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Thread: What's Good for One is Good for All

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    Default What's Good for One is Good for All

    First, let's start with a premise; one of the problems with training two arts is the differences in the way those arts index their moves. Internally and externally, many arts differ greatly in the way they set up their basics, like strikes, blocks, and footwork. These basics are ingrained into muscle/synaptic memory, and when training two different arts, these methods compete on the most basic level- which is the same level at which your survival mechanisms operate! This creates what Doc calls "synaptic clutter."

    Many say that this is one reason you should not train in, or even work out with, another art/system/style before black belt. Now, this seems to me to be illogical. No matter the level of training or rank, introducing competing proprioceptive cues into your response mechanisms would seem to me to be a bad thing. Confusion is confusion regardless what you wear on your waist. So how do you justify your stand on the issue of bb's cross training? Disagree with the premise? Think they can just handle the mess internally at the same time they handle the bad guy externally? Maybe the belt is magic ..., you tell me.

    Dan (and, no, I havn't changed my position on cross training or working out with other stylists.) C
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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    I think it depends on the content-level of the martial-art people are studying. For someone very much into the 'indexing' and internalization side of things then learning another art would feel very unnatural to them. But if someone were training at a purely external level then it would be less of an issue - perhaps there wouldn't be as much 'clutter' because there isn't much there to begin with?

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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    First, let's start with a premise; one of the problems with training two arts is the differences in the way those arts index their moves. Internally and externally, many arts differ greatly in the way they set up their basics, like strikes, blocks, and footwork. These basics are ingrained into muscle/synaptic memory, and when training two different arts, these methods compete on the most basic level- which is the same level at which your survival mechanisms operate! This creates what Doc calls "synaptic clutter."

    Many say that this is one reason you should not train in, or even work out with, another art/system/style before black belt. Now, this seems to me to be illogical. No matter the level of training or rank, introducing competing proprioceptive cues into your response mechanisms would seem to me to be a bad thing. Confusion is confusion regardless what you wear on your waist. So how do you justify your stand on the issue of bb's cross training? Disagree with the premise? Think they can just handle the mess internally at the same time they handle the bad guy externally? Maybe the belt is magic ..., you tell me.

    Dan (and, no, I havn't changed my position on cross training or working out with other stylists.) C

    Hi Dan,

    I don't bother to justify it, I just have a wide range of interests and I pursue those. I jokingly refer to it as "The Curse of the Perpetually Curious". It starts with training in one art for a while, then you eventually look over there and see some people doing something else that also looks good. So I wander over and take some classes to see what it's all about, and the next thing I know, I'm hooked. But not willing to give up the first one, I start to practice them both. Then another art catches my attention, and another after that...

    I was a shodan in Tracy kenpo before I trained in another method, but perhaps part of that was because I was living in a small town at the time and there were no other options until I moved out.

    I have trained in arts that are vastly different. After kenpo, I tinkered in a little judo and a certain messy conglomeration of Chinese arts that shall remain nameless. I eventually left that stuff behind. Not interested enough to keep doing it.

    Later, I fell into capoeira and trained it like a fiend for a number of years. Couldn't get enough of it. Didn't do much kenpo during this time. Then, got into legitimate Chinese arts, stuff that was very very different from kenpo and capoeira, and even from each other. Tibetan White Crane is a highly mobile, longarm method. Probably as long as you can get without holding a weapon in your hand. But I also learned Wing Chun, probably the shortest range method you can get without actually grappling. And throw some tai chi chuan in there as well. Mostly Chen style, but a little Yang and Sun as well. And some elements of Shaolin as well. And all these arts have very different approaches to training, and basics, and stances, etc. And now I am retraining my kenpo with a new teacher, after being mostly away from it for 15 years or so.

    So how do I not get confused? I don't know exactly, but I don't get confused. When I train kenpo, I train kenpo. When I train Wing Chun, I train Wing Chun. Same with White Crane, and Tai Chi, and Capoeira. I don't mix them up. I don't combine them. I keep their elements distinct from each other because if you mix them up, then you can find yourself trying to deal with conflicting material. But the techniques of each art, when trained from it's proper respective base, works well. Trying to throw White Crane punches from a Wing Chun base just does not work at all. Trying to work kenpo SD techs from Capoeira's ginga base would be an uphill battle. But at the same time, learning each art will in some way influence how you do your others.

