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Thread: Kenpo & Jeet kune do

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    unshackled-chi is offline
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    Default Kenpo & Jeet kune do

    Hello , I do realize that this could be a long read, but it is something that has been twirling around in my mind for sometime. It is mainly direct qoutes from three authors and martial artist ,Chuck Sullivan, Bruce Lee, Ed Parker.


    The night i met Bruce lee , by Chuck Sullivan.
    .................................................. .........................

    What I do remember about that night was that
    the advanced class was having its usual great
    workout with Ed Parker at the helm. There was
    he typical gallery of spectators watching and
    being duly impressed.
    When the class ended we headed for the
    dressing room to change out of our sweaty gis.
    When we returned to the mat area we were still
    barefooted and loitered there shooting the
    breeze. Mr. Parker was in his office taking care
    of business.
    Within minutes Ed re-entered the mat area with
    a smaller, younger man following. He
    introduced him all around as Bruce Lee and had
    just about enough time to tell us that the kid is
    one heck of a martial artist before he was called
    back to take another phone call.
    This Bruce guy wasn’t at all shy and in a very
    short time the conversation drifted away from
    whatever we had been taking about and he had
    taken the floor. Soon he was telling us how he
    had just returned from Hong Kong where he had
    been seeking the truth concerning the martial
    arts. He said that from his observations of
    Karate and Kung Fu in the United states it was
    all “BS”. That was his word, not mine. He said
    in Hong Kong however only 95% was “BS”.
    His claim was that he had been able to go places
    and see things that we as Occidentals would
    never have been allowed. In fact, we wouldn’t
    have made it halfway down some of the alleys
    they were located in.
    According to his mathematics, of the 5% of the
    Hong Kong schools that were not “BS”, about
    half were sincerely trying but missing the mark
    and the other half was truly there. So according
    to Bruce Lee in the year 1962 when he was
    twenty-one years of age, only about two and a
    half percent of the world’s martial arts facilities
    were on the mark. (Which didn’t make any
    difference to us because we couldn’t go there
    anyway.) Obviously the Japanese and Koreans
    didn’t even count. At least they never came up
    in his assessments.
    Now you’ve got to remember, he was talking to
    a group of black and brown belts, most of whom
    were older than he. And bigger than he. And
    devoted to their Art, style system and instructor.
    I could feel the tension in the air bit either Bruce
    didn’t feel it or he chose to ignore it. Then he
    did some physical things. I felt the tension
    dropping and the respect rising. He had me feel
    his forearm. It was like a piece of metal. I
    suppose you could have driven your fingernail
    into the skin, but I really believe that was about
    it. I’d never felt anything like it, before or since.
    “Not magic,” he said, “just training.”
    As the conversation went on the mood became
    lighter and more affable until he dropped the
    bomb. In a very casual manner he said, “Oh, by
    the way, I saw you doing something earlier
    (during the class) and I was wondering why you
    were doing that?” Then he demonstrated what
    he was talking about. It was part of a technique
    Ed was teaching. We all exchanged glances and
    there was obvious confusion among us. Any
    one watching the class knew why we were
    doing that move. In looking back, Bruce played
    it for all it was worth. Putting on an innocent
    air. Finally someone took the bait and asked
    what he meant, why were we doing it? He said,
    “ Oh, I just wondered because it’s wrong.
    That’s when the tension came back, big time. I
    had known most of these guys for quite some
    time and knew them well. I had never seen so
    many faces turn crimson so fast before. But
    Bruce wasn’t one to let the moment slip away.
    He seized upon our stunned condition to show
    us precisely what we had done and then in
    painful detail he went back over it and showed
    us how it violated a principal. It was wrong.
    There was no denying it. It wasn’t big. It
    wouldn’t ruin your style. It didn’t destroy the
    system, but it was wrong.
    I wish I could remember what it was he picked
    up on that night but as I said it wasn’t that earth
    shattering of a thing. It did however make me
    think. If that was wrong and it really did violate
    a principle, then what else had we been taught
    that wasn’t quite right? It was then and there I
    decided to go back over everything I was doing
    and reevaluate. And I made a vow that I would
    examine with the proverbial fine tooth comb

