View Poll Results: Should you have to fight for rank?

Voters
66. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. A true test of one's fighting ability is necessary

    48 72.73%
  • No. You're an idiot to fight unless it's for self-defense

    15 22.73%
  • Dunno...I want to know if I can fight, but getting hurt is bad, m'kay

    3 4.55%
Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 106

Thread: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    Perhaps not at lower levels, but as you approach the level of a "Black Belt" should you have to literally fight to get it?

    I haven't fought for rank in almost a decade and when I did it wasn't in Kenpo. When I attained my brown in jiu-jitsu I had to fight a string of other students (3 to be exact because that's all I could handle back-to-back before I gassed out! LOL ).

    We used little padding, only the hands, and striking, take-downs, and submissions were not only allowed, but encouraged. I ended up with bruised ribs and a cherry on my cheek but otherwise came out okay. I broke the first guys nose and split his lip, the second guys knee was hyper-extended, but that was all the injury that came of it that I remember.

    Is it worth it? Should student's get a "taste" of reality? Or is it insane to put yourself in that position when you don't have to?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Celtic_Crippler For This Useful Post:

    Brother John (05-21-2007),unshackled-chi (05-19-2007)

  3. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,743
    Thanks
    8
    Thanked 1,181 Times in 674 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    I voted No.

    As part of my black belt test, there was some continuous sparring involved, but I don't know that I would call it a fight.

    I think Mr. Hogan also has most Brown Belt students spar. For some reason, he did not demand that of me. It could be that at the time, I was training with my wife most regularly, and she was not interested in sparring. (She no longer studies kenpo)

    Mostly, I think the sparring, and other physical demands of the test, are primarily about bringing the candidate to the point of exhaustion; challenging the candidate to push him further than he has achieved in the past (or her). Mr. Hogan likes to see people vomit from stressing their bodies (I'm guessing). He is not so much interested in putting the hurt on a candidate because he has greater experience and skill.

    According to a story we hear occasionally, one of Mr. Hogan's early instructors used to like to have a candidate worn down through fighting with the lower rank black belts, and then the head instructor would come in and put a beating on the candidate. There are reports of broken bones. Apparently, this was to demonstrate who the 'Top Dog' was at the studio.

    Training should not equal abuse.

    At our school, Mr. Hogan challenges the mind, and stresses the body. Yes, we all get bruises, scrapes and bumps, occasionally. But, they are not part of the official curriculum.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to michaeledward For This Useful Post:

    Brother John (05-21-2007)

  5. #3
    unshackled-chi is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    california
    Posts
    385
    Thanks
    286
    Thanked 183 Times in 115 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    Im not sure, great post man. I would like to see it i think, i dont think it should be mandatory, some folks dont really take martial arts to fight ...and thats cool, if someone does it just for the fun etc.., but i have to be honest, if i could have an instructor who had to fight for his ranks and one one didnt to choose from hmmmmmm no brainer for me . The very thought of it brings Enshin to mind , and that is a seriously tough art, with some seriously tough folks.

    I would say , you could expect to see enshin in the ufc sometime soon or another event very close in nature doing very well, in it's traditional form.
    "Mighty power like steel is our Kata and heritage which require a long time of practice and training. It is what men are seeking, just only for their self-respect and self-defense."
    MASTER MEITOKU YAGI

  6. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Perhaps not at lower levels, but as you approach the level of a "Black Belt" should you have to literally fight to get it?
    I voted Yes. A true test of one's fighting ability is necessary. But, really, it depends on what the focus of your system is.

    The last school I attended had a policy that you could opt out of fighting with contact until brown, but you'd go no further without it.

    I've worked out with schools that regularly fought with hard contact and with some that only did tap-a-tap stuff. The tappers were mostly interested in tournaments and trophies, and they were pretty good. But they had some of the most unrealistic ideas of what would work in a fight. The hard contact guys were real good about disabusing you of stupid ideas (bruisin' an' contusin yer butt), but they were also good about showing you what you did wrong. I enjoyed both camps.

    Train and test how you feel comfortable. Contact and no contact are both valid, in the proper context. But don't delude yourself about what you are really training for.

    AS for those butt-wipes that like to hurt their training partners or students just to prove something, they are a blight on the martial arts. Training an MA requires a lot of trust in those you work with. We all need to go home to family and job as healthy as possible. Getting a joint destroyed by some sadistic jerk is a breach of trust. Take him out back and shoot him (just kiddi ...- no, actually, I'm not).

