Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: What defines "Traditional"?

  1. #1
    Bob Hubbard's Avatar
    Bob Hubbard is offline Retired


    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Buffalo, New York, United States
    Posts
    5,610
    Thanks
    1,012
    Thanked 2,161 Times in 1,157 Posts

    Default What defines "Traditional"?

    What is a "Traditional" art?
    What makes an art a traditional one, and what makes an art a modern one?
    Can an art be both traditional and modern, or are the terms mutually exclusive?


    What is the "Traditional" way of finding a teacher?
    ....gaining acceptance?
    ....developing mastery?
    ....gaining promotion?
    ....becoming a leader?
    ....becoming -the- master?


    People have long argued over the term 'traditional'. I think....it needs to be defined.



    So, any one up for what promises to be a possibly heated topic?
    For ANY and ALL KenpoTalk issues, please use theContact Us link here or at page bottom right. Do NOT PM me for site support.

  2. #2
    unshackled-chi is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    california
    Posts
    385
    Thanks
    286
    Thanked 183 Times in 115 Posts

    Default Re: What defines "Traditional"?

    Ill take a crack at it haha,


    "Traditional" Martial Arts in my opinion are arts that train dead patterns over and over, following the script of those that came before them without understanding the way that they trained.

    Its going a couple a nights a week to traing against punches and kicks that you know are coming at the speed of evolution, no resistence, no actual moving around in a fighting manner, as Bruce said " doing something about combat"


    The "Traditional" way when first invented regardless of art was great im sure, it was fresh and alive, trained hard, developing the attributes to make a fighter.

    Traditional arts are taking forty moves to what one simple attack could accomplish, its following a stance, instead of developing footwork that could carry you in and out of range quickly, and its only real problem , is in the manner its trained...no sparring...non- traditional martial arts aim to rid themselves of the mystic non-sense and get to the point, to train in a manner that resembles actual fighting , so in need of skills to fight they have been developing them, not throwing punches at the air for 5 years, while these have their uses, it is crippling to " real fight" if the practioner doesnt get the hidden messege of the practice and spend his time also sparring.


    While we cant predict the unpredictable, if i had to put money on someone, id put my money on a fighter who has been trainning for less time but has sparred regularly , over a guy who has been kicking the air for 15 years with no sparring, if were not being hit while preforming our techs ,we really just dont know! Nothing could replace experiance.

    Im sorry Bob, i got off topic, Traditional arts train patterns, non traditional arts fight.

    Once again , no disrespect intended tord anyones arts or abilities, just my black and white take on it,maybe it will like Bob said bring up some good debate, in a respetfull manner hahaha
    "Mighty power like steel is our Kata and heritage which require a long time of practice and training. It is what men are seeking, just only for their self-respect and self-defense."
    MASTER MEITOKU YAGI

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to unshackled-chi For This Useful Post:

    sifuroy (05-20-2007)

  4. #3
    Bob Hubbard's Avatar
    Bob Hubbard is offline Retired


    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Buffalo, New York, United States
    Posts
    5,610
    Thanks
    1,012
    Thanked 2,161 Times in 1,157 Posts

    Default Re: What defines "Traditional"?

    It's a fair answer though.

    I've got my own thoughts, but will post them later on.
    For ANY and ALL KenpoTalk issues, please use theContact Us link here or at page bottom right. Do NOT PM me for site support.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    My own private Idaho
    Posts
    5,299
    Thanks
    4,907
    Thanked 3,587 Times in 2,193 Posts

    Default Re: What defines "Traditional"?

    Quote Originally Posted by unshackled-chi View Post
    Ill take a crack at it haha,


    "Traditional" Martial Arts in my opinion are arts that train dead patterns over and over, following the script of those that came before them without understanding the way that they trained.

    Its going a couple a nights a week to traing against punches and kicks that you know are coming at the speed of evolution, no resistence, no actual moving around in a fighting manner, as Bruce said " doing something about combat"


    The "Traditional" way when first invented regardless of art was great im sure, it was fresh and alive, trained hard, developing the attributes to make a fighter.

