Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 52

Thread: Breaking a man's spirit

  1. #1
    nelson is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    81
    Thanks
    4,700
    Thanked 2,055 Times in 1,335 Posts

    Default Breaking a man's spirit

    Dear Kenpo brothers and isiters:

    While reading the "Tao of JKD" by BL I ran across this quote.

    ""our sense of power is more vivid when we break a man's spirit than when we win his heart.....when we break a proud spirit, we achieve something that is final and absolute."

    Do you all believe this is true. Once a man's spirit is broken is it gone for good.

    I'm sure we have a fair number of boxing fans here on this forum. Have you ever seen a fighter loose so badly he never fights again regarless of the healing of whatever injuries he may have?

    My own personal experience in this matter relates to the time that I got my butt kicked in one of my first full contact matches. I also found out that someone could take the hardest punch I could dish out and keep on coming. I was "gunshy" for weeks and my opponent didn't show up for class in a while. I guess he was gunshy also. I don't believe that my spirit was broken by the experience but I definetly had a badly bruised ego as well as a few lumps on the head.

    What do you all think about BL's comments?

    Nelson

  2. #2
    RamsHead is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    62
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 34 Times in 18 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    I have had my spirit fractured a few times and te recovery time is long. I would think if you break a mans spirt that when it comes to the dynamic of your relationship with the broken one, he wll at the least be easily broken, but in this day and age there are many routes to false spiritedness such as drugs, guns and so forth leading to occurances where breaking a mans spirit can lead to the ulitmate distruction of the man.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    While reading the "Tao of JKD" by BL I ran across this quote. "our sense of power is more vivid when we break a man's spirit than when we win his heart.....when we break a proud spirit, we achieve something that is final and absolute."

    Do you all believe this is true. Once a man's spirit is broken is it gone for good.
    In the larger sense, yes, you can break a mans' spirit for good- sometimes with a severe beatdown. Why would you want to? Your pride in this "accomplishment" would only set you up for the same fate.

    I"d have to see the comment by Bruce Lee in context before comenting on its' meaning, however. In the martial sense, taking a mans' spirit means temporarily taking his will to fight. If you can do this before it gets too physical, you both come out better. If it does get rough, you want to establish dominance quickly. Occupy his space, unballance him, hurt him, control him, or just overwhelm him. Then buy him a beer. Your sense of power may be less, but true power is not having to leave the bar for fear he'll come back with friends or weapons.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Elk Grove, CA
    Posts
    4,018
    Thanks
    1,163
    Thanked 913 Times in 561 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    I'd have to see it in context too. I would rather win a friend who will have my back, then break someone's spirit and have to worry about whether they'll try to put a knife in it.

    Breaking someone is not the kind of power I'd ever want.

    (Although my husband says I broke his spirit -- bah. He's just house-broken.)

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


  5. #5
    Texas Kenpo is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    161
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 23 Times in 15 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    (Although my husband says I broke his spirit -- bah. He's just house-broken.)
    --Amy
    Ouch - LOL - good one

  6. #6
    nelson is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    81
    Thanks
    4,700
    Thanked 2,055 Times in 1,335 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

    If you are interested in seeing BL's comments in context check out the "Tao of Jkd" and look in the last chapter. I personally feel that BL was a much better fighter than a philosopher but I do see his point.

    I believe that BL was speaking of a true combat situation afterwhich the odds of singing "Kumbaya" with your former opponent are slim to none.
    I do believe that breaking a man's or woman's spirit is different from humiliation however. A truly broken spirit will not "put a knife in your back" while a humiliated and disgraced one might just do that. When I was a bouncer and found it neccesary to put down a trouble maker I was taught always to allow the person to save face for this very reason.

    There is a prison term that I'd like to share with you all that some of the corrections people are well aware of, it's called "Stealing a man's ----". This comes about when you aggressively confront an opponent who is not yet ready to confront you. When I worked the bars I would see someone getting themselves worked up. The time to step in was before the blow up. I found that if I came out of nowhere and got in their faces I could surprise them and get them out the door before they caused any trouble.
    You bouncers will know what I mean but if your training comes from a dojo you will not know what I'm talking about. This concept is SIMILIAR to what I believe that BL was talking about.

    Have you ever witnessed a student that got their butt kicked so bad in the dojo that they never came back? This also may be the result of a broken spirit.

    Nelson

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to nelson For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (03-05-2007),kwanli (05-10-2007)

  8. #7
    jfarnsworth's Avatar
    jfarnsworth is offline Parker / Planas Lineage
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Mansfield, Ohio
    Posts
    1,583
    Thanks
    179
    Thanked 393 Times in 265 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    (Although my husband says I broke his spirit -- bah. He's just house-broken.)
    Yikes! Does that mean you all have conquered the whole, Leave the toilet seat up or down debate?