    But I believe that if you need to actually fight, you can mix it up then and pull out what is appropriate, and you will probably naturally fall back on what you are most comfortable with and that might not be equal from one method to the other. Just don't mix it when training.

    In the Chinese arts, training in several methods seems to me to be much more common. There is a more open attitude about it, most of the good teachers have done it, even if they ultimately focus and specialize in just one method. But gaining that broad understanding is seen as a positive thing. The methods are different, but that doesn't make them wrong. Learn them for what they are, and then later decide if it might be wrong or right FOR YOU. But that doesn't mean it is wrong or right in an absolute way. And eventually, you will probably settle on one or two methods that are best for you.

    I think there can be an attitudinal danger among people who have only trained in one art. They may become very very skilled in their own art. But they sometimes also have the attitude that their own art does everything "right", and everyone else somehow has it "wrong". In my opinion, "right and wrong" are often not absolutes, when it comes to martial arts. If you ever saw how we do things in Tibetan White Crane, or Capoeira, you would probably think it is really messed up, if you look at it from a kenpo perspective, violating all kinds of kenpo "rules" and what not. But some of the guys who do these arts are scary good, and you would not want to mess with them. It can also be tremendously effective. These other arts have no interest in validating what they do thru a kenpo perspective. In fact, they often look at kenpo and say "what's all that nonsense?" I've had my own teachers in the Chinese arts express that exact sentiment. Kenpo has it's own methods that are somewhat unique, and make it pretty foreign when viewed by others.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that I believe the real codification of the arts into THIS or THAT particular art is somewhat newer in history. I don't have any research to back this up, it is just my opinion from what I have read and observed over the years. So elements of many "methods" got borrowed and shared over time, and there was often less of a notion of "crosstraining", because in some way, much of this stuff was considered just another part of the greater whole, so why not learn it and bring it in to what you are doing, and there was little notion of conflict in doing this. Now as I expressed earlier, I definitely dont' think EVERYTHING can be mixed up, at least not in training. But an openness to learning other things should be.

    Just my opinion.
    Michael


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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    I think it depends on the content-level of the martial-art people are studying. For someone very much into the 'indexing' and internalization side of things then learning another art would feel very unnatural to them. But if someone were training at a purely external level then it would be less of an issue - perhaps there wouldn't be as much 'clutter' because there isn't much there to begin with?

    Sadly, Mr. James, that is not how we learn. All learning, especially learning motor skills, is internal. It is a function of the proprioceptive system, and occurs at a neurological level. Watch someone learning to ride a bike. They start out with a serries of singular, dissociated moves. The front wheel wobbles and jerks as they screw up their face in concentration. The whole ordeal is a pannicky serries of overcorrections and catches, and a few falls.

    As they practice, things smoothe out. In a few days they are rideing along fine and waving to friends, not even thinking about controling the bike. This is because the necessary skills are becoming ingrained into synaptic memory. If it didn't work this way, our minds would be too overloaded with the simplest tasks for us to accomplish much.

    Same with the martial arts. We learn by doing, and it is learned internally, set in subconsciouse memory by repitition. One system fires everything from point of origin, the other chambers. Which will you do in a crisis? You learn to kick with positive forward engagement, then train with a school that rocks back into a cat stance. What effect might this have on the structure of your base when you have to kick some charging behemoth and make it stop him? Blocks- most use the fist chambered at the ear, then drop the block. Those exposed to Doc's methods go through a different sequence to set up the structure in the blocking arm. In application, all the structure and muscle engagement you learn from whichever sequence you train should be in your block when it is fired from point of origin- but, wait!!!- you're training two AK systems at once! What is likely to be there now?

    Neither the belt, nor your level of experience, will change the way you learn. You must work within the framework of what you are as a human animal. The only result of going against this will be confusion, hesitation, and inefective application.