    Traditional arts are taking forty moves to what one simple attack could accomplish, its following a stance, instead of developing footwork that could carry you in and out of range quickly, and its only real problem , is in the manner its trained...no sparring...non- traditional martial arts aim to rid themselves of the mystic non-sense and get to the point, to train in a manner that resembles actual fighting , so in need of skills to fight they have been developing them, not throwing punches at the air for 5 years, while these have their uses, it is crippling to " real fight" if the practioner doesnt get the hidden messege of the practice and spend his time also sparring.


    While we cant predict the unpredictable, if i had to put money on someone, id put my money on a fighter who has been trainning for less time but has sparred regularly , over a guy who has been kicking the air for 15 years with no sparring, if were not being hit while preforming our techs ,we really just dont know! Nothing could replace experiance.

    Im sorry Bob, i got off topic, Traditional arts train patterns, non traditional arts fight.

    Once again , no disrespect intended tord anyones arts or abilities, just my black and white take on it,maybe it will like Bob said bring up some good debate, in a respetfull manner hahaha
    Sorry but I would change the title of your definition from Traditional Martial Arts to Crappy Traditional Martial Arts School. "Dead patterns" are a part of training, not the only training. If you're being taught a form, or a kata and your teacher isn't teaching you, or doesn't know what you're doing in the pattern, then you have a crappy teacher and are in the wrong school. The same goes for only doing techniques in the air. I think your definition would raise the eyebrows of people like Huang, Chen Liang; Pui, Chan; Tat, Mau Wong just to name a few. Traditional arts may teach numerous moves when only one is required but what if that one doesn't do it's job? I would also say that knowing how to respond with a flurry of EFFECTIVE moves is also pushing it from the realm of just learning how to fight into the art aspect of martial arts.

    TMA is not for everyone, especially in our instant gratification "what's in it for me right now" society but properly taught, it can be extremely effective. I know very skilled TMA practioners that I would not want to be on the bad side of, who would not be too concerned about what "modern" martial art their opponent may know.

    I would also ask what your exposure has been to TMA?

    No disrespect meant here, either, btw.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    San Diego area
    Posts
    1,024
    Thanks
    876
    Thanked 501 Times in 283 Posts

    Default Re: What defines "Traditional"?

    Wow, the taijutsu guy is pretty harsh. The martial art I study is traditional in a sense that we have forms/kata's but it came from the streets of Hawaii back when you fought to live, not to get sponsored by an energy drink or buy a Hummer.

    You do not see any value in these "patterns"? Do you do squats or leg-lifts to strengthen your legs? Well, these patterns and stances build strength and stability in ones base. It is also worth mentioning that we train for a street fight not for a "match" against someone who weighs the same, has the same reach, and who has studied films of us.

    I am as cynical about your "live MMA" style stuff as you are with traditional schools.

    It is also worth mentioning that traditional schools typically spend time on building character, respect, and humility. Traits often missing in the MMA styles (IMHO)
    The above is just my opinion.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Dianhsuhe For This Useful Post:

    jdinca (05-15-2007)

  8. #6
    Bob Hubbard's Avatar
    Bob Hubbard is offline Retired


    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Buffalo, New York, United States
    Posts
    5,610
    Thanks
    1,012
    Thanked 2,161 Times in 1,157 Posts

    Default Re: What defines "Traditional"?

    Here is a side question: How long before "Modern" turns into "Traditional"


    One case in point. In another argument, I've been told that it is 'traditional' to seek promotion from a panel of your peers, ala a "soke board". But the oldest US Soke board is only 14 years old. I have a problem seeing something younger than my son as fitting "traditional" definitions. Never mind the controversy over the whole "soke" title. (That's another discussion btw please)

    Now, some of the systems we think of as traditional, and that unshackled-chi defined as a blind regurgitation of patterns without understanding, started somewhere.

