How important is history and lineage to you?

[Dianhsuhe]

Since Kempo/Kenpo is known for it's bickering based on lineage and who trained when and where, how important is it to you?

[sigung86]

Sometimes the lineage "thang" appears to be more for politics, money, and prestige than anything really useful. It's the quality of the instruction that you are currently receiving that is important.

The old timers can't even agree on who taught who and when... How do we, honestly, expect to come up with anything that really matters in the long run.

Do you like what you are learning? Is it, in your estimation, effective? Wasn't it Ed Parker who said something like, "Where fist meets flesh, that's pure Karaté"? Don't recall him saying where Tatum/Planas/etc. etc. etc. meets student ...

Just thoughts.

[Dianhsuhe]

I agree with much you posted. I guess for me I want to give back to a system and founder who spent his entire life giving, and developing a system and he never got the credit he deserved (while he was alive anyway).

I do enjoy the history and lineage side of things.

[youngbraveheart]

History and lineage would not have meant anything to me when I was younger...I feel fortunate that I was accepted as a student of a style that has a very short lineage with a lot of history...

[ronin6]

I appreciate the lineage of my instructors. I think it goes back to my roots in the Japanese arts. It was always a big thing and especially in the Aikido world. I think as time goes on we march further away from the source and that leads to interpretations. In the end I feel as though as long as you are respectful of those who came before you will honor their sprit in your techniques.

[execkenpo]

My thoughts on the matter have evolved and keep evolving as I grow older. At one time, lineage would have been very important to me and who my instructors instructor was and their relationship to SGM Parker. Now having seen a couple of different seniors in person, and others via the internet (gotta love technology) I have come to realize they all have different perspectives and ideas they bring to their interpretation of kenpo. I agree that if you are happy with what you are personally learning and it is effective, that is the most important consideration. If you are learning the principles behind the movement and can truly apply what you are learning then I say great! If not, is it you or your teacher? If it's the teacher, find a new one.

According to some of our seniors, Mr. Parker was constantly evolving kenpo and encouraging his students to explore and evolve. So how important is lineage in our case when even the big kahuna changed things and taught diffeent ways of doing the techniques to different people?

Now, I train, I explore and I will continue to learn, until the day I die.

Incidentally, my instructor trains under Trejo, so I am under the Parker/Trejo lineage. My previous instructor was under Polanzo so I was under the Parker/Polanzo lineage in the past.

[kenpochrstn]

Just as a matter of keeping the system fully intact. When you know a certain instructor's lineage. You should be able to decipher what/how they teach. I want someone who is solid in the EPAK system. Not a far out variation of the system.

1stJohn1:9

[Celtic_Crippler]

Since Kempo/Kenpo is known for it's bickering based on lineage and who trained when and where, how important is it to you?

It appears the current poll results are indicitive of why KT functions so well and explains why there is little "bickering" here.

[Rob Broad]

I am the original Kenpo Whore. I will learn from anyone that has something I want to learn.

[Celtic_Crippler]

I am the original Kenpo Whore. I will learn from anyone that has something I want to learn.

That about sums it for me too!

[Rob Broad]

That about sums it for me too!

I have taken it to the extreme, I had a website and some shoulder rocker's made saying Kenpo Whore. I really need to find those rockers.

[Celtic_Crippler]

I have taken it to the extreme, I had a website and some shoulder rocker's made saying Kenpo Whore. I really need to find those rockers.

Let me know if you do....and how much! LOL ...I'm serious.

[sifuroy]

I think knowing your general lineage is important. Also it will vary depending on who you ask. Even written accounts vary. I think you should know who and where your art came from and probably Those who have contributed a lot to it.. I wouldn't place too much stock in finding out all the details. They are probably not accurate anyway. Some styles have a very long history and some fairly short.
I was at a recent Shotokan test and asked a few simple questions about their roots. Who founded it and a breif history and such. The student had no clue. After the test the instructor said he didn't know a lot about it either. I gave him a copy of Funikoshis book. Their history is fairly short straight forward and easy to follow. They should have known about it. Again did it make a difference in how they performed? No, the young man did very well in his test.

I am most Respectfully,
sifuroy

[Rob Broad]

Let me know if you do....and how much! LOL ...I'm serious.

I will check my storage bin, because I have not seen them since before I moved back down to Chatham. The guy who made them lives here, so I may just have to do another batch.

But for now I have a few important family matters that are taking precidence over anything else.

[Dr. Dave in da house]

I will check my storage bin, because I have not seen them since before I moved back down to Chatham. The guy who made them lives here, so I may just have to do another batch.

But for now I have a few important family matters that are taking precidence over anything else.