    Dan C
    Last edited by thedan; 05-15-2007 at 02:21 PM.
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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    I don't bother to justify it, I just have a wide range of interests and I pursue those. I jokingly refer to it as "The Curse of the Perpetually Curious". ... So how do I not get confused? I don't know exactly, but I don't get confused. When I train kenpo, I train kenpo. When I train Wing Chun, I train Wing Chun. Same with White Crane, and Tai Chi, and Capoeira. I don't mix them up. I don't combine them. I keep their elements distinct from each other because if you mix them up, then you can find yourself trying to deal with conflicting material. But the techniques of each art, when trained from it's proper respective base, works well. ... But I believe that if you need to actually fight, you can mix it up then and pull out what is appropriate, and you will probably naturally fall back on what you are most comfortable with and that might not be equal from one method to the other. Just don't mix it when training.

    In the Chinese arts, training in several methods seems to me to be much more common. There is a more open attitude about it, most of the good teachers have done it, even if they ultimately focus and specialize in just one method. ... eventually, you will probably settle on one or two methods that are best for you.

    I think there can be an attitudinal danger among people who have only trained in one art. They may become very very skilled in their own art. But they sometimes also have the attitude that their own art does everything "right", and everyone else somehow has it "wrong". ...
    Michael, another good and thought provoking post! I agree with most of it, with reservations.

    My view is that, if you are going to be optimally effective, you have to bring it all back to one base method. Yes, it is common in CMA's to train in several arts. But, as you said, they eventually settle into one and use their experience in others to enhance the understanding of that art.

    I prefer to just work out with and learn from others, then apply it to what I know. Training different methods of internal indecies is confusing, but at a level that may not be apparent until you need it for real.

    There are some arts, especially some FMA systems, that are flexable enough that you could keep all your indexing methods and apply the same in both systems. But that is rare.

    Excellant point about schools that only train with their own. They are generally in for a rude awakening at some point.

    Dan C
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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    hmmm yes I see what you mean. So in that case I'd agree, really there is no way to train different styles without causing 'clutter'. Unless the styles contained very similar movements? Maybe if the applications were different but the basic movements/indexes complemented each other?

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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    hmmm yes I see what you mean. So in that case I'd agree, really there is no way to train different styles without causing 'clutter'. Unless the styles contained very similar movements? Maybe if the applications were different but the basic movements/indexes complemented each other?
    Possibly, if you can find systems that are that similar. And the applications, being an abstract concept, are the same. I believe they are what you make them, not what is written in the manual.

    Dan C
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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Michael, another good and thought provoking post! I agree with most of it, with reservations.

    My view is that, if you are going to be optimally effective, you have to bring it all back to one base method. Yes, it is common in CMA's to train in several arts. But, as you said, they eventually settle into one and use their experience in others to enhance the understanding of that art.

    I prefer to just work out with and learn from others, then apply it to what I know. Training different methods of internal indecies is confusing, but at a level that may not be apparent until you need it for real.

    There are some arts, especially some FMA systems, that are flexable enough that you could keep all your indexing methods and apply the same in both systems. But that is rare.

    Excellant point about schools that only train with their own. They are generally in for a rude awakening at some point.

    Dan C

    I think everyone finds their own way to deal with this issue.

    One other point that I believe affects this issue is that in the modern day, we have far more choices available to us. Probably a few generations ago a skilled martial arts teacher was harder to find, certainly in the US, and perhaps even in Asia. We are much more mobile today, we can travel farther to train with someone. Back in the day, when everyone was on foot or rode a donkey if they were lucky, that good teacher on the other side of yonder small mountain may as well have been a thousand miles away. So the only real options were those teachers who were close enough to get to on foot. There was little option but to remain focused on one method, and this was probably also true in Asia.

    But today we are exposed to much more. Of course the downside is that now we have to wade thru a tide of lousy teachers and self-proclaimed grandmasters. And too many choices can mean that we are simply distracted. I live in San Francisco, which has probably the richest selection of Chinese martial arts and Capoeira in the US, (but surprisingly little kenpo). But there are still a lot of lousy schools too. It can be distracting, 'cause there is simply so much cool stuff!

