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Thread: Sport knife fighting

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    Default Sport knife fighting

    Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

    I've noticed over the years that knife training can be quite effective in deflating the egos of many martial artists especially when the dummy weapon is wielded by a former fencer or an experienced knife handler. My Bujin Kenpo sensei, the late Michael Sanders, many years ago was interested in developing a system called Sport Knife Fighting when practioners would spar full contact while using a dummy blade that would leave marks on the body of their opponent. This would avoid the problem with the kids game of "playing army" when one person would deny that they had been hit.

    Mike died before this idea became a reality but I wonder if anyone else has thought of a similiar concept?

    Nelson Kari

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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    Sport knife fighting? Well...fencing is a sport....I guess it would be possible to use the same concept. Why not? May open a few eyes to the reality of getting cut.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

    I've noticed over the years that knife training can be quite effective in deflating the egos of many martial artists especially when the dummy weapon is wielded by a former fencer or an experienced knife handler. My Bujin Kenpo sensei, the late Michael Sanders, many years ago was interested in developing a system called Sport Knife Fighting when practioners would spar full contact while using a dummy blade that would leave marks on the body of their opponent. This would avoid the problem with the kids game of "playing army" when one person would deny that they had been hit.

    Mike died before this idea became a reality but I wonder if anyone else has thought of a similiar concept?

    Nelson Kari
    We do this with white t-shirts and red markers
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    They could use the shock knife, rigged to leave a mark as well as a zap. Shock knives are pricey, but so are the epee & gear, or a full kendo setup.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    bujuts is offline
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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    Part of the thing with "sparring" with blades is that it promotes terrible habits in terms of what a person will want to do in a real blade encounter. I can already see it, leaping cuts similar to flying back-knuckle strikes you see so many times in point fighting. Yikes.

    With the sparring mentality and blades, there is too much back and forth, ebb and flow, a dangerous game of cat and mouse. There's no ownership of the skeleton. To put in bluntly, the intent of a knife in combat is to kill, not to cut, not to maim, but to rapidly bring an enemy's (ies) life(s) to a quick end. The knife is an extension of kenpo, and since kenpo dominates and controls the body, so does kenpo with a knife.

    With that said, nothing wrong with doing it as a sport provided they don't start thinking there's a strong correlation with the reality of deadly violence. What would worry me is winners of trophies in this sport thinking they can handle some tweaker with an infected stiletto ready to eviscerate them for their wallet and $100 nikes. I vote nay.

    My two centavos, for what its worth.

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by bujuts View Post
    Part of the thing with "sparring" with blades is that it promotes terrible habits in terms of what a person will want to do in a real blade encounter. I can already see it, leaping cuts similar to flying back-knuckle strikes you see so many times in point fighting. Yikes.

    With the sparring mentality and blades, there is too much back and forth, ebb and flow, a dangerous game of cat and mouse. There's no ownership of the skeleton. To put in bluntly, the intent of a knife in combat is to kill, not to cut, not to maim, but to rapidly bring an enemy's (ies) life(s) to a quick end. The knife is an extension of kenpo, and since kenpo dominates and controls the body, so does kenpo with a knife.

    With that said, nothing wrong with doing it as a sport provided they don't start thinking there's a strong correlation with the reality of deadly violence. What would worry me is winners of trophies in this sport thinking they can handle some tweaker with an infected stiletto ready to eviscerate them for their wallet and $100 nikes. I vote nay.

    My two centavos, for what its worth.

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF
    Re: The bold part...you mean like they already have with sport karate?
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    Yup, there are a couple of formats.

    For example: http://www.coldsteel.com/cscrules07.html

    One of the fundamental problems is that even though you might have marked someone, you don't know if that was enough to stop them. You leave a mark across their belly, but you don't know if it is an 1/8 inch deep or 2 inches. You slash his forearm, is that enough with a folder to truly incapacitate that arm? The knife is very subjective.

    There is an ongoing discussion on the Dog Brother's forums about how the knife might be properly instituted in their format. Mostly it is that the pain of an aluminum knife being shoved somewhere sensetive should be enought to let you know that "hey, you screwed up." But the DB aren't about winning and losing, its about personal growth. Incidentally, that is the format that I would favor, but would not be suitable for widespread sport application. I find all the rules of the Killshot tournaments to be rather annoying, sanitizes the knife down to a modified fencing format.