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

  7. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to thedan For This Useful Post:

    John Brewer (05-22-2007),Mikael151 (05-20-2007),unshackled-chi (05-19-2007)

  8. #5
    unshackled-chi is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    california
    Posts
    385
    Thanks
    286
    Thanked 183 Times in 115 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Perhaps not at lower levels, but as you approach the level of a "Black Belt" should you have to literally fight to get it?

    I haven't fought for rank in almost a decade and when I did it wasn't in Kenpo. When I attained my brown in jiu-jitsu I had to fight a string of other students (3 to be exact because that's all I could handle back-to-back before I gassed out! LOL ).

    We used little padding, only the hands, and striking, take-downs, and submissions were not only allowed, but encouraged. I ended up with bruised ribs and a cherry on my cheek but otherwise came out okay. I broke the first guys nose and split his lip, the second guys knee was hyper-extended, but that was all the injury that came of it that I remember.

    Is it worth it? Should student's get a "taste" of reality? Or is it insane to put yourself in that position when you don't have to?
    I think some good things have been said so far on this thread, im liking it lol. I think like said it would truly depend on you individual wants and desires. I also think now more so than ever that if someone was a casual student, just hanging out etc.. hey thats great, and they should be able to get a BB without fighting for it, but...but...BUT lol, maybe a new belt system should be considered, not re-invent the wheel but a certain stripe etc.. that seperates one who is qaulifed to teach the system as an instructor , because they did fight for it and know how to work the system in "aliveness" aka reality lol

    More or less one could have a BB in the system, or one could have a BB in the system and application of "what-ever-it-may-be"

    I like it lol
    "Mighty power like steel is our Kata and heritage which require a long time of practice and training. It is what men are seeking, just only for their self-respect and self-defense."
    MASTER MEITOKU YAGI

  9. #6
    Rickg is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Puyallup Washington
    Posts
    28
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    In what we call the bull ring. You stand in the middle of a circle of students. They start comming at you one at a time then two at a time then at the discretion of the intructor leading the test or class. Lasts until he is satisfied. (Usually lasts till person in middle is to weary to continue.) You must be able to defend yourself till the end to pass. Attackers use control but attacks can be fierce and hard. This is usually done for testing but can be a class event also.

  10. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    1,383
    Thanks
    1,964
    Thanked 473 Times in 341 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    I haven't voted yet. All of my instuctors are/have been bouncers, prison guards, or military. I have no doubt that the training I get from them will be effective. Should I have to fight for my next rank? That would be too easy. I didn't join Fight Club, after all. If I have to spar, or take a few good shots, I'm fine with that. But fighting for rank means that if I get lucky and kick some a.., then I'll get a rank I don't deserve and don't understand enough to pass on.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Michael Huffman
    1st Black, AKKI
    www.akki.com

  11. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Mikael151 For This Useful Post:

    bdparsons (12-04-2008),Brother John (05-21-2007),Celtic_Crippler (05-21-2007),MooseKenpo (05-31-2007)

  12. #8
    profesormental is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Beautiful Caribbean Island
    Posts
    500
    Thanks
    351
    Thanked 567 Times in 272 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    Greetings.

    The most important thing is to make sure that your skills are there in high stress/adrenal dump situations.

    Sparring helps this. "Rough" choreographed Practice Combat Scenarios help this. "Rough" alive drills with protection help this.

    "Rough" limits injuries. All out ends up with hurt practitioners.

    Too rough everyday makes practitioners very injury prone. Not much fun there.

    A cyclic approach seems appropiate.

    Review material ---> New Material ---> Drill it increasing the intensity gradually ---> repeat

    Also, drills that go adding dimensions with each evolution until you get to intense fighting is very instructional.

    In the end, injuries limit your students learning. Stay safe, yet tough... a fine line to walk, and not many like it.

    Enjoy!

    Juan M. Mercado

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to profesormental For This Useful Post:

    Mikael151 (05-20-2007)

  14. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    Actually you mean "spar".

    And, "yes", since I teach no one in a wheel chair, in my schools all students need to know how to spar. One sparring class a week is necessary or they are wasting their time.

    Now for the beginner rank testing, W, G, Y and O, a sparring test is not required, but sparring is required for all ranks past Gold belt.

    A sparring test is required for all ranks purple belt and up through 5th Dan.

