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Thread: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

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    Default Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question.
    Letís say both are Black Belts.

    One only had say 20 techniques this person practiced them all the time, and could do them with perfect form, great control and great reflex. And could formulate on the fly with what is available.

    Then another person had 120 techniques, they stumbled through them and had crappy form. They couldnít do all of them with flash and were unable to formulate on the fly with what is available.

    Of the two who would be the better martial artist? The one with dozens of tools in the tool box. Or the one with fewer tools but could create as needed on the fly.

    Why do you choose the one you did.
    A black belt covers 2" of your butt. Covering the rest is soley up to you

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    Very simply put the person with the 20 techniques is better off. They know their material inside and out and know how to adapt it. The other person should probably take up Tae Bo.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    Very simply put the person with the 20 techniques is better off. They know their material inside and out and know how to adapt it. The other person should probably take up Tae Bo.

    LMAO Tae Bo
    A black belt covers 2" of your butt. Covering the rest is soley up to you

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    I agree with Rob. More isn't always better. What you can use effectively, reliably, and consistently is going to do you much more good, and the only way to develop that quality of useability is by training the material. The more you train it, the greater you will be able to use it. If yo are spread too thin, practicing too many things, you can't develop that useability.

    This is an issue I have personally wrestled with for a long time. Maybe it's still good to learn a lot of things (i.e. more techs), but you need to recognize which of those will work best for you. Learning the whole bunch gives you a broader range of experience, and a deeper body to choose from, but if you don't identify and focus on the ones that are best for you, your skills will always be lacking. Perhaps the rest can be thought of as ideas to play with, outside your main circle of old reliables...
    Michael


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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    Quote Originally Posted by hemi View Post
    Here’s a Chicken or the Egg question.
    Let’s say both are Black Belts.


    Then another person had 120 techniques, they stumbled through them and had crappy form. They couldn’t do all of them with flash and were unable to formulate on the fly with what is available.


    Why do you choose the one you did.
    He went to a McDojo, his cerificates are written in Crayola and in 10 years he will have his own add in Black Belt saying "I can make you a Black Belt too"

    Too often people rush through belts without proper understanding of everything each belt has to offer. If the 2nd candidtae had spent more time on each level and fully explored each level before moving on then he would not be stumbling. Unless he take the little yellow bus to his job at McDonalds each day and worries that the microwave may hurt the snaps that keeps his helmet from falling into the deep fryer.

    It is not the quantity of the techniques that should matter if the student has a firm grasp of everything they teach.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    Definitely the BB with 20 techs. What we learn must work.

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    "I'd rather have 10 techniques that I can fight with, than a 100 that fight me"
    SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    Hemi, I think you bring up a great idea, kinda against popular belief that more tools are better than few. With this question, what kinda of tools is the black belt using? 120 tools of primitive design? Is he trying to build a house with a hair dryer? I think 20 tools could be enough as long as they are nails hammer saw etc...

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    why not have a black belt that can use all of his 120+ techniques? at least 'most' of them? why are either of these 2 considered black belts? sounds to me we have a strong purple belt and a crappy brown belt, who may have been led down different paths of mediocrity.
    "Rust Never Sleeps" - N.Young.

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    Quote Originally Posted by hemi View Post
    Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question.
    Letís say both are Black Belts.

    One only had say 20 techniques this person practiced them all the time, and could do them with perfect form, great control and great reflex. And could formulate on the fly with what is available.

    Then another person had 120 techniques, they stumbled through them and had crappy form. They couldnít do all of them with flash and were unable to formulate on the fly with what is available.

    Of the two who would be the better martial artist? The one with dozens of tools in the tool box. Or the one with fewer tools but could create as needed on the fly.

    Why do you choose the one you did.
    It boils down to the practitioner in ANY art or system.

    In this example what if the guy with 20 techniques after "mastering" them decided to expand his knowledge and learn the 120 technique system.

    I believe with the same dedication he learned the 20 he would eventually master the 120 and be that much better.

    On the other side the guy with 120 would probably stumble through a 20 technique system as well and possibly remain sub-par.

    Just my opinion.

    Thanks for listening.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    A saying I heard one time that rings true to me:

    "Do not fear the man who knows 10,000 techniques, Fear the man who has practiced 1 technique 10,000 times"

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    Quote Originally Posted by NickName99 View Post
    Hemi, I think you bring up a great idea, kinda against popular belief that more tools are better than few. With this question, what kinda of tools is the black belt using? 120 tools of primitive design? Is he trying to build a house with a hair dryer? I think 20 tools could be enough as long as they are nails hammer saw etc...
    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    I agree with Rob. More isn't always better. What you can use effectively, reliably, and consistently is going to do you much more good, and the only way to develop that quality of useability is by training the material. The more you train it, the greater you will be able to use it. If yo are spread too thin, practicing too many things, you can't develop that useability.

    This is an issue I have personally wrestled with for a long time. Maybe it's still good to learn a lot of things (i.e. more techs), but you need to recognize which of those will work best for you. Learning the whole bunch gives you a broader range of experience, and a deeper body to choose from, but if you don't identify and focus on the ones that are best for you, your skills will always be lacking. Perhaps the rest can be thought of as ideas to play with, outside your main circle of old reliables...
    Ah yaíll hit the nail on the head 100%. I was doing my best to make that point exactly with out making it seem as though I am calling out anyone with a different point of view. I respect everyone here more than you know, but I also disagree with the running school of thought that more is always better.

    I was an auto mechanic for years, I have a snap on tool box and more tools than I will use in my lifetime. Some of these tools are specialty tools for doing brakes, some for tune upís and some for all kinds of crazy things. Now I like my Snap on tool for removing the springs on drum brakes. It works wonders but I can still get the job done with pliers and a screw driver.

