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Thread: What is a "Grand Master" really?

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    Default What is a "Grand Master" really?

    Snagged this from another board...
    The "Grand Master" title. What does it mean? What are the
    responsibilties and duties of a GM? What should be expected of a GM?
    My opening reply:

    Good question.

    I'll take a stab at it.


    Chess has grandmasters, defined thusly "Conferred by FIDE, it is the
    highest title (aside from World Champion) that one can achieve. It is
    awarded to players who meet established performance standards. Other
    titles (in order of importance) are International Master and FIDE
    Master. Once earned, these titles cannot be taken away." and "a player
    of exceptional or world class skill in chess or bridge"

    So, lets pare this down a bit.

    Highest Title
    Meet established performance standards
    Cannot be taken away
    a player of exceptional or world class skill

    I would add the following:
    Head of a martial arts organization and/or founder of a style/art.
    Individual who sets and establishes standards for the style/art
    Individual who develops / forms / perfects the art/style


    In Modern Arnis terms, Remy Presas was the founding GM because he pulled
    the components together that became Modern Arnis.
    He was the 'stick' against all others were measured.
    He set the standards and decided who was where in the pecking order.




    Hows that for a start?
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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    Bob, that was pretty good. Only, you forgot the other GM- the one that ordered a belt and photo-shoped his credentials, then got rich turning out bb's in three months or less.

    nah, yer right. Ferget that guy. I like your definition.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    A short post on this one . A "Master" in the Martial Arts is a man or women who has mastered the Art of combat, not a style or some fancy moves, but someone who is an expert in the field of for lack of better terms kicking a$$.

    If they cant do that ,then who cares in my opinion lol, also if everyone who was to be called "Master" had to be examined by this way of thinking, they would probably be alot less folks running around with "master" on their business cards...EH!


    Cool post, curious to see how this one goes
    "Mighty power like steel is our Kata and heritage which require a long time of practice and training. It is what men are seeking, just only for their self-respect and self-defense."
    MASTER MEITOKU YAGI

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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    ...pretty much sums it up the way I see it.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    I couldn't agree with you more about the Great Remy Presas. All others shall be measured by comparison to him. He gave us so much. I shall always remember his smiling face and how he loved teaching Arnis. We miss him so much!!!

    I am Most Respectfully,
    Sifuroy

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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Bob, that was pretty good. Only, you forgot the other GM- the one that ordered a belt and photo-shoped his credentials, then got rich turning out bb's in three months or less.

    nah, yer right. Ferget that guy. I like your definition.

    Dan C
    Well,

    I keep "hearing" rumors about this guy, but no one will give a name.

    What's his name?

    How do you know and verify he "ordered" his belt.

    How do you know and verify that he turns out "black belts" in 3 months or less?

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    Quote Originally Posted by unshackled-chi View Post
    A short post on this one . A "Master" in the Martial Arts is a man or women who has mastered the Art of combat, not a style or some fancy moves, but someone who is an expert in the field of for lack of better terms kicking a$$.
    Are you refering to Ed Parker?

    If so, I'm curious to why?

    Ed Parker was very good as the founder of American Kenpo Karate. He also, according to those of us that knew him, knew how to make money, especially with his organization and products.

    And, "why is that bad, in YOUR opinion?"

    Mr. Parker was Kenpo Karate's Grand Master, and he was good at business.

    There are other good "MINDS" that are grand masters and are good at business.

    I do NOT understand why "having a good mind" is an evil thing?

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Are you refering to Ed Parker?

    If so, I'm curious to why?

    Ed Parker was very good as the founder of American Kenpo Karate. He also, according to those of us that knew him, knew how to make money, especially with his organization and products.

    And, "why is that bad, in YOUR opinion?"

    Mr. Parker was Kenpo Karate's Grand Master, and he was good at business.

    There are other good "MINDS" that are grand masters and are good at business.

    I do NOT understand why "having a good mind" is an evil thing?

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

    Not at all mate, i know very little about Mr. Parker and certainly wasnt directing my comment tord anyone from any camp.

    If you are indeed a "Master" at combat from whatever system it may be, i say market away, go for it, there is nothing in my opinion wrong with making money doing something you love, the problem for me would be if you get to be called master simply because one casually worked his way through the ranks and has not been in a fight in his entire life, while all along selling false hope to people who blindly put their trust in you, to teach them how to survive.

    Developing a system in my opinion makes one a master no more than me cooking a steak makes me a chef, but developing a system that is effective and been proven and then being able to share and impart that knowledge to others for their good....well...this would make you a master!