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Elk Grove, CA
    Posts
    4,018
    Thanks
    1,163
    Thanked 913 Times in 561 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by jfarnsworth View Post
    Yikes! Does that mean you all have conquered the whole, Leave the toilet seat up or down debate?
    Yes, except when he's mad at me and then he doesn't care if I (actually hopes that I do) fall in. lol.

    It's not really a debate. I win.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


  10. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    My own private Idaho
    Posts
    5,299
    Thanks
    4,907
    Thanked 3,587 Times in 2,193 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    Yeah, I do think it's possible to break a man's spirit so much that he never recovers. In that context, one would have to wonder about the individual's constitution prior to that though.

    A broken spirit can be healed but it's a long process and it will never be the same as it once was. That can be good and that can be bad, depending on the path taken to heal the spirit. Been there, done that both ways.

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dana Point, CA
    Posts
    2,343
    Thanks
    2,296
    Thanked 4,374 Times in 1,427 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    In an unecessary rage, I've been the breaker. I think it takes a certain mindset to be OK with being the sort of person who collapses another mans will so brutally, that they leave town and never return. I'm not OK with being that person. And yes, it's more effective long-term than just putting the beatdown on him.

    As a kid, I had the experience of being on the recieving end of the break; I've never put myself in that situation again. But, interestingly, I keep an eye opened for the bastard who broke it, and I do plan on returning the pain of brutality and humiliation the next time I see him, even if it's 90-years old in Liesure World. So I'm not convinced that broken spirits don't come back to haunt you.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

  12. #11
    nelson is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    81
    Thanks
    4,700
    Thanked 2,055 Times in 1,335 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    Dear Dr. Dave:

    I don't whether broken spirits "haunt" or not. My friend and sensei told me about a yonu man who he had been in prison with who was not interested in training in self defense but wanted some "tummy trimming" tips. My friend was going to meet iwth him the next day. That night he was put in a cell with a mixed race group of gangbangers. They took turns on the kid and he hung himself when he got the chance. The kid was in prison for draft evasion. Instead of taking the cowards way out and fleeing to Canada when he was turned down for his CO status he went to prison.
    When my Sensei told me the story he had tears in his eyes. He believed that the kid had killed himself because he didn't fight back like he should.
    I'm not so convinced that the shame and humiliation alone brought him to take his life.

    When I think of broken spirit I think of that kid I never knew. I'm not so sure your incident fits in the same category.

    Nelson

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dana Point, CA
    Posts
    2,343
    Thanks
    2,296
    Thanked 4,374 Times in 1,427 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Dr. Dave:

    When I think of broken spirit I think of that kid I never knew. I'm not so sure your incident fits in the same category.

    Nelson
    That extreme, certainly not. But I also would doubt that it's the extreme BL was talking about. He actually WAS a philosopher, having attended Washington State for a philo major. He also lived with other MA pseudo-philosophers, having the time and opportunity to discuss ideas with them. Among them was Wally Jay, and ardent pacifist,despite his ability to ruin your day.

    I hardly think Lee was espousing gang-rape or beatings as a means of breaking spirit.

    I can only conject, but this may be an example. A buddy of mine from Gracie days was the head bouncer at a nudie bar. Harley biker, chaps and all, come in and starts crap. An assistant bouncer with maybe 5 sessions on the mat places him in a choke,and he drifts out. Bouncer lets go to celebrate,and he wakes right back up and pulls a knife. My buddy goes at him, disarms him,and places him back in choke, but holds it for a slow 10 count, AFTER the guy goes soft from passing out. He gets dumped in the bushes outside the bar, where there is some concern that he may not wake up. He eventually does, but is so disturbed by his near-death experience, that he lays in the shrubs for about an hour before getting up and leaving, looking pensive the whole time.

    He could have gotten a gun, and come back to shoot the place up; I've had that happen as a bouncer too. But he didn't...the long nap and helplessness freaked him out. Broke his spirit, and he never returned. Without Lee here to ask, I can only guess that it was this sort of dominance over an opponent that he was referring to.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

  14. #13
    nelson is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    81
    Thanks
    4,700
    Thanked 2,055 Times in 1,335 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    Dear Dr. Dave:

    I don't know what BL had in mind either. I do enjoy reading the perspective of others and I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

    I appreciated your story about the NDE as well.

    No disrespect to Bruce but I still think his philosophy is weak despite his formal training. His fighting prowess is a horse of a different color of course!

