Breaking a man's spirit

[nelson]

Dear Kenpo brothers and isiters:

While reading the "Tao of JKD" by BL I ran across this quote.

""our sense of power is more vivid when we break a man's spirit than when we win his heart.....when we break a proud spirit, we achieve something that is final and absolute."

Do you all believe this is true. Once a man's spirit is broken is it gone for good.

I'm sure we have a fair number of boxing fans here on this forum. Have you ever seen a fighter loose so badly he never fights again regarless of the healing of whatever injuries he may have?

My own personal experience in this matter relates to the time that I got my butt kicked in one of my first full contact matches. I also found out that someone could take the hardest punch I could dish out and keep on coming. I was "gunshy" for weeks and my opponent didn't show up for class in a while. I guess he was gunshy also. I don't believe that my spirit was broken by the experience but I definetly had a badly bruised ego as well as a few lumps on the head.

What do you all think about BL's comments?

Nelson

[RamsHead]

I have had my spirit fractured a few times and te recovery time is long. I would think if you break a mans spirt that when it comes to the dynamic of your relationship with the broken one, he wll at the least be easily broken, but in this day and age there are many routes to false spiritedness such as drugs, guns and so forth leading to occurances where breaking a mans spirit can lead to the ulitmate distruction of the man.

[thedan]

While reading the "Tao of JKD" by BL I ran across this quote. "our sense of power is more vivid when we break a man's spirit than when we win his heart.....when we break a proud spirit, we achieve something that is final and absolute."

Do you all believe this is true. Once a man's spirit is broken is it gone for good.

In the larger sense, yes, you can break a mans' spirit for good- sometimes with a severe beatdown. Why would you want to? Your pride in this "accomplishment" would only set you up for the same fate.

I"d have to see the comment by Bruce Lee in context before comenting on its' meaning, however. In the martial sense, taking a mans' spirit means temporarily taking his will to fight. If you can do this before it gets too physical, you both come out better. If it does get rough, you want to establish dominance quickly. Occupy his space, unballance him, hurt him, control him, or just overwhelm him. Then buy him a beer. Your sense of power may be less, but true power is not having to leave the bar for fear he'll come back with friends or weapons.

Dan C

[amylong]

I'd have to see it in context too. I would rather win a friend who will have my back, then break someone's spirit and have to worry about whether they'll try to put a knife in it.

Breaking someone is not the kind of power I'd ever want.

(Although my husband says I broke his spirit -- bah. He's just house-broken.)

--Amy

[Texas Kenpo]

(Although my husband says I broke his spirit -- bah. He's just house-broken.)
--Amy

Ouch - LOL - good one

[nelson]

Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

If you are interested in seeing BL's comments in context check out the "Tao of Jkd" and look in the last chapter. I personally feel that BL was a much better fighter than a philosopher but I do see his point.

I believe that BL was speaking of a true combat situation afterwhich the odds of singing "Kumbaya" with your former opponent are slim to none.
I do believe that breaking a man's or woman's spirit is different from humiliation however. A truly broken spirit will not "put a knife in your back" while a humiliated and disgraced one might just do that. When I was a bouncer and found it neccesary to put down a trouble maker I was taught always to allow the person to save face for this very reason.

There is a prison term that I'd like to share with you all that some of the corrections people are well aware of, it's called "Stealing a man's ----". This comes about when you aggressively confront an opponent who is not yet ready to confront you. When I worked the bars I would see someone getting themselves worked up. The time to step in was before the blow up. I found that if I came out of nowhere and got in their faces I could surprise them and get them out the door before they caused any trouble.
You bouncers will know what I mean but if your training comes from a dojo you will not know what I'm talking about. This concept is SIMILIAR to what I believe that BL was talking about.

Have you ever witnessed a student that got their butt kicked so bad in the dojo that they never came back? This also may be the result of a broken spirit.

Nelson

[jfarnsworth]

(Although my husband says I broke his spirit -- bah. He's just house-broken.)

Yikes! Does that mean you all have conquered the whole, Leave the toilet seat up or down debate?

[amylong]

Yikes! Does that mean you all have conquered the whole, Leave the toilet seat up or down debate?

Yes, except when he's mad at me and then he doesn't care if I (actually hopes that I do) fall in. lol.

It's not really a debate. I win.

--Amy

[jdinca]

Yeah, I do think it's possible to break a man's spirit so much that he never recovers. In that context, one would have to wonder about the individual's constitution prior to that though.

A broken spirit can be healed but it's a long process and it will never be the same as it once was. That can be good and that can be bad, depending on the path taken to heal the spirit. Been there, done that both ways.

[Dr. Dave in da house]

In an unecessary rage, I've been the breaker. I think it takes a certain mindset to be OK with being the sort of person who collapses another mans will so brutally, that they leave town and never return. I'm not OK with being that person. And yes, it's more effective long-term than just putting the beatdown on him.