    But at any rate, I think it's an issue that different people resolve differently for themselves. For some, their chosen art is IT, and they aren't interested in others. For some, they look around and see what else they can incorporate into what they are doing, and get it to fit their method. For others, we dive in and train other arts as completely as possible, even if drastically different from a prior art. In some cases, one might even drift away from their first art, if a new art holds a stronger interest. I think these are all good methods, if it works for you.
    Michael


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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    I think everyone finds their own way to deal with this issue.
    Yes, to a degree. One of the reasons I asked is because I'm facing that decission now. It isn't looking good for finding people who want to train Taiji even a little as a martial art. I may end up in another system. But, damn, it would just be hard to give up Kenpo methods for some of those in the other schools. But, if I'm training their way, then I'd have to give up Kenpo or create the kind of confusion I'm talking about.

    One other point that I believe affects this issue is that in the modern day, we have far more choices available to us. ... Of course the downside is that now we have to wade thru a tide of lousy teachers and self-proclaimed grandmasters.
    As I read that, I'm thinking "Yeah, and there probably weren't as many twenty-something year old masters, either."

    I think it's an issue that different people resolve differently for themselves. For some, their chosen art is IT, and they aren't interested in others. For some, they look around and see what else they can incorporate into what they are doing, and get it to fit their method. For others, we dive in and train other arts as completely as possible, even if drastically different from a prior art. In some cases, one might even drift away from their first art, if a new art holds a stronger interest. I think these are all good methods, if it works for you.
    Ultimately, yes. We all make our choices, and live with the results.

    Dan C
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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    Kenpo is supposed to be a practical, effective, and logical martial art so the way I look at things is that if something works it is "Kenpo."

    That being said, if I was exposed to a curriculum that taught principles and concepts that conflicted with the logical science of Kenpo, then I would know I was in the wrong place!

    I've worked out with people from various backgrounds and styles, and some, though not labeled as "kenpo", definately teach things that are applicable to modern self-defense and are indeed logical in application and quite practical to put to use. These quite easily fit and meld with my "Kenpo."
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Yes, to a degree. One of the reasons I asked is because I'm facing that decission now. It isn't looking good for finding people who want to train Taiji even a little as a martial art. I may end up in another system. But, damn, it would just be hard to give up Kenpo methods for some of those in the other schools. But, if I'm training their way, then I'd have to give up Kenpo or create the kind of confusion I'm talking about.


    Dan C
    First, may I ask why you are faced with this decision? Maybe you have posted it in other threads, but I think I've missed it. I recall you are dealing with an injury, is that the reason you think you cannot continue with kenpo? That may be an issue, but that could affect any other art you train as well. Or not. Depends on your approach and stuff.

    As far as tai chi as a martial method, it is true, most teachers do not do this. They practice and teach primarily as an excercise and health method. Many of them don't understand tai chi as a fighting method, and that's just the way it is.

    As far as getting into another method, and having to give up kenpo, I don't understand why you would need to do this? Why give up kenpo altogether? If an injury completely makes it impossible to continue, I can understand that, but if you can get into another method, then why give up kenpo? I don't know what level you have achieved, but I figure, you know what you know. Take it with you, make it your own, keep working on it, even if at a reduced level, even if you cannot train more with a teacher, even if it is incomplete information and you don't know the entire system and you are a yellow belt. It's still yours, make it as good as it can be.

    If you do get into another method, just remember: you must "empty your cup" and learn the new art on its own merits. I don't believe emptying your cup means throwing away what you have already done. It just means being receptive to new things in a new method. If you try to learn Choy Lay Fut, for example, but want to do it like kenpo and expect it to be analyzed in the same way as kenpo, you are making a mistake, trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. CLF is different from kenpo, it needs to be done its own way. If you try to do it based on how you understand kenpo, you will never learn it properly. You will inappropriately judge it based on your understanding of kenpo, and you will conclude that it is no good and doesn't work. But in that case, the truth is that you simply didn't give yourself the chance to learn and understand it properly, on it's own merits. Other arts don't necessarily do things the way they are done in kenpo, nor pay attention to the same details in the same way. But they still can be tremendously effective and have a lot to offer. Later, if you decide a new art is not right for you, then that is a fair judgement. But only after you have learned it the way it is supposed to be done, and not try to make it like something else that you have already done.