    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
    www.blackbirdmartialarts.com

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    ~William Drummond

    "This person is as dangerous as an IED."

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    bujuts is offline
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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Re: ..you mean like they already have with sport karate?
    Whuh? You mean guards at San Quentin they don't use flying back knuckles? BS Dave, I don't buy it.

    SB

    UKF

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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    N/t

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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    Reminds me of Shodokan Aikido's tanto randori.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=MTt8YwPaPCY

    Notice that one of the participants has a dummy tanto in that video. It's a little hard to see.

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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

    I've noticed over the years that knife training can be quite effective in deflating the egos of many martial artists especially when the dummy weapon is wielded by a former fencer or an experienced knife handler. My Bujin Kenpo sensei, the late Michael Sanders, many years ago was interested in developing a system called Sport Knife Fighting when practioners would spar full contact while using a dummy blade that would leave marks on the body of their opponent. This would avoid the problem with the kids game of "playing army" when one person would deny that they had been hit.

    Mike died before this idea became a reality but I wonder if anyone else has thought of a similiar concept?

    Nelson Kari
    Yep.

    We did this through the latter part of the 70's and up to 1987, two years after my "Warrior's Guide to Knife Fighting" came out.

    Then I outgrew that and went onto other things.

    It was fun for a year or two, then got very tedious.

    Want to know why?

    DOC

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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    Lets hear it, buddy.
    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Yep.

    We did this through the latter part of the 70's and up to 1987, two years after my "Warrior's Guide to Knife Fighting" came out.

    Then I outgrew that and went onto other things.

    It was fun for a year or two, then got very tedious.

    Want to know why?

    DOC

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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Southwell View Post
    Lets hear it, please.


    Well,

    I’m not your buddy (a joke?), in fact I don’t even know your name (it’s NOT in the file)…

    …AND it is a fair question so I will give a polite answer.

    I’d really gotten involved in KF in 1974 because of my friend and student Michael Echanis (do a google search if curious). Some scary stuff that I was immensely attracted to so I did learn it well.

    In fact, according to rules and regulations of society now-a-days, probably too well.

    I sold that school in 1980 when I did retire the first time.

    I came out of retirement in 1983 when I decided to finance more education.

    So I taught KF to all students until 1987.

    I'd just turned 44 (in 1987), and had retired for the second time from teaching at a massively sized studio in Colorado Springs where most of my clients were active military (Ft. Carson, the air force base, Norad on the mountain, and the air force academy, therefore they had many a VALID reason to learn it), to retired military or their off-spring (a "want" to learn it)...

    Then I moved to an area that thought that type of Warrior mentality was offensive…

    …Because of the type of person it did attract in a non-military town.

    …and strangely enough, after that the ones that came to me in xxxxx were the biker mentality, or the street thug mentality, or the “I want to be a Ninja” mentality.

    I did not desire to teach that “I want to be tough & kill people” mentality at any rank.

    So I chose not to, and in fact that type are not allowed into the school.

    We do still sell the materials, and I still (20 years later) get people wanting me to train them in that and only that.

    Nope.

    When we teach them for a couple of years and I LIKE THEM, then I give them the extra-curriculum stuff.

    Doesn’t that sound fair to you?

    Since it’s my school I do whatever I want.

    And the Master Keys of the Knife are very very close to the other Master Keys we teach so skill acquisition is very quick.

    ©Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Ps. It seems like the older I got, the less I thought like a juvenile. So I became more responsible to who I taught what.


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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    Then I moved to an area that thought that type of Warrior mentality was offensive…

    …Because of the type of person it did attract in a non-military town.

    …and strangely enough, after that the ones that came to me in xxxxx were the biker mentality, or the street thug mentality, or the “I want to be a Ninja” mentality.

    I did not desire to teach that “I want to be tough & kill people” mentality at any rank.


    Good on you, Dr. John. Those types seem to think that anything short of sheer brutality is corny or ineffective. Pretty sad.

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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

    I've noticed over the years that knife training can be quite effective in deflating the egos of many martial artists especially when the dummy weapon is wielded by a former fencer or an experienced knife handler. My Bujin Kenpo sensei, the late Michael Sanders, many years ago was interested in developing a system called Sport Knife Fighting when practioners would spar full contact while using a dummy blade that would leave marks on the body of their opponent. This would avoid the problem with the kids game of "playing army" when one person would deny that they had been hit.