You can put me down for one.

D.

[Dr. Dave in da house]

I hate to say it, but I have see personally where lineage matters. Not for lineage's sake, but for the flow of information down legacy lines.

I've trained with guys who were under Chow; different approach. I've trained with guys from kajukenbo from different lineages (Ascuncion, Dascascos, Reyes)...different foci and feels. In AK, I've trained in the cribs of a half-dozen 1st gens and a few sessions with the old man himself. Each has different foci, each has different points of emphasis. On a spectrum, some actually ARE better than others.

I can tell you; the further away the apple falls from the tree, the more diluted the information gets. The transmission of data becomes more diluted. One reason I like Mr. Buggs' site, Youtube and these boards is it gives some of the oldsters a place to make their ideas and -- hopefully -- examples of a job well-done available to the public. I'm actually nervous for the quality of kenpo available for our grandchildren's generation. They'll all have Tatum's reverb (while lacking strength due to emulating speed too soon), and the lack of internal sophistication of the IKCA tapes, as those resources will outlive us all, and be the reference standard for future kenpoists.

I already see it when I meet out-of-country kenpoists, resolved to getting their material from tapes and their ranks from seminars and camps. The details that are transmitted from teacher to student with on-the-spot corrections in person are slowly getting dropped out. At least now the authors of these materials are alive, kicking, and showing up at regular intervals to make glaring error corrections. But the devil is in the details; some lineages never paid that much attention to begin with, while others have, but can't under current training models.

After many years and a 5th dan, I can still show up at Docs and re-learn my neutral bow, blocks, stances, foot maneuvers, strikes, etc. In a brief handful of workouts with Mr. Hale, I learned quite a bit about my motion kenpo that needed improvement, including better ways of doing techniques I've been training on since I was 8 years old. And the list goes on. What do we do for quality control when these 1st gen perfectionists are gone? What does this say about kenpoists who are too prideful of their current material to be willing to explore alternative resources, even though what they're doing is filled with room for improvement?

I meet guys a half-dozen steps removed from the sources, and they are convinced that their aggressiveness and tribalistic loyalty NECISSARILY means they are practicing good kenpo. Problem is, their sloppy instructor has told them so, just as his did, as his did, and so on. And some lineages are historically related to Parker only through IKKA membership manuals, and not direct "how to" training.

Back to my visually unimpressive -- but hopefully structurally sound -- horse stance and inward block training,

Dave

PS - Sorry for the rant; this is just one of those things I think is important, and related to quality control getting dropped out.

[Celtic_Crippler]

Kenpo and the martial arts have survived for thousands of years. Chow's lineage is questioned by many, and Mitose even more so. Who taught Mitose's ancestors? Some Chinese guy? Do you feel that after thousands of years the art has become so diluted to be ineffective?? Put it into perspective. The practicioners will "keep the flame" as they always have.

Every generation has had it's contributers that shined above the rest. It is important to know who they were and are now so you'll know where to look to improve elements of your training.

I don't think we're in any jeapardy though, especially as you said exposure is now more prominent, moreso than ever the worlds become a smaller place. Information is more readily available. While I appreciate your concern for the integrity of the art, I personally only see it getting better with time. But hey, I try to be positive.

[John Brewer]

I truly enjoy talking to people about the lineage they have been introduced to. As posted above though, is the material quality, does it work?

[flying crane]

I think there will always be a smaller number of individuals who are very focused on keeping high standards and high quality. The unfortunate reality of martial arts as a business (all martial arts, not just kenpo) is that many more people will do it with less high standards, and of course will not know the difference.

So there will be quality training available to those fortunate enough to live close to those who have kept high standards and have the ability to teach the same. For the rest, they will do it less well.

Dave - good post, having recently re-started my own kenpo training, I can certainly relate.

Celtic - good points as well.

[parkerkarate]

Since Kempo/Kenpo is known for it's bickering based on lineage and who trained when and where, how important is it to you?

To me history and lineage are important. I would like to take lessons from the first generation black belts. I was never able to ever meet Mr. Parker since I did not start until 1997. So the higher ranking black belts know what this stuff is really supposed to look like. I just feel so lucky if I can take a class from Mr. Palanzo, Mr. Tom Kelly, Mr. Larry Tatum, and Mr. Ron Chapel just to name a few. They know what it should look like, how it works, and they look great doing it.

Now that I can start spending money on myself again I plan on trying to go to camps and such. I have not done anything major in at least 3 years. While I am at school the closest thing I can get to seeing the way Kenpo is supposed to be is dvd's of Mr. Parker seminars and a few Mr. Tatum dvd's.