    Do you believe that BL was as good of a teacher as he was a fighter?

    It seems that JKD has went by the wayside years ago and no longer is considered a prominent fighting art or have I missed something? Could it be the lack of a succesor has hurt JKD lin much the same fashion as it has split Kenpo after the death of Ed PArker?

    Nelson

  15. #14
    karatedude is offline
    KenpoTalk
    White Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    cleveland tn.
    Posts
    15
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    you are only defeated if you get knocked down and stay down, you have to get up and try again, your spirit can only be broken if you let it

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,361
    Thanks
    841
    Thanked 480 Times in 291 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    He may be speaking of "in battle" or war.

    You catch more flys with honey than vinegar.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Martin Seck For This Useful Post:

    Celtic_Crippler (04-16-2007)

  18. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    >I don't whether broken spirits "haunt" or not. My friend and sensei told me about a yonu man who he had been in >prison with who was not interested in training in self defense but wanted some "tummy trimming" tips. My friend >was going to meet iwth him the next day. That night he was put in a cell with a mixed race group of gangbangers. >They took turns on the kid and he hung himself when he got the chance. The kid was in prison for draft evasion. >Instead of taking the cowards way out and fleeing to Canada when he was turned down for his CO status he went >to prison.

    You are getting into the different personality profiles here.

    Usually someone that refuses to go into the service and would rather go to jail instead is an Earth Element (Traditional Chinese Medicine personality profiling system).

    So, on his part it was a moral obligation to NOT go into the service.

    >When my Sensei told me the story he had tears in his eyes. He believed that the kid had killed himself because he >didn't fight back like he should. I'm not so convinced that the shame and humiliation alone brought him to take his >life.

    Nope.

    SITUATION #1.
    In situations like that, it is the KNOWLEDGE that the future would bring the SAME ugly situation, again and again and again, and there was virtually nothing he (in his own mind) could do about it.

    He wasn’t a fighter so he could NOT fight the situation. He also could NOT face that situation. So his only choice was “away-from”.

    That negative future pacing brought on the suicide, which is a totally different topic than what Nelson brought up.

    In fact, he had to have a certain type of MORAL COURAGE to be able to do what he did. According to his values, being treated like that was worse than dying.

    SITUATION #2.
    In the BL situation, those examples in that book, were put together by someone BESIDES BL, from notes of what he’d read, that he thought were important. He did NOT write that book!

    And, “breaking” an individual can be done easily “if” the person being broken is an Earth element, a Fire Element, a Water Element, or a Metal Element.

    But, if you attempt to break a Wood element (like Dave), he will wait to get you, even if it takes 90 years.

    SITUATION #3.
    This is what is called battle fatigue, or Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. Depending upon the personality of the individual, it can be caused by one event, or like in the case of Viet Nam, it could be caused by many firefights where they had no control of the situation.

    The good news is, ANY of the three types of situations can be helped with the current knowledge in Energy Psychology, Energy Medicine, and Neuro-linguistic programming.

    SITUATION #4.
    So, even something as simple as military basic training could and is considered a “breaking technique”. A method of getting the new recruits to stop making decisions for themselves and to have the NCOs and the officers make all decisions for them. They lose their hair, their clothes and all their personal possessions. They are brainwashed into following orders.

    Just curious.

    How many people here had an article 15 while in the military for whomping the poop out of a squad leader for abusing their personal freedoms?

    ©Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    A Wood/Metal element that loves to give people what they deserve no matter how long it takes.
    Ps. I know this one lady that was beat up badly by three other chicks. She took her licking, and they left. She then healed and hunted them down one by one, doing the Ed Parker drill of making the crack of their asses meet the back of their heads. I liked her spirit so much that I married her. It’s been a very interesting 35 years.

  19. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to John M. La Tourrette For This Useful Post:

    Dr. Dave in da house (03-06-2007),kwanli (05-10-2007),thedan (03-06-2007)

  20. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dana Point, CA
    Posts
    2,343
    Thanks
    2,296
    Thanked 4,374 Times in 1,427 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post

    1. But, if you attempt to break a Wood element (like Dave), he will wait to get you, even if it takes 90 years.

    2. ...and Neuro-linguistic programming.

    3. How many people here had an article 15 while in the military for whomping the poop out of a squad leader for abusing their personal freedoms?
    1. Ayup. I'm also a snake...I'l lie in the grass an wait, changing skins as I go, until the right time to strike. I have infinite patience...revenge is a dish best served cold

    2. I heard that there NLP stuff was a satanic cult based on pseudo-science...what da hell is dat, and what's a future-pace, anyway?