    My point being that yes I may have 5 tools to do the same job but I can make one work and as long as the job gets done well thatís what matters to begin with.

    The other thing is if I can take 3 moves and do them in say 12 ways what if I have 27 moves and can do them in way over 1000 ways to make and adapt as the situation permits. Would I be better off working on family groupings of strikes and learning to get spontaneous with those or learning 100ís of techs?

    I see a lot of talk of 16 per belt, 24 per belt 32 per belt and the old way of 64 per belt. More so on the earlier systems like 64 per belt. That seems like it places a large hurtle in front of a student. I am dyslexic so I struggle along in Kenpo but I keep chipping away. Our school has less per belt but way more belts in our system. And that seems to work out better for me. I just have to wonder if you force every student that comes to study in a school to learn at the same rate seems like many would drop out. Only the hard core students would survive?

    Just something that I was thinking about and who better to ask then my friends here at KT and my instructor.





    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Kenpo View Post
    A saying I heard one time that rings true to me:

    "Do not fear the man who knows 10,000 techniques, Fear the man who has practiced 1 technique 10,000 times"
    I love that one, my instructor quotes Mr. Parker a lot.
    A black belt covers 2" of your butt. Covering the rest is soley up to you

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    more is better, as long as it is better. it seems like you are looking for an excuse to do less and still feel good about what you are doing. Its rationalizing mediocrity. why not hold your standards higher?

    the only reason the amount of material would matter, is if you are ruled by what your wearing around your waist. its not about forcing everyone to learn at the same rate, but rather progressing through the material as individuals. some will take a year to make yellow belt, some will be purple in the same time. who cares, if you are doing your best and like what you are doing? why lower the standards so people can attain rank more quickly... then you develop the next belt mentality.

    i think you are wrong. the only ones that will stick are not just the 'hard cores' but those that are really interested in learning and not those interested in belt fashion.
    "Rust Never Sleeps" - N.Young.

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    Quote Originally Posted by hemi View Post
    I just have to wonder if you force every student that comes to study in a school to learn at the same rate seems like many would drop out. Only the hard core students would survive?
    well, I would hope that regardless of the size of the curriculum, any individual student would be allowed to learn and progress at whatever rate worked best for him/her. Slower for some, faster for others, no pressure to test for rank. Let it happen naturally, when the individual is ready for it, not forced.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    I love that one, my instructor quotes Mr. Parker a lot.[/quote]

    Is that a Parker quote?
    I did not know that.
    Thanks

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    more is better, as long as it is better. it seems like you are looking for an excuse to do less and still feel good about what you are doing. Its rationalizing mediocrity. why not hold your standards higher?

    the only reason the amount of material would matter, is if you are ruled by what your wearing around your waist. its not about forcing everyone to learn at the same rate, but rather progressing through the material as individuals. some will take a year to make yellow belt, some will be purple in the same time. who cares, if you are doing your best and like what you are doing? why lower the standards so people can attain rank more quickly... then you develop the next belt mentality.

    i think you are wrong. the only ones that will stick are not just the 'hard cores' but those that are really interested in learning and not those interested in belt fashion.
    At what point did he say he was looking to do less? Hemi stated that his school has the same amount of material just broken up a little differently.

    With the logic of more is better if it is better then Tracy's practioners would surmise that Tracy's is a better art than EPAK because they have more. And that same logic would dictate that EPAK is better than the IKCA's material because there is more. That is just flawed logic, especially if the individuals end up in the same place eventually. There are many different paths to get to the same conclusion and not everyone learns the same way or needs as many lessons to get to that sme place.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Kenpo View Post
    A saying I heard one time that rings true to me:

    "Do not fear the man who knows 10,000 techniques, Fear the man who has practiced 1 technique 10,000 times"
    I like it. Well said.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    The former. Fewer techniques well executed and the ability to adapt to the situation is much preferrable to the well educated, yet mediocre martial artist.

    Why? In the heat of battle, nothing is going to come off perfect. The better honed the technique, the less fall off and the better chance of success. Mediocre ability, regardless of quantity, will put #2 at a greater risk of receiving a good drubbing.

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    At one point in my late twenties, I held black belt ranks in 3 different kenpo/kempo systems, a Japanese hard-style, and a Chinese Boxing system. I was fluent in all of the techniques and forms for each set of requirements (no, I didn't have a life, and yes, I did practice 7 days a week, for upwards of 4-8 hours per day, and had since pre-teen days to the exclusion of things like a high school dating life, homework, etc.).

    Some of those were more complex than others, and took longer to develop a "combat ready" proficiency in. Anyone can pick up a rock, tie it to a stick, and bang some yay-hoo over the head with it (the less complex systems, with fewer requirements). Getting into the arts as a lifelong endeavor entails, in my opinion, a determination to have your rudimentary hammer available in your back pocket, while investing the time necessary to build a higher-tech space shuttle, with which you will continue to explore even more sophisticated territory. After you've reached that point, you end up having choice: I can hit him with my rock hammer, or blow him up with a guided missile.

    The false dichotomy of the question assumes there aren't skilled black belts with the 120 techs who could pants the 20 tech dude handily. Erroneous assumption.

    Best Regards,

    Dave
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Hereís a Chicken or the Egg question

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    The false dichotomy of the question assumes there aren't skilled black belts with the 120 techs who could pants the 20 tech dude handily. Erroneous assumption.

    Best Regards,

    Dave

    No, Sorry I never intended to imply that any black belt with upwards of 50 or more techs was lacking in skill or that they would be unable to maintain proficiency in said amount of techs. I was just using that number and those examples as just that, examples.
    A black belt covers 2" of your butt. Covering the rest is soley up to you

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