    4

    everything that was taught to me in the future.
    Even at that, things get by you. Take last
    newsletter’s article “Then and Now” for
    example. You can never be too careful. That’s
    one of the reasons Vic and I took so long to put
    the System together. What ever didn’t work was
    thrown out immediately and whatever was weak
    followed.
    I’ll never forget an argument I had with Ed
    Parker many years later about the technique
    called Thundering Hammers. We argued all the
    way home from his West L.A. dojo to his home
    in Pasadena, some forty miles. I told him, a
    forearm across the midsection wouldn’t bend a
    body over, it would instead have much more of a
    tendency to stand it up. The body hinges at the
    hips, not across the stomach. It takes a shot to
    the groin to bend a body over and it would be
    the easiest thing in the world to simply change
    the target and allow the body to take its natural
    course of action, thereby allowing the technique
    to be finished the way it was conceived. One
    thing about our “arguments”. They might get
    heated, but there was never any degree of
    hostility, we both enjoyed making a point. In
    this particular case I won a hollow victory.
    When we pulled up in front of his house, Ed
    Parker finally said he saw what I was saying and
    that he was going to change the technique. He
    never did. I never brought it up again. I taught
    it my way and he taught it his way.
    Unfortunately, I never got the chance to spend
    time with Bruce to compare notes. I wish I had
    taken the time. I did stay in close contact with
    Danny Inosanto for years after he became
    Bruce’s number one disciple.
    On a dozen or more occasions Danny would tell
    me what Bruce had started doing with his
    classes and I would tell him that I had also
    instituted the very same kind of training or drill
    (without any knowledge of what Bruce was
    doing). Or, I would tell Danny that we had just
    started doing something that they should think
    about because it’s working so well and Danny
    would say he couldn’t believe it, they had just
    begun doing the same thing themselves.
    remember a direct quote from Dan. He said,
    “You know Chuck, you and Bruce really ought
    to get together. I’ve never known two people
    more on the same wave length”. I wish I had, it
    would have been fun. Although we never got a
    chance to work together, whenever we saw each
    other at a tournament or some function, Bruce
    and I never failed to stop and talk for a while.
    Danny also told me what Bruce said when he
    told him about the things we were doing at our
    school and how closely they paralleled his
    innovations. Bruce said, “He is in the water…
    but he is not yet swimming.” I got a kick out
    of that. Several years later my wife and I had
    the pleasure of spending time with Linda Lee,
    Bruce’s widow. At the time she was married to
    an old friend of mine, an early Kenpo Black
    Belt. One night when the four of us were out to
    dinner I told her what Bruce had said about me
    being in the water but not yet swimming. She
    smiled at that, undoubtedly recognizing her late
    husband’s verbal style and said, “That’s about as
    good a compliment as Bruce ever gave.”
    Rest in Peace Bruce.


    Organized Despair, by Bruce Lee.
    ..............................................
    In the long history of the martial arts, the instinct to follow and imitate seems to be inherent in most martial artist, instructors and students alike. This is partly due to human tendency and partly because of steep traditions behind mutiple patterns of styles. Consequently, to find a refreshing, original, master teacher is a rarity. The need for a" pointer of the way echoes".

    Each man belongs to a style which claims to posses the truth to the exclusion of all other styles. These styles become institutes with their explanations of the "way" dissecting and isolating the harmony of firmness and gentleness, establishing rythmic forms as the paticular state of their techniques.

    Instaed of facing combat in it's suchness, then, most systems of martial art accumulate a "fancy mess" that distorts and cramps their practioners and distracts them from the actual reality of combat, which is simple and direct. Instead of going immediately to the heart of things, flowery forms (organized despair) and artificial techniques are ritualistcally practised to stimulate actual combat. Thus, instead of "being" in combat these practioners are doing something "about" combat.

    Worse still, super mental power and spiritual this and spiritual that are desperately incorprated until these practioners drift further and further into mystery and abstraction. All such things are futile attempts to arrest and fix the ever-changing movements in combat and to dissect and analyze them like a corpse.

    When you get down to it, real combat is not fixed and is very much "alive". The fancy mess ( a form of paralysis ) solidifies and conditions what was once fluid, and when you look at it realistically, it is nothing but a blind devotion to the systematic uselessness of practicing routines or stunts that lead nowhere.

    [ there is alot more from the tao of jeet kune do on the subject, i leave it up to the reader to decide to further investigate , if s/he chooses]


    Ed Parker.
    .................................................. ...

    "Its not who's right, but who's left."
    Ed Parker ...



    "When I am gone, I hope that people won't try to traditionalize my Art. I want you to always remember that Kenpo will always be the Art of Perpetual Change. If you remember this, then the Art will never become obsolete because it will change with the times. While the ignorant refuse to study and the intelligent never stop, we should always be mindful of the fact that our reward in life is proportionate with the contributions we make. A true Martial Artist is not one who fears change, but one who causes it to happen. To live is to change, and to obtain perfection is to have changed often. Progress is a necessity that is a part of nature. While it is true that casting the old aside is not necessary in order to obtain something new, we should study old theories not as a means of discrediting them, but to see if they can be modified to improve our present conditions. A word of advice, The humble man makes room for progress; the proud man believes he is already there."