    Somewhere where some guys basically pounded through techniques until they found the ones that worked for them....much as many modern MMA schools try to do. Will guy like the Gracies be looked down upon in 100 years as being 'old fashioned traditional arts' when the new crowd of 'mix and match and see what works' seeks to define their own mark on the martial world?

    I do agree that without understanding the patterns that they lose effectiveness. But is that lack of understanding the fault of the art....or the person training?

    Or teaching? I've encountered 'teach by rote' instructors who didn't understand the why of what they teach.


    Of course, that's tangenting a bit I think.

    Traditional arts have patterns and forms.
    But, so do modern arts. I've seen enough grappling, catch-wrestling, and BJ to see they too have patterns and forms. They are just much shorter, and less 'refined'. String together 10 or so of those techniques though, and suddenly, you have a 'form'...just like in a traditional art.

    Interesting, ne?
    For ANY and ALL KenpoTalk issues, please use theContact Us link here or at page bottom right. Do NOT PM me for site support.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Bob Hubbard For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (07-16-2007)

  10. #7
    unshackled-chi is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    california
    Posts
    385
    Thanks
    286
    Thanked 183 Times in 115 Posts

    Default Re: What defines "Traditional"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianhsuhe View Post
    Wow, the taijutsu guy is pretty harsh. The martial art I study is traditional in a sense that we have forms/kata's but it came from the streets of Hawaii back when you fought to live, not to get sponsored by an energy drink or buy a Hummer.

    You do not see any value in these "patterns"? Do you do squats or leg-lifts to strengthen your legs? Well, these patterns and stances build strength and stability in ones base. It is also worth mentioning that we train for a street fight not for a "match" against someone who weighs the same, has the same reach, and who has studied films of us.

    I am as cynical about your "live MMA" style stuff as you are with traditional schools.

    It is also worth mentioning that traditional schools typically spend time on building character, respect, and humility. Traits often missing in the MMA styles (IMHO)
    LOL, fair enough, i hear where you are coming from mate, and that is one thing that i have strived to never aquire is the typical mma attitude. For starters i dont do bjj, i chose taijitsu for the simple reason of the grappling from this system offers more of a "stand up" grapple if you will, not so commited to the ground,i dont get involved with any of the forms/ punching from this art, i am lucky in the fact that my instructor allows me just to hook up with the class for grappling and mat work, for my stand up game i actually train with a few close friends in Paul vunak's streamlined jeet kune do, i also am working through the Kartate connection's kenpo dvds and love it, I really try to not limit myself as to a set pattern of any art , but take and blend what is usefull to me, what i feel i can actually pull off for my size and what is best for my range.

    I once again do honestly mean no direspect to anyone and honestly hope i do not come across bullshido lol, i hate that mentality, but truth is still truth.

    The problem in my opinion lays at the feet of the trainning patterns, i did traditional martial arts in Goju ryu and to be honest learned more in 1 hour of my trainning now then i did in my years spent in kicking the air, it truly makes a difference in your checklist of tactics, of what can be pulled of when you are sparring and actually being knocked around.

    Yes sir, i do see value in kata, as long as the instructor is not making the claims that "this is the key to the mint" yes it does build strenght in the legs and i would be a fool to deny that, even more deeply i think it creates a mind for war, but fights dont move like this, they never have and never will, i dont want an energy drink lol and i could more than likely never afford a hummer lol, but i have seen a fight a two and spar daily.

    The great treasure that traditional arts have to offer is like mentioned, respect, honor, values etc.., but being honest with ourselves we are not a church, we are not a philosophy we are not the sages of old, we are to be fighters and if you never train to fight , we will be lacking when the situation is before us, if we do not train with resistence and pressure and spend time punching a live moving target that hits back, i honestly feel we are decieving ourselves.

    I am no-one and make no claims to be more than a seeker, i would be the first to say dont follow me..im making it up as i go!

