Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    > Hi Doc John,
    >
    > I replied off list because you can choose to post an
    > edited version if you want.
    > I have found a kempo school, run by a 3rd black
    > belt, trained by someone named Grandmaster xxxx xxxxx, 8th Dan Ryukyu Kempo
    > & Isshinryu Karate, > (lots of joint locks and grappling). He was claiming credibility >by association because "many" law enforcement people study from him. That doesn't >carry as much weight as he hoped after your stories and opinion of some police
    > officers and criminals.

    Hi Group,
    The following is a private post where the writer gave me permission to repost it if I chose to.

    I personally believe it is a very good post to have a thread on.
    Here’s my reply to him.

    “If you are NOT a cop, I suggest you DON'T train with someone that is proud of their cop trainings more than they are of their Kenpo Karate trainings.”

    Here’s the primary reason why I say that.

    You don't get to carry a badge, wear a uniform, carry a gun, have a legal Tazer, nor a legal carry baton, nor is a backup required. All of those extra items give you an unfair advantage to install fear into the perp so that your martial arts can more exactly fit the departmental standards.
    A police officer’s defensive tactics training takes into account all of that, plus they are taught many ways to de-escalate the pending violence.
    You HAVE, as a police office actual legal standards of “when”, “how specifically”, and for “what situations” you can use force, what you can do to “de-escalate” force (i.e., The Verbal Judo Tactics of George J. Thompson, Ph.D., who created and crash tested verbal judo when he was a police officer on an urban beat.), and what you can use in case of “deadly force” .

    Each individual department gives you training of your legal parameters, and makes sure that you have the training and know-how to adhere to those standards.

    You need different training than the above since you don’t have those trainings, or the equipment, nor have you been trained in their rules of engagement..

    ©Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Ps. #1. MANY people have taught a police officer in their Kenpo karate class. That does NOT mean that they know how to train officers for their job. It just means they’ve taught a cop or two. For their job, cops need different training. NOTE: I did NOT say it was better or worse!

    Ps. #2. 57 years in the arts teaching cops as martial arts expert and NOT as a police office. 37 years in Kenpo Karate. What we teach to civilians is NOT what we teach to law enforcement people. What we teach to a “contract specialist” (like I taught Michael Echanis 1975-1977) is NOT what we teach to a civilian or to a law enforcement official.

    Ps #3. Police reserve officer (Official Oath signed 1979), Deputy Sheriff Reserve officer (under Sheriff Stan Jensen 79-81), Lieutenant (Res) Boise county Sheriff’s Dept. (under Sheriff Lynn Bowerman 81-83), Member Society of Law Enforcement Trainers, 12/31/90 (LET # 0429), Member Idaho Peace Officers Association (9/1/82, # 04996), Justice System Training Association, 1982-1989 (SD # 453). Enough for now.

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to John M. La Tourrette For This Useful Post:

    Kosho Gakkusei (03-27-2007),Martin Seck (03-27-2007),thedan (03-27-2007),tylerjade (04-02-2007)

  3. #2
    mike2011 is offline
    KenpoTalk
    White Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Ga
    Posts
    17
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts

    Default Re: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    I have to agree with you, sir. One of the biggest difference in law enforcement training vs. martial arts is the end goal. As martial artists, we are, or should aim to be, warriors. If confronted with a situation that demands a physical response, our one gaol is to survive the encounter. How we do this is based on both our training and our own moral code. A police officer's goal is to control a subject or "perp" not defeat him. physical force is used only to affect an arrest.Lethal force is used as a last resort. Many officers are taught to handcuff subjects they've shot, basically "arresting" them for the offense that led to them being shot.
    The biggest technical difference in the type of training is the complexicity of the techniques taught. At the end of the day, cops are just people. They come in all shapes, sizes, learning abilities and work ethics. The D.T. (defensive tactics) taught to l.e.o.'s (law enforcement officers) must pass a the prong test:
    1) The technique must be easy to teach- training time is severly limited
    2) The technique must work for the majority of people the majority of the time, regardless of the opponent's size or strength
    3) It must be easy to remember and perform under stress
    Of course there are other considerations such as the amount of force used, the possibility of death or injury, various factors of civil liability and so on. In a nut shell I think it is safe to say that a Kenpo black belt is much more highly trained than the average police officer with no outside martial arts training.

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to mike2011 For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (03-26-2007),Kosho Gakkusei (03-27-2007)

  5. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    >They come in all shapes, sizes, learning abilities and work ethics. The D.T. >(defensive tactics) taught to l.e.o.'s (law enforcement officers) must pass a the >prong test:
    >1) The technique must be easy to teach- training time is severly limited
    >2) The technique must work for the majority of people the majority of the time, >regardless of the opponent's size or strength
    >3) It must be easy to remember and perform under stress
    >Of course there are other considerations such as the amount of force used, the >possibility of death or injury, various factors of civil liability and so on. In a nut >shell I think it is safe to say that a Kenpo black belt is much more highly trained >than the average police officer with no outside martial arts training.