    If someone told me they were a master capenter.. i would expect hime to be able to build cabniets.

    If someone told me they were a master chef...i would expect them to be able to cook really well.

    If someone told me they were a master of a Martial Art...well, i would expect that person to be able to fight and fight well!
    "Mighty power like steel is our Kata and heritage which require a long time of practice and training. It is what men are seeking, just only for their self-respect and self-defense."
    MASTER MEITOKU YAGI

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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    Interesting. I have to say I agree with this logic.
    If someone told me they were a master capenter.. i would expect hime to be able to build cabniets.

    If someone told me they were a master chef...i would expect them to be able to cook really well.

    If someone told me they were a master of a Martial Art...well, i would expect that person to be able to fight and fight well!
    The chef comparison is good too. A cook, follows a recipe. A good cook, produces consistant dishes, from recipes.
    A chef, innovates and develops new dishes.
    Then we get the Iron Chef, and he, he creates masterpieces pulling innovation out of his butt. (though hopefully none of the ingredients, lol).


    I've seen "grandmasters" whose certs were self-printed inkjet quickies, promoted by "attaboy" networks.

    I've also seen Grandmasters who in their 70's moved at a speed I couldn't match if I tried, with a smoothness I couldn't believe.

    So, I see the GM as the perfection of the art, and the fountain of innovation from which it sprung.
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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hubbard View Post
    Interesting. I have to say I agree with this logic.


    The chef comparison is good too. A cook, follows a recipe. A good cook, produces consistant dishes, from recipes.
    A chef, innovates and develops new dishes.
    Then we get the Iron Chef, and he, he creates masterpieces pulling innovation out of his butt. (though hopefully none of the ingredients, lol).


    I've seen "grandmasters" whose certs were self-printed inkjet quickies, promoted by "attaboy" networks.

    I've also seen Grandmasters who in their 70's moved at a speed I couldn't match if I tried, with a smoothness I couldn't believe.

    So, I see the GM as the perfection of the art, and the fountain of innovation from which it sprung.
    Good,

    So we are refering to a "MASTER OF A CRAFT" whatever that craft may be.

    Which, amusing enough, is the actual definition of what "kung-fu" means.

    How about dat?

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hubbard View Post
    In Modern Arnis terms, Remy Presas was the founding GM because he pulled
    the components together that became Modern Arnis.
    He was the 'stick' against all others were measured.
    He set the standards and decided who was where in the pecking order.
    As one of my former Modern Arnis instructors, I might add that more important than any of Remy's skills, he was one of the nicest guys one could ever know, full of humilty, and a great sense of humour!
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hubbard View Post
    Snagged this from another board...


    My opening reply:

    Good question.

    I'll take a stab at it.


    Chess has grandmasters, defined thusly "Conferred by FIDE, it is the
    highest title (aside from World Champion) that one can achieve. It is
    awarded to players who meet established performance standards. Other
    titles (in order of importance) are International Master and FIDE
    Master. Once earned, these titles cannot be taken away." and "a player
    of exceptional or world class skill in chess or bridge"

    So, lets pare this down a bit.

    Highest Title
    Meet established performance standards
    Cannot be taken away
    a player of exceptional or world class skill

    I would add the following:
    Head of a martial arts organization and/or founder of a style/art.
    Individual who sets and establishes standards for the style/art
    Individual who develops / forms / perfects the art/style


    In Modern Arnis terms, Remy Presas was the founding GM because he pulled
    the components together that became Modern Arnis.
    He was the 'stick' against all others were measured.
    He set the standards and decided who was where in the pecking order.




    Hows that for a start?
    Great answer, Bob.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    Now, here is the controversial question:

    How do you become a Grandmaster?

    There are a few ways to become a GM.
    - You get the nod from a board. Some are quality, and some aren't.
    - You assume the title
    - You are declared a successor by the current gm.
    - You are recognized as such by other gm's.

    Did I miss any?
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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hubbard View Post
    Now, here is the controversial question:

    How do you become a Grandmaster?

    There are a few ways to become a GM.
    - You get the nod from a board. Some are quality, and some aren't.
    - You assume the title
    - You are declared a successor by the current gm.
    - You are recognized as such by other gm's.

    Did I miss any?
    The first one is a qualified "okay". As you pointed out, it depends on the quality of the board.

    #2 is purely self serving, imo.