    Edmund Kealoha Parker Sr.
    Volume 2, Infinite Insights


    .................................................. ................................................

    Kenpo techniques are groups of basic moves arranged in a pre-planned sequence to
    illustrate a possible defense for a given scenario.

    They are taught with the "Three phase concept" which views the techniques in 3 stages
    (phases): Ideal, What-if, and Formulation.
    In a "real world" situation, the Kenpo practitioner isn't expected to complete a whole
    specific technique. One never knows exactly how an opponent may react to any block,
    check or strike. For any given technique one can apply the equation formula to fit the
    reactions of their opponent, or perhaps the practitioner has a comfort level with certain
    movement and prefers to use the basics with which they are the most capable.
    Some people believe that the techniques are the heart of Kenpo. They are. Unfortunately,
    too many people lose sight of why. Always remember, the techniques are vehicles for
    learning the principles of Kenpo. That is their lesson.



    Ideal Phase
    In the Ideal Phase the student learns the technique "by the book". This means the attack is
    specified, the defense is applied and the attackers reaction is known.
    What-If Phase
    In the What-If Phase the student(s) experiment with different possible scenarios for the
    attack and attackers reactions.
    Formulation Phase
    With the Formulation Phase the student tears apart the technique, explores its principles
    and develops alternate, spontaneous, reactions all with the aid the equation formula.
    Equation Formula

    The Equation Formula for fighting was designed as a formula to allow fighters to
    build/design logical and practical fighting techniques. It states that for any base move (ie
    punch/kick) or group of moves (technique - ie Delayed Sword) one may modify their
    intention by:
    1. Alter the target area, weapon, or both.
    2. Prefix a strike or block with an off angle body positioning (ie step out of the way of
    the weapon!).
    3. Perhaps Suffix your strike with one or several more.
    4. Rearrange the order of a technique. Instead of block-chop-punch change it to block-
    punch-chop (don’t forget to block though :-)).
    5. Insert a move, perhaps simultaneously, such as a check of another weapon.
    6. Delete a move to prevent unwanted injury to yourself, your opponent or to prevent
    unnecessary time spent engaging and less time leaving!
    7. You may wish to adjust the range or angle of the weapon.
    8. Regulate your weapons speed or force and you may get a very different reaction.

    Auther for the above is unknown to me...

    If you have read this far lol, im hope you will let me know what you have drawn from your reading...thanx
    "Mighty power like steel is our Kata and heritage which require a long time of practice and training. It is what men are seeking, just only for their self-respect and self-defense."
    MASTER MEITOKU YAGI

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    Default Re: Kenpo & Jeet kune do

    that was asome, i wish bruce was still around who knows what he could have came up with.
    It does not matter where the Martial art comes from. if it can help you defend yourself it is worth learning( Bruce Lee ) May the Force Be With You

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    Default Re: Kenpo & Jeet kune do

    Something that my instructor used to say was that Mr. Parker and Mr. Lee were after the exact same end result in a martial arts student's development:
    the ability to spontaneously express yourself and adapt to the needs of the moment through your martial ability. Mr. Lee went about this through the exploration of tools and tactics without a set format, Mr. Parker through a reliance on a strong foundation (basics/fundamentals) and then seeking an intuitive understanding of principles in motion and a thorough exploration of concepts/scenarios.

    interesting conjecture.

    Your Brother
    John
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    "Striving for success without hard work is like trying to harvest where you haven't planted"
    ~ David Bly

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    Default Re: Kenpo & Jeet kune do

    Thank you.

    I did enjoy the Chuck S. article about Bruce, and about HIS own "lengthening of his line of knowledge". It reminds me also of some of the "discussions" I used to have.

    DOC JOHN

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    Default Re: Kenpo & Jeet kune do

    Quote Originally Posted by unshackled-chi View Post


    Organized Despair, by Bruce Lee.
    ..............................................
    In the long history of the martial arts, the instinct to follow and imitate seems to be inherent in most martial artist, instructors and students alike. This is partly due to human tendency and partly because of steep traditions behind mutiple patterns of styles. Consequently, to find a refreshing, original, master teacher is a rarity. The need for a" pointer of the way echoes".

    Each man belongs to a style which claims to posses the truth to the exclusion of all other styles. These styles become institutes with their explanations of the "way" dissecting and isolating the harmony of firmness and gentleness, establishing rythmic forms as the paticular state of their techniques.