    Thank you Mike,

    I remember when I was with Boise City PD and taking their defensive tactics. The instructor hated having me in that class. He had no rank, and I’d had 29 years of experience and he was the guru and I was the goat. I could easily watch what he did and do it better than he could almost instantly.

    At that time that PD was into Aikido moves for their defensive tactics (restraining the perp), deeming Karate too violent to be used on the job.

    He had about 12 moves and he knew them real well.

    Then two deputy sheriffs’s visited me (1978), Dave Kuwahara and Paul Carrera. They both wanted more than what their departments required for OJT, so they went outside of their departments for additional training.

    As far as competency level goes, I’m pretty sure that a good purple belt has more learned skills than most law officers.

    The few black belts I know that are also into law enforcement were martial art athletes FIRST, and went into law enforcement second.

    That does show a particular personality trait.

    Thanks again Mike for your very knowledgeable post.

    What experiences have other black belt trainers had with law enforcement people as students of Kenpo Karate?

    ©Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to John M. La Tourrette For This Useful Post:

    sifuroy (03-27-2007)

  7. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    1,383
    Thanks
    1,964
    Thanked 473 Times in 341 Posts

    Default Re: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    Great subject!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Michael Huffman
    1st Black, AKKI
    www.akki.com

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Mikael151 For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (03-26-2007)

  9. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    Yep.
    I think so too.
    Too bad we don't have Massad Ayoob here;-)
    He's very good on this topic.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  10. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Too bad we don't have Massad Ayoob here;-) He's very good on this topic.
    He's very good, period. I take it you've worked with him? Never had the honor, myself.

    I was the dummy for my brother when he went throught he acadamy, and they did have some effective moves. However, when things got bad, it was his Kenpo training that saved his scrawny backside on a couple of memorable occasions.

    “If you are NOT a cop, I suggest you DON'T train with someone that is proud of their cop trainings more than they are of their Kenpo Karate trainings.”
    I agree with that as it is written, sir. But I do think that it is good to train with cops who want to honestly share experience. One, they need to train with different opponents as much (probably more) as we do. And there is a lot of experience and training that is not available to us anywhere else.

    If you want to know what kinds of attacks are prevalent, and how they are typically launched, and in what kinds of situations, train with cops. They have seen it, interviewed victims, and watched reels of training films. 'Course, you may just find out you were too proud of your own training as well. It was a cop who showed me the base move for my default pistol disarm- which is nothing like Kenpo.

    Some of us used to set up combat firearms courses, scearios, and problems (like clearing a structure or night ops). I also have volunteered to be a "Bad Guy" for dog handlers. Unbievable how much cross over skills there are there. Just a lot of stuff the average person would not normally have access to.

    Just my thoughts and (relatively few) experiences.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to thedan For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (03-28-2007)

  12. #7
    ronin6's Avatar
    ronin6 is offline
    KenpoTalk
    3rd. Brown Belt
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Oxford, Massachusetts, United States
    Posts
    723
    Thanks
    29
    Thanked 46 Times in 44 Posts

    Default Re: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    [quote=At that time that PD was into Aikido moves for their defensive tactics (restraining the perp), deeming Karate too violent to be used on the job.

    He had about 12 moves and he knew them real well.[/quote]

    John,

    As a long time Aikidoka and instructor I saw numerous police officers come into our dojo. They seemed more afraid of going to court and thought that Aikido was just a few small joint manipulations. When I would explain to them that the techniques could seriously injure a person they just could not see it. When we would show the techniques they would soon feel the pain involved and the fact that many of the Aikido techniques blend into Aiki-Jitsu techniques quickly. I had to constantly remind them that Aikido is really Aiki-Jitsu. The main difference was in the mental application of the techniques. A simple Ikkyo technique could morph to a dislocation in a heart beat.

    I always enjoyed working with the officers. I always found it a great way to find out new ways to apply techniques. Since many of them had been involved in melee situations they always had great what if questions.

    Regards

    Chris
    "Fear is the true opiate of combat."

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to ronin6 For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (03-28-2007)

  14. #8
    Kosho Gakkusei is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    156
    Thanks
    27
    Thanked 32 Times in 21 Posts

    Default Re: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    What a great subject! I never really thought about it like this. The views here really answer the trend for "reality based martial arts." It always bothered me because the simplification and dumbing down of an art and trying to create a one size fits all martial art removes the unique signatures and really removes the art and leaves just with the martial. I mean if that's all there is why study every day for the rest of your life?