    #3 & 4 would be the preferrable route.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    You are declared a successor by the current gm.
    Who in turn got it the same way and so on, or you have "invented" your system and proved it works not only in theory and have been imparting that knowledge onto others ,who in turn can apply it and have proved it as well, at least your first say five students anyway...right?


    The same person keeps coming to mind for and example to me, Bruce Lee.
    Now here is a man , who created a system, left out all the "bs" taught folks , proved his system in real fight's and demonstrations etc.. but never called himself "Master".


    When he passed , he left all affairs to Dan who also doesnt call himself "master"

    How does one become a "master ? " The same way one gets a "masters" degree, by studying the chosen material, knowing it inside and out, taking the test and then going out into the real world and proving what you have learned.

    I say hold anyone who holds the title master, with the same sceptic mind that you would your family doctor. You would want to make damn sure that whoever passed the torch onto your doc was first class right?

    A martial Arts "master's" job is to teach you how to not need the "master" doctor.
    The "master" doctor is there for when the "master" teacher has failed hahaha
    "Mighty power like steel is our Kata and heritage which require a long time of practice and training. It is what men are seeking, just only for their self-respect and self-defense."
    MASTER MEITOKU YAGI

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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    From MartialPedia
    http://www.martialtalk.net/wiki/index.php/Grandmaster

    Grandmaster

    The term Grandmaster in the martial arts world is the pinnacle title for some martial art styles. There are multiple meanings behind the term grandmaster depending on the lineage of the master, the style he or she practices and the method in which the grandmaster title is bestowed or claimed. In Chinese systems the modern translation of Standard Bearer is also used for the term grandmaster and representative of the style.

    In traditional systems each style has only one grandmaster who is the head or father figure of the entire style and acts as the overseer and example to all the style's adherents. It is the grandmaster's duty to see that the style continues on intact to the next generation of students and masters as well as look deeply into the style itself for anything that can be strengthened in any way. As the grandmaster it is he only who has the authority to change the style's format for future generations legitimately. Usually, the grandmaster from one generation to the next is a prized disciple of the last grandmaster who has trained and mastered all the style's aspects including fighting techniques, theory and philosophy, and is publicly named the next grandmaster upon the current one's retirement. In various systems there are different traditions regarding this passing on of the title, some of which include a match between the successor and former heads of the style in order to demonstrate the new grandmaster's grasp of the style and his skill in its use.

    A second use of the title is Tai Si Gong (Chinese) which literally translates to grandfather or master's master. This dates back to the family systems of martial arts where the Sifu or Sensei is the master and father figure of the students. The grandfather then is the generation beyond that and to the present students would be known as grandfather. This of course refers to a level of skill and wisdom for the grandmaster, however it is not the same as being THE grandmaster of a style.

    Some more modern grandmasters claim the title is earned simply by them having promoted a student to master level, thus rewarding themselves and their accomplishment as an instructor with a higher level title. This is similar to the familial system as described above, but is not the same.
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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    I keep "hearing" rumors about this guy, but no one will give a name.
    What's his name?
    How do you know and verify he "ordered" his belt.
    How do you know and verify that he turns out "black belts" in 3 months or less?
    You're tryin to get me in trouble. OK, except for ordering a belt and photoshoping, there's a "Native American" who'll send you everything you need to open your school, if you're willing to pay.

    All the knowlege on tape.
    BB cert, and belt.
    And everything you need to open a sanctioned school.

    You don't even have to test. How do I know? Hell, he advertises everywhere. The post was a toung in cheek reply, but it does exist in many forms.This kind of thing is rampant in the ma world, and we've all seen it. I'm betting you have come across it as well.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    You're tryin to get me in trouble. OK, except for ordering a belt and photoshoping, there's a "Native American" who'll send you everything you need to open your school, if you're willing to pay.

    All the knowlege on tape.
    BB cert, and belt.
    And everything you need to open a sanctioned school.

    You don't even have to test. How do I know? Hell, he advertises everywhere. The post was a toung in cheek reply, but it does exist in many forms.This kind of thing is rampant in the ma world, and we've all seen it. I'm betting you have come across it as well.

    Dan C
    In Kenpo Karate?

    No I've not.

    And the rest of the world, I really do not pay much attention to unless they get in my way.

    I do not read the newspaper. I do not watch television news.

    I mostly spend my time on things that are "exciting" and "fun" for me.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    Hey a great thing about Grandmasters is, there are always some around when you need them.

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    Default Re: What is a "Grand Master" really?

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    In Kenpo Karate?

    No I've not.
    You lead a sheltered life.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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