    This is why I keep all my arts separate when I practice them. I do them for their own merits, as they are meant to be done, to the best of my ability.

    Hope this helps...
    Michael


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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    I am certainly in agreement with Celtic. A lot of people do Kenpo and don't even know it. If it is self defense and it works ,it is probably Kenpo.

    I am most Respectfully,
    Sifuroy

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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    In absorbing other material, what is important, is that you view it through your handy Kenpo Glasses. By and large, providing you understand the fundamental principals taught to you in kenpo, you should have all the tools necessary to be able to analyze techniques and principals from other systems and decide for yourself, what works or doesn't work. Sometimes techniques or ideas from other styles, already embrace proper physics and can be readily acclimated without any adaptation. In other instances, many techniques can be adjusted to work with our core principals of motion. Others yet, you will find are completely alien to our way of understanding. Sometimes these techniques bear experimentation, to see if proper physics may be applied to the techniques to make them work for us.

    The true key here, is first obtaining proper and thorough understanding of all that is before us in our own curriculum, then and only then can you really judge the inherent rightness of any given technique.

    It would difficult, if not impossible, for the layman to break down and reassemble an internal combustion engine, without the proper tools and knowledge of what the parts are doing to begin with, however once one possesses the right tools, understands how to use them properly and has a fair understanding of how one engine works, then it becomes easier to tackle the next one. (This said by someone who barely understand which end of the wrench to hold onto!)
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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    In absorbing other material, what is important, is that you view it through your handy Kenpo Glasses. By and large, providing you understand the fundamental principals taught to you in kenpo, you should have all the tools necessary to be able to analyze techniques and principals from other systems and decide for yourself, what works or doesn't work. Sometimes techniques or ideas from other styles, already embrace proper physics and can be readily acclimated without any adaptation. In other instances, many techniques can be adjusted to work with our core principals of motion. Others yet, you will find are completely alien to our way of understanding. Sometimes these techniques bear experimentation, to see if proper physics may be applied to the techniques to make them work for us.


    I actually see some real problems in this approach. The only way to understand another art is to TAKE OFF the kenpo glasses, and learn and understand the other art on its own merits, and not thru trying to reconcile it with kenpo. Some things that may seem wrong based on kenpo methods, actually work quite well. Just because it's different, doesn't mean it's wrong or ineffective. You need an open mind to explore this, otherwise you are trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

    The true key here, is first obtaining proper and thorough understanding of all that is before us in our own curriculum, then and only then can you really judge the inherent rightness of any given technique.


    Again, Kenpo is not the final authoritiy on rightness of any given technique. Yes, understand your own curriculum, but that is not necessarily a basis on which to judge anything else.

    It would difficult, if not impossible, for the layman to break down and reassemble an internal combustion engine, without the proper tools and knowledge of what the parts are doing to begin with, however once one possesses the right tools, understands how to use them properly and has a fair understanding of how one engine works, then it becomes easier to tackle the next one. (This said by someone who barely understand which end of the wrench to hold onto!)
    interesting analogue, but I think not accurate. Yes, you need the right "tools" to understand and do the job. But kenpo isn't the only method to give you those tools. Kenpo gives you the tools to best work in kenpo. Other arts give you the tools to best work in other arts. You wouldn't take a welder to a wood carving job. Different job, different tools. Different arts, different methods.

    Yes, there is probably a certain amount of crossover, but definitely not absolute.
    Michael


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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    Quote Originally Posted by sifuroy View Post
    I am certainly in agreement with Celtic. A lot of people do Kenpo and don't even know it. If it is self defense and it works ,it is probably Kenpo.I am most Respectfully,Sifuroy
    You guys are actually funny.