    I really appreciate the insight and experience that's being presented here.

    _don flatt

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Kosho Gakkusei For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (03-28-2007)

  16. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,361
    Thanks
    841
    Thanked 480 Times in 291 Posts

    Default Re: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    Calling Doc Chapel.

    I would really be interested in his take on the subject as has been in law enforcement for many, many years.

    Interesting read thanks for the thread.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Martin Seck For This Useful Post:

    Carol (03-27-2007)

  18. #10
    sifuroy is offline In Memory of our Departed Friend
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,027
    Thanks
    958
    Thanked 444 Times in 304 Posts

    Default Re: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    We have had several Police officers in our class. The majority of their training had consisted of a couple of six hour courses at the police academy.
    The Black Belt person training from out school had far more experience than the instructor. Most Police candidates simply don't get enough instruction to cover even basic situations like knife dis arms and such. I think there is more of a tendacy for them to use a weapon to cover most situations.

    I think a lot of the Things that Dr. LaTourrette spoke of also apply. There are a lot of legal considerations to consider.

    I am most Respectfully,
    Sifuroy

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to sifuroy For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (03-28-2007)

  20. #11
    Carol's Avatar
    Carol is offline Deo duce, ferro comitante
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nashua, NH
    Posts
    2,007
    Thanks
    1,141
    Thanked 976 Times in 569 Posts

    Default Re: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    There are other considerations too. Some civilians can (and do) carry weapons, including guns, knives, and batons. Also there are many self defense strikes taught such as groin kicks, eye gouges, and temple strikes, that cops generally can't perform against a civilian.

  21. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    Law enforcement training has similar drawbacks to sport training.... there are rules involved in how you may handle an opponenet. In Law enforcement it can be worse though, because your oppoent is not bound by the same rules as with sport martial arts! DOH! Personally, I think that sucks and is a bunch of hooey...but I don't write legislation so...

    Civilians aren't bound by any rules in a confrontation other than the rule of self-preservation. That opens up a lot of options not always available to Law Enforcement.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

  22. The Following User Says Thank You to Celtic_Crippler For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (03-28-2007)

  23. #13
    Jim Hanna is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Purple Belt
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    226
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 179 Times in 95 Posts

    Default Re: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    As far as police officer training in the academy I can say that it has been modified for the worse in PA. When I first attended the police academy in 1976 the DT program was basically based on jiu jitsu. We did falls, some ground work (like the elevator hip thrust for a mount) and we did alot of running. We learned some holds that I have used many times, e.g the goose neck wrist lock (now called the escort hold so that it sounds better in court and on reports).

    The police academies in PA are now oftentimes run by civilians. Cadets are expected to get their DT training from the department that hires them. Because physical agility tests must be gender neutral, tests like sprints, push ups, pull ups, broad jumps, etc have been replaced with other "tests". The results, in my opinion, are that many people get into police work that really do not belong there, at least on the streets.

    I have found that officers that played football, wrestled, or participated in some sort of contact sport, are much more agreeable to grabbing someone that needs grabbed, etc. They also tend to stay in condition.

    The badge and uniform does offer some protection. However, officers must put themselves into position and into ranges that any average kenpo trained person would balk at, i.e. either hit them or move out of range. Officers, if they do their jobs, don't have that ability.

    Jim

  24. The Following User Says Thank You to Jim Hanna For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (03-28-2007)

  25. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    >I have found that officers that played football, wrestled, or participated in some >sort of contact sport, are much more agreeable to grabbing someone that needs >grabbed, etc. They also tend to stay in condition.

    Yep.
    And that type of hands on skill and muscle is necessary for police work.

    Running the mile is NOT necessary for police work. Running the 50 yard dash IS necessary for police work.

    Being able to hit someone 11-18 times in one second is NOT necessary for police work.

    Being able to life weights is really helpful for police work.

    >The badge and uniform does offer some protection. However, officers must put >themselves into position and into ranges that any average Kenpo trained person >would balk at, i.e. either hit them or move out of range. Officers, if they do their >jobs, don't have that ability.

    Very good.

    Thank you.

    Most perps will NOT fight a cop, even if a cop is totally out-of-line and violating the laws he is supposedly enforcing.

    Only drunks, very angry people and very stupid people will face off with a cop, EVEN IF the cop is 100% in the wrong.

    Some very angry people (and very smart people) will find out where a pushy cop lives (easy to do on the internet by looking at who owns real-estate in that town) and then take revenge after the fact, knowing that the chances of them being caught is nil.

    Which is totally a different topic and doesn’t have “merit” on this forum.