As a kid, I had the experience of being on the recieving end of the break; I've never put myself in that situation again. But, interestingly, I keep an eye opened for the bastard who broke it, and I do plan on returning the pain of brutality and humiliation the next time I see him, even if it's 90-years old in Liesure World. So I'm not convinced that broken spirits don't come back to haunt you.

D.

[nelson]

Dear Dr. Dave:

I don't whether broken spirits "haunt" or not. My friend and sensei told me about a yonu man who he had been in prison with who was not interested in training in self defense but wanted some "tummy trimming" tips. My friend was going to meet iwth him the next day. That night he was put in a cell with a mixed race group of gangbangers. They took turns on the kid and he hung himself when he got the chance. The kid was in prison for draft evasion. Instead of taking the cowards way out and fleeing to Canada when he was turned down for his CO status he went to prison.
When my Sensei told me the story he had tears in his eyes. He believed that the kid had killed himself because he didn't fight back like he should.
I'm not so convinced that the shame and humiliation alone brought him to take his life.

When I think of broken spirit I think of that kid I never knew. I'm not so sure your incident fits in the same category.

Nelson

[Dr. Dave in da house]

Dear Dr. Dave:

When I think of broken spirit I think of that kid I never knew. I'm not so sure your incident fits in the same category.

Nelson

That extreme, certainly not. But I also would doubt that it's the extreme BL was talking about. He actually WAS a philosopher, having attended Washington State for a philo major. He also lived with other MA pseudo-philosophers, having the time and opportunity to discuss ideas with them. Among them was Wally Jay, and ardent pacifist,despite his ability to ruin your day.

I hardly think Lee was espousing gang-rape or beatings as a means of breaking spirit.

I can only conject, but this may be an example. A buddy of mine from Gracie days was the head bouncer at a nudie bar. Harley biker, chaps and all, come in and starts crap. An assistant bouncer with maybe 5 sessions on the mat places him in a choke,and he drifts out. Bouncer lets go to celebrate,and he wakes right back up and pulls a knife. My buddy goes at him, disarms him,and places him back in choke, but holds it for a slow 10 count, AFTER the guy goes soft from passing out. He gets dumped in the bushes outside the bar, where there is some concern that he may not wake up. He eventually does, but is so disturbed by his near-death experience, that he lays in the shrubs for about an hour before getting up and leaving, looking pensive the whole time.

He could have gotten a gun, and come back to shoot the place up; I've had that happen as a bouncer too. But he didn't...the long nap and helplessness freaked him out. Broke his spirit, and he never returned. Without Lee here to ask, I can only guess that it was this sort of dominance over an opponent that he was referring to.

D.

[nelson]

Dear Dr. Dave:

I don't know what BL had in mind either. I do enjoy reading the perspective of others and I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

I appreciated your story about the NDE as well.

No disrespect to Bruce but I still think his philosophy is weak despite his formal training. His fighting prowess is a horse of a different color of course!

Do you believe that BL was as good of a teacher as he was a fighter?

It seems that JKD has went by the wayside years ago and no longer is considered a prominent fighting art or have I missed something? Could it be the lack of a succesor has hurt JKD lin much the same fashion as it has split Kenpo after the death of Ed PArker?

Nelson

[karatedude]

you are only defeated if you get knocked down and stay down, you have to get up and try again, your spirit can only be broken if you let it

[Martin Seck]

He may be speaking of "in battle" or war.

You catch more flys with honey than vinegar.

[John M. La Tourrette]

>I don't whether broken spirits "haunt" or not. My friend and sensei told me about a yonu man who he had been in >prison with who was not interested in training in self defense but wanted some "tummy trimming" tips. My friend >was going to meet iwth him the next day. That night he was put in a cell with a mixed race group of gangbangers. >They took turns on the kid and he hung himself when he got the chance. The kid was in prison for draft evasion. >Instead of taking the cowards way out and fleeing to Canada when he was turned down for his CO status he went >to prison.

You are getting into the different personality profiles here.

Usually someone that refuses to go into the service and would rather go to jail instead is an Earth Element (Traditional Chinese Medicine personality profiling system).

So, on his part it was a moral obligation to NOT go into the service.

>When my Sensei told me the story he had tears in his eyes. He believed that the kid had killed himself because he >didn't fight back like he should. I'm not so convinced that the shame and humiliation alone brought him to take his >life.

Nope.

SITUATION #1.
In situations like that, it is the KNOWLEDGE that the future would bring the SAME ugly situation, again and again and again, and there was virtually nothing he (in his own mind) could do about it.

He wasn’t a fighter so he could NOT fight the situation. He also could NOT face that situation. So his only choice was “away-from”.

That negative future pacing brought on the suicide, which is a totally different topic than what Nelson brought up.

In fact, he had to have a certain type of MORAL COURAGE to be able to do what he did. According to his values, being treated like that was worse than dying.

SITUATION #2.
In the BL situation, those examples in that book, were put together by someone BESIDES BL, from notes of what he’d read, that he thought were important. He did NOT write that book!