    Here's why.

    Dan C, Celtic and sifuroy are all global thinkers, and those that "think the BIG picture" see the results of their actions.

    And Ken = fist, po = method, law, etc.

    So anything (system of martial art) that is an effective method is a form of "Kenpo" Karate.

    Now, those that are chunk sequencial thinkers will argue themselves blue in the fact talking about "lone kimono"...

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    sifuroy (05-23-2007),thedan (05-15-2007)

  26. #16
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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    [/color]
    interesting analogue, but I think not accurate. Yes, you need the right "tools" to understand and do the job. But kenpo isn't the only method to give you those tools. Kenpo gives you the tools to best work in kenpo. Other arts give you the tools to best work in other arts. You wouldn't take a welder to a wood carving job. Different job, different tools. Different arts, different methods.
    Yes, there is probably a certain amount of crossover, but definitely not absolute.
    Yep.
    You chunked down,

    They chunked up,

    Same elephant,

    you are looking at the feet.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    ... why you are faced with this decision?
    Several injuries, particularly to the neck nand shoulders. And it will definately effect anything I train- part of what makes this so difficult to sort out.

    As far as getting into another method, and having to give up kenpo, I don't understand why you would need to do this? ... I figure, you know what you know. Take it with you, make it your own, keep working on it, even if at a reduced level, ...
    Synaptic confusion.

    I agree in part. Kenpo is great, and it adapts and can be adapted to. But training in a different system and working Kenpo can cause confusion in "muscle memory." The problem is where do you draw the line- at what point is going back to Kenpo a detriment? Definately in the area of indexing moves. And, if the other systems don't index effectively, and they don't, I'll have to make a choice. But, in their school, there is only one choice- their way.

    I'm receptive to new ideas. However, I never accept carte-blanch what I'm told is better. Prove it, or show me how, and I'll change my mind. Otherwise, no. Some indexing methods I can accept as good, even if not optimal. Others are just plain wrong. You are correct, though. To really know, you have to give them a chance. You get into a bit of a bog when you start trying to do both at once, though.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    In absorbing other material, what is important, is that you view it through your handy Kenpo Glasses. By and large, providing you understand the fundamental principals taught to you in kenpo, you should have all the tools necessary to be able to analyze techniques and principals from other systems and decide for yourself, what works or doesn't work. The true key here, is first obtaining proper and thorough understanding of all that is before us in our own curriculum, then and only then can you really judge the inherent rightness of any given technique.
    So, your contention is that only a black belt has the proper level of understanding to understand what is good and what's not? I'm a white belt, and I can see more than most of the blacks I've met when looking at techs from different systems. Not the better trained AK blacks, for sure. But, I hate to report, they ain't all that'a'way. And if they train two methods of indexing they will be synaptically confused, no matter how much they understand. So how does this help?

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Dan C, Celtic and sifuroy are all global thinkers, and those that "think the BIG picture" see the results of their actions.
    Yes, and I feel like 'Tevia, "He's right. ... You know, he is also right. ... They're both right." I can see the merits in their arguments, but I actually think they are both wrong. On the other hand, if i were a rich man, it wouldn't matter.

    Dan (tried to chunk down, and found myself looking at the butt) C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: What's Good for One is Good for All

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    You guys are actually funny.

    Here's why.

    Dan C, Celtic and sifuroy are all global thinkers, and those that "think the BIG picture" see the results of their actions.

    And Ken = fist, po = method, law, etc.

    So anything (system of martial art) that is an effective method is a form of "Kenpo" Karate.

    Now, those that are chunk sequencial thinkers will argue themselves blue in the fact talking about "lone kimono"...

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    well that is an interesting way to simplify it all, based on the meaning of the term without regard to context or historical use.

    I guess we could also just use a few other terms as well...

    Goshin-jutsu= method of self defense
    tae kwon do=hand and foot art
    karate=empty hand
    wushu=fighting method

    take your pick. what's your poison?
    Michael


    de gustibus non disputante est.
    Negative Douche Bag Number One

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