    But the question still remains, what is traditional martial arts ? what is modern martial arts ?

    I dont believe in the mentality that says the ufc is the awnser, i actually think this is false, the ring is not the street as you are well aware of, but what makes mma fighters so effective is their trainning, and this my friend is where i see the key, lets take all the wonderfull values of "traditional arts, all the respect , all the kindness without the attitude and grow and train to the same level of reality and prove our worth, lets not fall prey to the endless remarks of its a dead pattern, lets raise the bar and show the full strenght in humility and tradition and the arts that you and i both love.
    "Mighty power like steel is our Kata and heritage which require a long time of practice and training. It is what men are seeking, just only for their self-respect and self-defense."
    MASTER MEITOKU YAGI

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to unshackled-chi For This Useful Post:

    Dianhsuhe (05-15-2007)

  12. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    San Diego area
    Posts
    1,024
    Thanks
    876
    Thanked 501 Times in 283 Posts

    Default Re: What defines "Traditional"?

    I am at work so I will need to revisit this later when time permits-

    I apologize for my post being so "sarcastic and cynical", I re-read it just now and I am not real happy with it but I do not edit content of my posts after they are published-

    Your post above is VERY well put...Although I believe martial arts IS a philosophy, so you are not speaking for me when you say it is not a philosophy.

    You train in Taijutsu and Paul Vunak's system? That sounds like an awesome combo.

    More to follow...
    The above is just my opinion.

  13. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    My own private Idaho
    Posts
    5,299
    Thanks
    4,907
    Thanked 3,587 Times in 2,193 Posts

    Default Re: What defines "Traditional"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hubbard View Post
    Here is a side question: How long before "Modern" turns into "Traditional"


    One case in point. In another argument, I've been told that it is 'traditional' to seek promotion from a panel of your peers, ala a "soke board". But the oldest US Soke board is only 14 years old. I have a problem seeing something younger than my son as fitting "traditional" definitions. Never mind the controversy over the whole "soke" title. (That's another discussion btw please)

    Now, some of the systems we think of as traditional, and that unshackled-chi defined as a blind regurgitation of patterns without understanding, started somewhere.

    Somewhere where some guys basically pounded through techniques until they found the ones that worked for them....much as many modern MMA schools try to do. Will guy like the Gracies be looked down upon in 100 years as being 'old fashioned traditional arts' when the new crowd of 'mix and match and see what works' seeks to define their own mark on the martial world?

    I do agree that without understanding the patterns that they lose effectiveness. But is that lack of understanding the fault of the art....or the person training?

    Or teaching? I've encountered 'teach by rote' instructors who didn't understand the why of what they teach.


    Of course, that's tangenting a bit I think.

    Traditional arts have patterns and forms.
    But, so do modern arts. I've seen enough grappling, catch-wrestling, and BJ to see they too have patterns and forms. They are just much shorter, and less 'refined'. String together 10 or so of those techniques though, and suddenly, you have a 'form'...just like in a traditional art.

    Interesting, ne?
    Therein lays a very broad question. My vague answer would be the amount of time the system has been in place without significant changes. How long that time is is open to suggestion and general acceptance. I think we're at the point you could call boxing a "Traditional" fighting form.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to jdinca For This Useful Post:

    MARSHALLS KENPO (07-18-2007)

  15. #10
    sifuroy is offline In Memory of our Departed Friend
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,027
    Thanks
    958
    Thanked 444 Times in 304 Posts

    Default Re: What defines "Traditional"?

    Remember this about Tradition.

    "Tradition has much to teach us,However it must serve our need and not become our Master. Martial Arts is an ever growing form. There will always be room for Improvement".

    I think this pretty well says it.

    I am Most Respectfully,
    Sfuroy

  16. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: What defines "Traditional"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hubbard View Post
    What is a "Traditional" art?
    The way I've seen the word "traditional" used lately is as a "put down".

    "Well...they are traditional...and if you want to be traditional..."

    DOC

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)