    3. No comment.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

  21. #18
    Kosho Gakkusei is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    156
    Thanks
    27
    Thanked 32 Times in 21 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    I think what Bruce Lee meant by "breaking a man's spirit" was taking the fight out of someone. Brutally handing someone their rear is usually not the best way to do this.

    If it were there would not be so many rematches in the sport fighting world. In the sport fighting world, when guys give everything they got and get no results they will lose heart and give up before the fight's over. For example, a grappler fails to get a takedown after several rounds will lose their fight. On the other hand, a striker that fails to get his feet or land a shot for several rounds ends up allowing a submission to take place or dropping his guard.

    In self defense situations- it can take too long for the attacker to realize that he can not win and take the fight out of him. It's better to find a way before things get physical. This can be done by getting the attacker to laugh. Although on the other hand, if someone thinks you're laughing at them the result would be the opposite of taking the fight out of them.

    In my neck of the woods there's a local legend about the owner of one of the MA studios. This guy runs in outlaw biker circuits and is a former Navy Seal. The story is that he was at a bar and someone got unruly and started verbally threatening him. He calmly finished his beer, threw the mug up in the air and "powdered" it. Needless to say the big mouth backed down and shut up.

    Just my thoughts.
    _Don Flatt

  22. The Following User Says Thank You to Kosho Gakkusei For This Useful Post:

    thedan (05-09-2007)

  23. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    How many people here had an article 15 while in the military for whomping the poop out of a squad leader for abusing their personal freedoms?
    I'd have to raise my hand for that one. More than once, though I wouldn't say I "beat the poop" out of them. I tried, with some (varrying) degree of success.

    I have no problems with authority. But the abuse of authority will set me off every time. Sometimes passive agressivly, others outright down and out agressive- verbal, physical, or just plain stubborn and in your face. A character trait that I (unlike the psychologist they sent me to) do not see as a flaw. However, I don't think I've ever tried to destroy someones' spirit permanently by any means. If I had that power, it would be the ultimate abuse to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelson/Bruce Lee
    ""our sense of power is more vivid when we break a man's spirit than when we win his heart.....when we break a proud spirit, we achieve something that is final and absolute."
    As has been said, taken out of context, this appears to be different than in the martial sense. Taking his will to fight is necessary. But to permanently break a mans' spirit just to enhance your sense of power would be one of those things that set me against you for eternity. I just don't see this as being what Bruce Lee would have meant.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

  24. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking a man's spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    As has been said, taken out of context, this appears to be different than in the martial sense. Taking his will to fight is necessary. But to permanently break a mans' spirit just to enhance your sense of power would be one of those things that set me against you for eternity. I just don't see this as being what Bruce Lee would have meant. Dan C


    Actually what Bruce Lee did in his books is talk about several levels of fighting.

    And the quote about ďbreaking a manís spiritĒ is a totally different level than a bar fight, a tournament competition, or a fight with your wife.

    And Iíve pretty sure that it came from Musashiís writings, and was put there in Bruceís writing by the compiler after Bruceís death.

    Itís on the same line as what the North Koreans did to prisoners in the Korean War. They, through use of propaganda, behavioral conditioning, and covert torture, did steal menís spirits.

    And if you look very closely, you can see those exact same tactics being used covertly today.

    Oh well.

    ©Dr. John M. La Tourrette


  25. The Following User Says Thank You to John M. La Tourrette For This Useful Post:

    thedan (05-09-2007)

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Breaking
    By Rob Broad in forum General Martial Arts
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 01-03-2010, 10:05 PM
  2. Breaking Tradition
    By sifuroy in forum General Martial Arts
    Replies: 76
    Last Post: 12-12-2009, 12:57 AM
  3. Breaking?
    By Dianhsuhe in forum Kenpo General
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 11-08-2006, 04:39 PM
  4. AKF Spirit Camp 2006
    By ikenpo in forum Parkers Kenpo (EPAK) - General
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-11-2006, 11:51 PM
  5. About Kenpo Spirit Award...
    By kenpo0324 in forum Parkers Kenpo (EPAK) - General
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-19-2005, 03:02 PM

Search tags for this page (caching method: table, memcache)

break spirit of a man

,

breaking a man spirit

,
breaking a mans spirit cliff notes
,
breaking a mans will and spirit
,
breaking someones spirit
,
broke a mans spirit
,

can a mansspirit depart from woman

,

how to break a mans spirit

,

how to break someones spirit

,
men with broken spirits
,

menwithabroken spirit

,

when is a mans spirit broken

Click on a term to search our site for related topics.