and espionage aspects.

    The ones who seemed more attracted to Ju Bang Lee were the covert military specialists.

    People like Bob Duggan out of Aspen Colorado. He did some Merc work before he started his tactical defense stuff and body guard training.

    Bob is actually the author of the 3 book series on Hwa Rang Do.

    And he put out some good stuff in the 80's. I've not paid much attention to either HRD or HKD since them, so maybe my opinion and research is dated?

    DOC JOHN
    P.s. Sorry I missed you last weekend;-(>

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Well what Bong Su Han did and what Ju Bang Lee did are very different.
    Well Bong Soo Han always was different and concentrated more on the manipulation aspect. I always viewd what Han did as closer to Tang Soo Do than the Hapkido of Choi. Choi would only say his Hapkido was "different." Unlike Joo and Soo Bang Lee who were both students of Choi until they had a falling out, and changed the name of their style to Hawrangdo. Choi told them to their face their Hapkido was "no good."
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Brad,
    There were several reasons for leaving TSD, but the reason i choose kenpo was the practicality of it's system. Specifically the IKCA system. It fit more with my philosophy of what a martial art should be. TDS,HRD is very traditional/classically taught art. Lots of extreme stances, fist chambered at the waist, reciting verses of the HRD code of ethics in Korean. Lots of pomp and circumstance. It is a high flying art. A lot of jump, spinning heal hook kicks to the head. I didn't start until I was in my mid 40's and had never spent any real time streching in my life. So those kind of kicks, and my size ( 5'9", 240 ) were going to be against me as I got farther into the art. I could lose a lot of weight, but I really have a passion for weights and being physically big and strong. Kenpo allows me to have my cake and eat it too. Not that i would have been failed for not getting my kicks as high as they like, but I would expect that of myself and be disappointed if i could not meet my own expectations. I did lose about 25 lbs but was sick over my loss of strength. Just another one of the reasons for switching. Kenpo , as taught in the IKCA system, just made a lot of sense to me. If you're like me, you practice the way you want to perform. Practicing out of extremely wide stances might be great for building leg strength, but when i come out of a tech, I'm going to hit the stance width I have been practicing most. Not very practical to land in that stance with no way to move quickly. Kenpo has me practicing the techs as I would need them on the street. The forms are actually one big long form that starts with the techs from the 1st belt and adds on the techs for each succeding belt level as you go along, reinforcing muscle memory. Again, practical and efficient. By the time you get through the material for black belt, you can practice all the techs for every belt in one flowing form. It's also an art that doesn't stand still. If you can make a better fist, change it. If there is a better way to block, check or kick, they are not affraid to improve those aspects.
    I'm in MA for practical self defense and fitness. Kenpo fits me better than TSD,HRD.

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Quote Originally Posted by kwikarlo View Post
    Brad,
    There were several reasons for leaving TSD, but the reason i choose kenpo was the practicality of it's system. Specifically the IKCA system. It fit more with my philosophy of what a martial art should be. TDS,HRD is very traditional/classically taught art. Lots of extreme stances, fist chambered at the waist, reciting verses of the HRD code of ethics in Korean. Lots of pomp and circumstance. It is a high flying art. A lot of jump, spinning heal hook kicks to the head. I didn't start until I was in my mid 40's and had never spent any real time streching in my life. So those kind of kicks, and my size ( 5'9", 240 ) were going to be against me as I got farther into the art. I could lose a lot of weight, but I really have a passion for weights and being physically big and strong. Kenpo allows me to have my cake and eat it too. Not that i would have been failed for not getting my kicks as high as they like, but I would expect that of myself and be disappointed if i could not meet my own expectations. I did lose about 25 lbs but was sick over my loss of strength. Just another one of the reasons for switching. Kenpo , as taught in the IKCA system, just made a lot of sense to me. If you're like me, you practice the way you want to perform. Practicing out of extremely wide stances might be great for building leg strength, but when i come out of a tech, I'm going to hit the stance width I have been practicing most. Not very practical to land in that stance with no way to move quickly. Kenpo has me practicing the techs as I would need them on the street. The forms are actually one big long form that starts with the techs from the 1st belt and adds on the techs for each succeding belt level as you go along, reinforcing muscle memory. Again, practical and efficient. By the time you get through the material for black belt, you can practice all the techs for every belt in one flowing form. It's also an art that doesn't stand still. If you can make a better fist, change it. If there is a better way to block, check or kick, they are not affraid to improve those aspects.
    I'm in MA for practical self defense and fitness. Kenpo fits me better than TSD,HRD.
    Thank you so much,I dont know a lot about your previous art and that helped me a lot. Being in my late 40's I understand the physical requirements of the art. Thank you for sahrring and welcome to the world of kenpo. I look forward to working with you some day.

    My Respects
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Quote Originally Posted by kwikarlo View Post
    Specifically the IKCA system.
    Where do you hail from?

    Respects,
    Bill Parsons
    Triangle Kenpo Institute
    www.trianglekenpo.com

    "I know Kenpo!" "Cool... do you know how to use it?"

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Choi told them to their face their Hapkido was "no good."
    Citation please?

    Kwikarlo, I train non-WHRDA style and I'm aware of the elements of HRD. But what you stated basically corroborates my point which is that TSD is considered a more basic version of HRD ... a system of basics.
    Experience is the best teacher ... and it teaches backwards.

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Quote Originally Posted by shesulsa View Post
    Citation please?

    Kwikarlo, I train non-WHRDA style and I'm aware of the elements of HRD. But what you stated basically corroborates my point which is that TSD is considered a more basic version of HRD ... a system of basics.
    I suppose you could look at it that way, but then that statement would apply to most commercial MA. Whats the saying? When you get your black belt thats when you
    START to learn. If there were no HRD following TSD, TSD could stand on it's own as a system. I would put any BB in TSD up against a 1st dan in any MA without hesitating. This is no cookie cutter, belt mill. The average person would need at least 3yrs of steady training to get their BB. Although I have switched to kenpo, my son continues in TSD, because I feel they have an excellent kids program that will not just pass a kid through because he shows up and pays his money. They have standards to meet even at 4 yrs old. I urge you to visit an intermediate/advanced belt class if you have a dojang near you. You might be surprised what you find.
    Brad, I hope to meet you as well someday. Thanks for your kind words.

    Bill, I hail from Madison WI. Thanks for the welcome.

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Quote Originally Posted by kwikarlo View Post
    Bill, I hail from Madison WI. Thanks for the welcome.
    Do you train with Paul Metz?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Do you train with Paul Metz?
    CC

    I don't know Paul, or see him in the phone book. Could you tell me how to get in touch with him?

    Thanks, Karl

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    Default Re: A system of ... basics?

    Quote Originally Posted by kwikarlo View Post
    CC

    I don't know Paul, or see him in the phone book. Could you tell me how to get in touch with him?

    Thanks, Karl
    Paul G. Metz
    4th Degree
    Metz's Martial Arts Academy
    Manitowoc, WI, USA
    http://www.wisconsin-martialarts.com/

    Address: 916 South 10th Street, Manitowoc, Wisconson, 54220 USA
    Phone: 920 683 9772
    E-Mail : mmaawi@sbcglobal.net

    Not sure how close that is to you. I flunked Wisconsin Geography!

    I've trained with Mr. Metz once before. He's an IKCA guy and did a segment on reality training that was really good IMHO at a seminar. If it's too far for you, maybe he can at least hook you up with someone that is closer to you
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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