    ©Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  26. The Following User Says Thank You to John M. La Tourrette For This Useful Post:

    tylerjade (04-02-2007)

  27. #15
    Kenpo-Owl is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Kansas City area
    Posts
    116
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 75 Times in 49 Posts

    Default Re: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    This is an interesting thread. I've often thought about the differences in mindset, attitude, and ability between a police officer, a civilian, and a soldier. I am ex-Army enlisted. A good friend of mine from my time in the military left the service and became a police officer in a major city. Interestingly enough, he was also a black belt in two arts.

    I've thought about his choice over the years, and I have to give him tremendous credit for being able to change his mindset so greatly. An officer IS extremely limited in what they're able to do. Their job is to restrain only...deadly force is a complete and total last resort.

    A soldier lives a completely different way. A soldier who's trained for combat, and more importantly a soldier who's BEEN in combat has an opposite mindset. In combat, in a dangerous situation, deadly force is often your FIRST response. And changing from that mindset is often a hard thing for a soldier to do when he comes back to a civilian environment. To go even further, to go to a situation where you're required to forgoe deadly force nearly up to the point where you face potentially serious harm is impressive.

    From my perspective, hats off to all the men and women of law enforcement for taking that on. I could never make a good officer...my first response is likely to be to remove the threat with whatever force was immediately available.

    But all of this is partially WHY their training often tends to be so limited. Someone once told me "You don't give a child a toy, and tell them not to play with it." If most officers WERE trained to the level of a black belt, there probably would be a lot more incidences of excessive force being used. Someone who goes into law enforcement with that knowledge already has more than likely already learned that restraint. Or an officer who takes the personal time and dedication to learn to that level will likely learn it along the way. But if they're taught lethal responses during a 3 day seminar...that is likely going to be another story.

  28. The Following User Says Thank You to Kenpo-Owl For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (03-29-2007)

  29. #16
    Hunter's Avatar
    Hunter is offline
    KenpoTalk
    3rd. Brown Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wichita KS
    Posts
    709
    Thanks
    225
    Thanked 183 Times in 112 Posts

    Default Re: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Law enforcement training has similar drawbacks to sport training.... there are rules involved in how you may handle an opponenet. In Law enforcement it can be worse though, because your oppoent is not bound by the same rules as with sport martial arts! DOH! Personally, I think that sucks and is a bunch of hooey...but I don't write legislation so...

    Civilians aren't bound by any rules in a confrontation other than the rule of self-preservation. That opens up a lot of options not always available to Law Enforcement.
    I agree with you on the first point, but disagree on the second..if you look most civilians are able to use a "reasonable" amount of force to stop the attacks or aggression. If someone pushes you and you perform lone kimono followed by jumping into leap of death when they are on the ground in pain you are going to jail as well.

    This is an interesting discussion. I see both sides, both as a kenpo black belt and what is going on my 9th year in law enforcement. (Not counting time as a military police officer)

    I have worked as a patrol officer, narcotics officer, and a detective. I have seen my training goals change as my assignments changed. Basic rules of motion and sound principles apply to it, just as they do in kenpo.

    Training police officers depends on their goals. Are they life long martial artist? (Like many of us are) Are they wanting to simply increase survivability? Are they wanting to understand what would happen if confronted by a martial artist? All of these things should be considered when it comes to training a police officer.

    I hope this helps some.
    www.hunterskarate.com

    "I believe that to have a friend, a man must be one."

    - From the Lone Ranger's Creed




  30. The Following User Says Thank You to Hunter For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (03-29-2007)

  31. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Is cop training different than Civilian training? If so, why & How?

    >Civilians aren't bound by any rules in a confrontation other than the rule of self->preservation.

    Hi Celtic,

    I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean what you just said.

    Or, if you did mean it you better hope for no witnesses, and that he doesn’t survive.

    And I do agree that we have all felt very justified for some of our past violent behaviors when younger, that once we get a bit of societies revenge, we now know differently.

    ©Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  32. The Following User Says Thank You to John M. La Tourrette For This Useful Post:

    tylerjade (04-02-2007)

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. How "Real" is Your Training?
    By Celtic_Crippler in forum KenpoTalk E-Zine Articles
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 03-12-2008, 11:57 AM
  2. Article
    By Doc in forum Parkers Kenpo (EPAK) - General
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 04-11-2007, 11:32 PM
  3. Ninja Training By James Peterson
    By MT Post Bot in forum KenpoTalk E-Zine Articles
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-14-2007, 01:50 AM
  4. Training for the Fight by Antonio Graceffo
    By MT Post Bot in forum KenpoTalk E-Zine Articles
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-14-2007, 01:50 AM
  5. Terminology
    By Rob Broad in forum Terminology
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-16-2007, 03:46 PM