And, “breaking” an individual can be done easily “if” the person being broken is an Earth element, a Fire Element, a Water Element, or a Metal Element.

But, if you attempt to break a Wood element (like Dave), he will wait to get you, even if it takes 90 years.

SITUATION #3.
This is what is called battle fatigue, or Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. Depending upon the personality of the individual, it can be caused by one event, or like in the case of Viet Nam, it could be caused by many firefights where they had no control of the situation.

The good news is, ANY of the three types of situations can be helped with the current knowledge in Energy Psychology, Energy Medicine, and Neuro-linguistic programming.

SITUATION #4.
So, even something as simple as military basic training could and is considered a “breaking technique”. A method of getting the new recruits to stop making decisions for themselves and to have the NCOs and the officers make all decisions for them. They lose their hair, their clothes and all their personal possessions. They are brainwashed into following orders.

Just curious.

How many people here had an article 15 while in the military for whomping the poop out of a squad leader for abusing their personal freedoms?

©Dr. John M. La Tourrette
A Wood/Metal element that loves to give people what they deserve no matter how long it takes.
Ps. I know this one lady that was beat up badly by three other chicks. She took her licking, and they left. She then healed and hunted them down one by one, doing the Ed Parker drill of making the crack of their asses meet the back of their heads. I liked her spirit so much that I married her. It’s been a very interesting 35 years.

[Dr. Dave in da house]

1. But, if you attempt to break a Wood element (like Dave), he will wait to get you, even if it takes 90 years.

2. ...and Neuro-linguistic programming.

3. How many people here had an article 15 while in the military for whomping the poop out of a squad leader for abusing their personal freedoms?

1. Ayup. I'm also a snake...I'l lie in the grass an wait, changing skins as I go, until the right time to strike. I have infinite patience...revenge is a dish best served cold

2. I heard that there NLP stuff was a satanic cult based on pseudo-science...what da hell is dat, and what's a future-pace, anyway?

3. No comment.

D.

[Kosho Gakkusei]

I think what Bruce Lee meant by "breaking a man's spirit" was taking the fight out of someone. Brutally handing someone their rear is usually not the best way to do this.

If it were there would not be so many rematches in the sport fighting world. In the sport fighting world, when guys give everything they got and get no results they will lose heart and give up before the fight's over. For example, a grappler fails to get a takedown after several rounds will lose their fight. On the other hand, a striker that fails to get his feet or land a shot for several rounds ends up allowing a submission to take place or dropping his guard.

In self defense situations- it can take too long for the attacker to realize that he can not win and take the fight out of him. It's better to find a way before things get physical. This can be done by getting the attacker to laugh. Although on the other hand, if someone thinks you're laughing at them the result would be the opposite of taking the fight out of them.

In my neck of the woods there's a local legend about the owner of one of the MA studios. This guy runs in outlaw biker circuits and is a former Navy Seal. The story is that he was at a bar and someone got unruly and started verbally threatening him. He calmly finished his beer, threw the mug up in the air and "powdered" it. Needless to say the big mouth backed down and shut up.

Just my thoughts.
_Don Flatt

[thedan]

How many people here had an article 15 while in the military for whomping the poop out of a squad leader for abusing their personal freedoms?

I'd have to raise my hand for that one. More than once, though I wouldn't say I "beat the poop" out of them. I tried, with some (varrying) degree of success.

I have no problems with authority. But the abuse of authority will set me off every time. Sometimes passive agressivly, others outright down and out agressive- verbal, physical, or just plain stubborn and in your face. A character trait that I (unlike the psychologist they sent me to) do not see as a flaw. However, I don't think I've ever tried to destroy someones' spirit permanently by any means. If I had that power, it would be the ultimate abuse to do that.

""our sense of power is more vivid when we break a man's spirit than when we win his heart.....when we break a proud spirit, we achieve something that is final and absolute."

As has been said, taken out of context, this appears to be different than in the martial sense. Taking his will to fight is necessary. But to permanently break a mans' spirit just to enhance your sense of power would be one of those things that set me against you for eternity. I just don't see this as being what Bruce Lee would have meant.

Dan C

[John M. La Tourrette]

As has been said, taken out of context, this appears to be different than in the martial sense. Taking his will to fight is necessary. But to permanently break a mans' spirit just to enhance your sense of power would be one of those things that set me against you for eternity. I just don't see this as being what Bruce Lee would have meant. Dan C

Actually what Bruce Lee did in his books is talk about several levels of fighting.

And the quote about “breaking a man’s spirit” is a totally different level than a bar fight, a tournament competition, or a fight with your wife.

And I’ve pretty sure that it came from Musashi’s writings, and was put there in Bruce’s writing by the compiler after Bruce’s death.

It’s on the same line as what the North Koreans did to prisoners in the Korean War. They, through use of propaganda, behavioral conditioning, and covert torture, did steal men’s spirits.

And if you look very closely, you can see those exact same tactics being used covertly today.

Oh well.

©Dr. John M. La Tourrette