    Mike died before this idea became a reality but I wonder if anyone else has thought of a similiar concept?

    Nelson Kari
    It's an OK idea for competition. Its awesome for a demo. But IMO its a terrible idea to use them on a constant basis. An edged-weapons instructor has to develop the perceptions of the student. Those perceptions are honed through honest training, and not through over-reliance on a gadget.

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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post


    Well,

    I’m not your buddy (a joke?), in fact I don’t even know your name (it’s NOT in the file)…

    …AND it is a fair question so I will give a polite answer.

    I’d really gotten involved in KF in 1974 because of my friend and student Michael Echanis (do a google search if curious). Some scary stuff that I was immensely attracted to so I did learn it well.

    In fact, according to rules and regulations of society now-a-days, probably too well.

    I sold that school in 1980 when I did retire the first time.

    I came out of retirement in 1983 when I decided to finance more education.

    So I taught KF to all students until 1987.

    I'd just turned 44 (in 1987), and had retired for the second time from teaching at a massively sized studio in Colorado Springs where most of my clients were active military (Ft. Carson, the air force base, Norad on the mountain, and the air force academy, therefore they had many a VALID reason to learn it), to retired military or their off-spring (a "want" to learn it)...

    Then I moved to an area that thought that type of Warrior mentality was offensive…

    …Because of the type of person it did attract in a non-military town.

    …and strangely enough, after that the ones that came to me in xxxxx were the biker mentality, or the street thug mentality, or the “I want to be a Ninja” mentality.

    I did not desire to teach that “I want to be tough & kill people” mentality at any rank.

    So I chose not to, and in fact that type are not allowed into the school.

    We do still sell the materials, and I still (20 years later) get people wanting me to train them in that and only that.

    Nope.

    When we teach them for a couple of years and I LIKE THEM, then I give them the extra-curriculum stuff.

    Doesn’t that sound fair to you?

    Since it’s my school I do whatever I want.

    And the Master Keys of the Knife are very very close to the other Master Keys we teach so skill acquisition is very quick.

    ©Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Ps. It seems like the older I got, the less I thought like a juvenile. So I became more responsible to who I taught what.
    Sir, I had no disrespect intended with the buddy comment, I was in a hurry when I typed it. BTW, Thanks for pointing out my profile, I added my name.

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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

    Thanks for the most interesting dialogue. In reference to who you teach and what you teach them that will always be a problem whether you are teaching armed or unarmed combat.

    When it comes to "scoring" in such a contest a brother made a comment that when you "mark" or trace a line from a training blade you do not know how deep the cut would have been. That considerations is quite valid HOWEVER many targets are veins and arteries that are quite close to the surface. The eyes and the side of the neck come to mind. It's also true that even shallow cuts to the forehead bleed profusely casuing obstruction of vision which can lead to a fatal attack as well as result in psycho trauma as many folks freak out at the sight of their own blood.

    I'm not planning on starting such a sport league nor do I teach or practice knife techniques any more. The concept has interrested me for many years hence my question to the forum.

    Nelson Kari

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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Southwell View Post

    Sir, I was in a hurry when I typed it. BTW, Thanks for pointing out my profile, I added my name.
    Thank you Scott.

    DOC

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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    When I was still active duty military, we used red magic markers when we were on training excersises in place of using a real blade. The huge vast majority of the military is not taught knife fighting...I was lucky enough to be in a position to actively learn it for a short time in my career. What they taught was not "knife fighting"...what they taught were the quickest, quietest ways to remove an opponent with a blade. If he fought back, you had already screwed up and were likely dead. (blade vs bullet is always a bad idea)

    I fully intend to seek out a solid knife fighting system in the future of my martial arts learning. Its one of the few readily available weapons that you can carry on you.

    And I completely agree to CHOOSING who you teach your arts to in the fashion you described, Dr Tourrette.

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    Default Re: Sport knife fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo-Owl View Post
    And I completely agree to CHOOSING who you teach your arts to in the fashion you described, Dr Tourrette.
    Yep.

    I've done it the other way and I did live to regret it.

    Some people are really more trouble than the are worth.

    Sincerely,
    DOC
    Ps. Back on topic. I do believe that what you stated and what Nelson stated can be valid. From my viewpoint a knife is a over-equalizer, a weapon of ADVANTAGE, and NOT a sporting weapon.

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