    We are a martial art, not something else.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to John M. La Tourrette For This Useful Post:

    KenpoMD (05-20-2007),unshackled-chi (06-08-2007)

  16. #10
    Southwell's Avatar
    Southwell is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    London,Ont
    Posts
    353
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 52 Times in 28 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    Yes, I think you should have to spar for your rank, ESPECIALLY for Black Belt. The way it goes in our club is you fight continuous any or all the BB's on the testing panel and we always fight our instructor Jamie Seabrook.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Southwell For This Useful Post:

    unshackled-chi (06-08-2007)

  18. #11
    execkenpo is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Green Belt
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    601
    Thanks
    85
    Thanked 103 Times in 69 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    I voted yes. As part of the black belt grading process we do continuous sparring, switching partners every couple of minutes. I would say we go heavy but not full contact. You fight whoever is next in line, regardless of how many red bars are on the belt. To grade for 2nd you also have to go 2 on 1, third 3 on 1, etc.

    We don't fight for rank as underbelts, but I wouldn't have a problem with that as long as you are fighting within your belt level as underbelts.

  19. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to execkenpo For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (05-20-2007),unshackled-chi (06-08-2007)

  20. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    My own private Idaho
    Posts
    5,299
    Thanks
    4,907
    Thanked 3,587 Times in 2,193 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    I've read the posts and thought about it and I'm really on the fence on this one. If it's taken you 6-8 years to reach the point where you're ready for BB, haven't you already done a great deal of sparring? Doesn't your teacher know what your abilities are by this point? Granted, it's now a test and that can change things but I can see both sides on this issue. I think it's just as, if not more important for a perspective BB to show proficiency and knowledge of everything he's learned in the system up to BB. After all, at that level, he should be an expert in the system, shouldn't he? Make sparring a component of the test if you like but I do think the emphasis should be on the other stuff.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

  21. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca View Post
    I've read the posts and thought about it and I'm really on the fence on this one. If it's taken you 6-8 years to reach the point where you're ready for BB, haven't you already done a great deal of sparring? Doesn't your teacher know what your abilities are by this point? Granted, it's now a test and that can change things but I can see both sides on this issue. I think it's just as, if not more important for a perspective BB to show proficiency and knowledge of everything he's learned in the system up to BB. After all, at that level, he should be an expert in the system, shouldn't he? Make sparring a component of the test if you like but I do think the emphasis should be on the other stuff.
    Nope.

    I disagree.

    A "trial by passage" is necessary.

    As Celtic said, "we need to see their spirit" and "spirit" ONLY shows up under stress.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  22. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southwell View Post
    Yes, I think you should have to spar for your rank, ESPECIALLY for Black Belt. The way it goes in our club is you fight continuous any or all the BB's on the testing panel and we always fight our instructor Jamie Seabrook.
    I disagree with "especially for black belt".

    Here's why.

    If sparring and spirit is learned early and then polished throughout the ranks, THEN when they test for black belt, that sparring section is "no big thing".

    And at black belt, neither sparring, knife fighting, mass attacks, etc, should be any "big thing".

    It should be "just something that they can demonstrate "AT WILL" that they are good at and can pass on those secrets.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  23. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default the fight for rank is much more than fighting.

    Quote Originally Posted by profesormental View Post
    Greetings.
    Quote Originally Posted by profesormental View Post
    The most important thing is to make sure that your skills are there in high stress/adrenal dump situations.
    Sparring helps this. "Rough" choreographed Practice Combat Scenarios help this. "Rough" alive drills with protection help this.


    My only comment to your nice post Juan is this.

    The automatic and Triple Warmer "stressor" adrenaline type of situations cannot be removed quickly.

    I mean we could do a Fast Phobia technique, and fix their fear, but it would NOT install the proper reactions, strategies and tactics.

    I mean we could do the Inner Demon Destroyer to erase fear, apprehension and to install self-esteem and self-confidence, but they STILL DON’T know the proper reactions, strategies and tactics.

    The proper reactions, strategies and tactics are installed through visual-kinesthetic EXPERIENCES, over a vast amount of time, normally 4-7 years to achieve a black belt.

    So along with the strategies and tactics, the EXPERIENCES and the discipline, and the persistence will give them many skills consciously and subconsciously that NO THING else on the planet will give them.

    Now using certain technologies such as the “as if” reframe will help that training and those experiences.

    Using something like past time line therapy and installation of a New Behavior Generator will rocket launce the acquisitions of those skills.

    Now using deep trance identification with an expert, and then putting on their skills like putting on a pair of shoes while at a deep trance will give your unconscious mind a hook-up to the expert’s experiences in a neat way, and you STILL NEED to practice and experience what you are doing to hard wire it into your body.

    You can anchor past positive emotions and behaviors you have had and then fire them off at the appropriate times, and you STILL NEED to practice and experience those peak performing states, actions and tactics until they are second nature.

    The same with sparring easily as if you are going down to Wendi’s’ for a hamburger. No big thing.

    The belt sparring test is MUCH MORE than a fighting for rank.