    Instaed of facing combat in it's suchness, then, most systems of martial art accumulate a "fancy mess" that distorts and cramps their practioners and distracts them from the actual reality of combat, which is simple and direct. Instead of going immediately to the heart of things, flowery forms (organized despair) and artificial techniques are ritualistcally practised to stimulate actual combat. Thus, instead of "being" in combat these practioners are doing something "about" combat.

    Worse still, super mental power and spiritual this and spiritual that are desperately incorprated until these practioners drift further and further into mystery and abstraction. All such things are futile attempts to arrest and fix the ever-changing movements in combat and to dissect and analyze them like a corpse.

    When you get down to it, real combat is not fixed and is very much "alive". The fancy mess ( a form of paralysis ) solidifies and conditions what was once fluid, and when you look at it realistically, it is nothing but a blind devotion to the systematic uselessness of practicing routines or stunts that lead nowhere.

    [ there is alot more from the tao of jeet kune do on the subject, i leave it up to the reader to decide to further investigate , if s/he chooses]


    Ed Parker.
    .................................................. ...

    "Its not who's right, but who's left."
    Ed Parker ...



    "When I am gone, I hope that people won't try to traditionalize my Art. I want you to always remember that Kenpo will always be the Art of Perpetual Change. If you remember this, then the Art will never become obsolete because it will change with the times. While the ignorant refuse to study and the intelligent never stop, we should always be mindful of the fact that our reward in life is proportionate with the contributions we make. A true Martial Artist is not one who fears change, but one who causes it to happen. To live is to change, and to obtain perfection is to have changed often. Progress is a necessity that is a part of nature. While it is true that casting the old aside is not necessary in order to obtain something new, we should study old theories not as a means of discrediting them, but to see if they can be modified to improve our present conditions. A word of advice, The humble man makes room for progress; the proud man believes he is already there."

    Edmund Kealoha Parker Sr.
    Volume 2, Infinite Insights


    .................................................. ................................................
    If you have read this far lol, im hope you will let me know what you have drawn from your reading...thanx
    So what happened with the rest of us?
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

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    Default Re: Kenpo & Jeet kune do

    What has happened with the rest of us?


    I love the martial arts, Kenpo specifically, and I respect those who constantly strive for understanding and knowledge. Over the years so many concepts and theories have been presented with zest, and passion, that one has a hard time understanding what is and is not practical for them, and by doing so forgetting the simplicity of natural reaction.

    Every martial art system and individual who studies the arts has a view and something great to share. This is true from the youngest of beginners to the most senior practitioners of the arts. Unfortunately if they don’t have a title or rank, we usually discard their input and replace it with our own understanding, thus losing the opportunity that exploration of their perspective could have presented. I for one am guilty of this.

    How is it that we have misplaced the purpose of unarmed self-defense, and replaced it with a coalition of followers whom believe that they are the way to the ultimate representation of self expression, leaving us only questioning their validation process, to support our own.

    The study of a style or system of combative arts, serves us by providing a base in which to reference the possibilities that may present themselves ,through observation within confrontations.

    For me the simple truth is this:
    Simplistic total engagement that provides the means to ending the confrontation with minimal risk to those or myself I care about.

    My deepest respect
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

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    Default Re: Kenpo & Jeet kune do

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    Something that my instructor used to say was that Mr. Parker and Mr. Lee were after the exact same end result in a martial arts student's development:
    the ability to spontaneously express yourself and adapt to the needs of the moment through your martial ability. Mr. Lee went about this through the exploration of tools and tactics without a set format, Mr. Parker through a reliance on a strong foundation (basics/fundamentals) and then seeking an intuitive understanding of principles in motion and a thorough exploration of concepts/scenarios.
    I think that this thought expresses much of the truth between the two. From what I have seen about both these men, their training system seems to say quite a bit about them. Bruce Lee seems to have had a little more selfish motivation (no disrespect intended), in that he was in it for how he could personally mature as a martial artist, rather than trying to gain as much of a "following" as he could—he was seeking his following through the silver screen rather than through his teaching skill.

    On the other hand, Ed Parker approached his training model as a business. He was actively seeking an "empire" of martial artists, and so his training system was organized and defined to make it easy to perpetuate.

    In the end, both made great contributions to the art, and both philosophies have given us much to think about as we pursue our own training and goals!

    Salute,
    __________________
    JB

    "He who hesitates...meditates in the horizontal position!"
    - Mr. Edmund K. Parker Sr.

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