    ©Dr. John M. La Tourrette


  24. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    My own private Idaho
    Posts
    5,299
    Thanks
    4,907
    Thanked 3,587 Times in 2,193 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Nope.

    I disagree.

    A "trial by passage" is necessary.

    As Celtic said, "we need to see their spirit" and "spirit" ONLY shows up under stress.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    And do you feel that sparring is the only way you can put them under stress and see their "spirit"?

    A "trial by passage" is necessary but that doesn't only mean a "trial by sparring". It is one method and an important one but by no means the only one. Again, I'm on the fence on this issue and can see both sides of it. Guess I'll let you know what I think when I get there.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

  25. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca View Post
    And do you feel that sparring is the only way you can put them under stress and see their "spirit"?

    A "trial by passage" is necessary but that doesn't only mean a "trial by sparring". It is one method and an important one but by no means the only one. Again, I'm on the fence on this issue and can see both sides of it. Guess I'll let you know what I think when I get there.
    Well,

    I teach martial arts.

    I also teach Hypnosis, NLP, and a few other things.

    And in the Mind Sciences, before I certify anyone to teach any of my skills, they MUST PRESENT THOSE SKILLS in front of me and other clients at one of my INTENSIVES.

    They MUST DEMONSTRATE IN REAL LIFE CIRCUMSTANCES that...

    1. they know the skill,

    2. they can teach the skills,

    3. and that their teaching is effective.

    So they must be able to "spar effectively" before I give them a 2 year credential to go out into the world on their own, teaching my skills.

    (YES, I do put a time limit on my certifications. Anyone know why? It's NOT the money. The testing is FREE.)

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  26. #18
    Carol's Avatar
    Carol is offline Deo duce, ferro comitante
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nashua, NH
    Posts
    2,007
    Thanks
    1,141
    Thanked 976 Times in 569 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    To me it depends. Personally as someone that has good cardiofitness but not the back/hips to run...I would much rather be at a school that spars for belt tests than one that has the student run X miles for a belt test.

    I don't like the way sparring can sometimes burn in detrimental habits due to its softer focus, but I also don't think that some dude 100 pounds heavier than me should smash my head into the ground all in the name of "alive training". At some point there needs to be a balance between risk and reward. The most important aspect to martial arts to me is health. I want to enjoy my life, career, friends, family, and other hobbies more by training and staying healthy. I don't see a value in training in a fashion that harms that balance more than it helps.

  27. #19
    KenpoMD's Avatar
    KenpoMD is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    City of Brotherly Love
    Posts
    336
    Thanks
    313
    Thanked 394 Times in 190 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    You're kidding, right?

    Of course you should have to fight for rank. Perhaps, not at the lower levels, where the emphasis should be good strong basics. Well before you get to black belt, however, you should learn how to apply what you are learning.

    It is true that sparring is not for everyone, but kenpo is not for everyone either. I'm not saying that you should have to get beat up to earn your belt, but you should be able to show that you can really defend yourself.

    If you can't you don't deserve the belt.

    At least that's my opinion...

    John
    Don't only practice your art, but force your way into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine.
    -
    Ludwig van Beethoven

  28. The Following User Says Thank You to KenpoMD For This Useful Post:

    Brother John (05-21-2007)

  29. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: Should you have to "Fight" for rank?

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Actually you mean "spar".

    And, "yes", since I teach no one in a wheel chair, in my schools all students need to know how to spar. One sparring class a week is necessary or they are wasting their time.

    Now for the beginner rank testing, W, G, Y and O, a sparring test is not required, but sparring is required for all ranks past Gold belt.

    A sparring test is required for all ranks purple belt and up through 5th Dan.

    We are a martial art, not something else.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    No, I mean "fight." I'm not talking about light-medium contact with padding. I have to do that now. To me, that's sparring. I'm talking about almost no padding and if you're going for a KO, TKO (opponent hurt so bad they can't or don't want to continue), or Submission.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Hello, I'm Frank Garza.
    By FGarza in forum Meet & Greet
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 07-17-2010, 01:09 PM
  2. Fusion Kenpo Karate - Frank Trejo
    By Martin Seck in forum Kenpo News
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-01-2007, 04:07 PM
  3. Frank Soto
    By blfycdq in forum Kenpo General
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 02-08-2007, 04:28 PM
  4. Frank Trejo Seminar
    By amylong in forum Kenpo General
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 02-20-2006, 01:21 AM
  5. About Frank Trejo Jr.
    By Bob Hubbard in forum Parkers Kenpo (EPAK) - General
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-14-2005, 04:14 PM