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Thread: Gun threat?

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    Ceicei's Avatar
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    Default Gun threat?

    I work with some clients, many with a disability, either physical or mental (or both). There is one certain client who might have a mental issue, but he refuses to be evaluated.

    Anyway, he had an altercation at his work, and as a result, lost his job. After his work, he had a run-in with a guy on the bus. Basically, he was already riled up. Somehow during the weekend, he got a hold of my home phone number and called repeatedly while I was away. Finally, my husband answered and made it clear to him not to call my home number any more and for him to call me directly at my work number with any work related stuff or else he will report this as phone harrassment.

    The client then called me at work the next business day and vented about everything that happened to him. He also was venting about some "drug guys" who treated him poorly. Immediately after that, he started screaming about my husband, saying that my husband is so jealous to not let him talk to me at all. He then stated "I have a gun. I don't like people who make me angry." I explained calmly to him that my husband doesn't have anything personal against him, just that he is not to call my home again and anything related to work has to be called through my work number. He then repeated the same "I have a gun" comment for emphasis, leaving me wondering whether that was a threat against my husband or me, or if it is just a general expression of frustration.

    Some of the people I work with are very unpredictable, and he is one of these. The question is how seriously should I take this? As is mandated by my work, I had to file an incident report and this was transmitted to the local police to keep on record. This is all they can do at this point.

    The thing is, if he has my home number, he very surely has my home address too.

    As you know, I train in Kenpo (2nd brown) and in Jujitsu (1 year). I have my own guns at home as well as a pair of big dogs. When out, I can pack a gun with a concealed carry permit. However, none of that will stop a determined person with a gun, if that is his intent. I also realized that I know very little of gun disarms (since kenpo doesn't teach these gun techniques until 1st brown).

    I sincerely hope he is "all talk and no action". I don't think he has a firearm available to him, but who knows....

    I just wanted to get this out to you as this whole situation has been on my mind lately.

    - Ceicei
    Studying martial arts is for life, not for the color of the belt.

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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    Ceicei:

    Yes by all means take this guy seriously you say you deal with mentally unstable people so that makes this guy that much more of a threat. I donít know about your state but phone harassment in TX is pretty serious. Also you might consider getting a restraining order on this person.

    I would not leave the house without your weapon in an accessible spot I know most concealed carry options are not great for easy access but something to consider while you are out.

    Also I would try and park your cars in the garage if that is not possible then at least look into the car before you get in and you might consider doing a once around the car. Check your blind side before you get in, itís so hard to defend from inside a car or pull a weapon.

    The last thing I recommend be very aware when you are out, look for anything out of the ordinary. Just be a little extra on guard for a little bit just to be safe. Itís not my intention to scare the be gebees out of you but itís better to be safe.
    A black belt covers 2" of your butt. Covering the rest is soley up to you

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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    Ceicei, I'd prety much echo what nelson said. (edit: and hemi, who posted while I was typeing).

    Heightened awareness and security is number one for you and yours. But I'm guessing you are already in that mode.

    If you are going to carry a pistol, regardless of this threat, I'd suggest you practice drawing it under direct force, where he is on you or very close. There are tactics you can use to protect the drawing hand and the firearm while engaged with the assailant.

    As for disarming him, I'd go with one or two simple techniques instead of trying a crash course in AK disarms. If you have a good CQC class in your area they might be a good place to get help. But use a lot of discernment when checking them out. If their techniques are too complex, violate solid principles or just look like they won't work, I'd say look elsewhere.

    There is a simple and easily adaptable disarm technique that I've practiced, and is the default I'd use if I ever was unfortunate enough to need one. I'll see if I can write it up so it is understandable and pm it to you. (edit: I'll post it here instead- maybe some others will have some insights)

    This will probably work itself out, but I really feel for you and your husband in this situation. Good luck.

    Dan C
    Last edited by thedan; 12-15-2006 at 01:19 AM.
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    PISTOL DISARM:

    Base technique- opponent is facing you and pointing a pistol at you in his right hand. He/the weapon is within easy reach.

    Raise your hands just a littlehigher than the weapon. He expects this move, so it is not seen as a threat.
    - If he's pointing at your belly button, your hands should come up no higher than your solar plex.
    - If he's pointing it at your nose, bring your hands to the level of your ears.
    - You may verbalise something non threatening, like "Don't shoot."

    Immediately step your left foot in toward the attacker, outside his weapon arm, turning your body out of the line of the muzzle as you do so.

    Simultaneosly grab the top rear of the firearm with your left hand and underneath the trigger guard with your right.
    - Your fingers should overlap as they wrap around the firearm and his hand/fingers.
    - If he has a semi auto your grip sill prevent the slide from operating if the weapon fires.
    - If a revolver, your grip should prevent the cylander from rotating. In the case of a double action, this would prevent him bringing a round into battery and fireing.
    - If the pistol has an exposed hammer, your top/right hand grip should prevent it from falling and fireing a round.

    Immediately pull the firearm straight into your body and hold/pin it there, making sure that you do not turn the muzzle toward you as you pull.

    As soon as the firearm and hand is pinned, step your left foot back to your rear. A step through reverse works here.
    - This will bend his wrist inward, putting a tremendouse ammount of pressure there and structurally weakening his forearm and hand, allowing you to take the firearm.
    - It also pulls him off ballance, loading his right foot and making retalaiation difficult.
    - This will also cause a tremendouse ammount of pain. But do not depend on the pain to stop him, especially if he is on drugs or has mental problems. It is the structural breakdown that makes this tech work.

    Immediately strike him with the weapon.
    - Hit him where it will do the most dammage and like you intend the strike to save your life (should be easy to visualize that).

    Cover out and leave, with the weapon. Call the police.

    Modifications- this works equally well inside or outside. Everything is exactly the same except where you step. Inside obviously would bend the wrist back instead of in.

    If he is behind you, pointing the gun to your right temple, your first move is to cat back with your right foot and heel palm the gun with your left hand crossing over your right shoulder. This will turn the muzzle away from you and drive it back into, or at least towards his face. He will jerk his head back, buying you at least a fraction of a second. Also, if he is close, it will drive your right shoulder into him (think Captured Twigs, but you don't want to move him back as hard here- see notes).

    From here, continure to step behind with the right foot as you grab over the top with the left and under with the right, just like the base, and pull it down to your chest as you pivot your stance. (I'm not giving specific stances as your relative position will dictate footwork). Now, step through reverse...

    If the gun is pointing at your back, determine which hand it is in if possible. If not, this tech still works inside or out, so it isn't absolutely necessary.

    Hands up, making sure they are higher than the weapon. Turn your body to the right (for instructional purposes) and step back with your right foot. Strike down with the right arm, deflecting the gun hand.

    Simultaneously reach over with the left and track his arm to its' grabing position. Bring the right up to grab. Pull in and pin, and you are into the base tech.

    As you get used to it, this tech works from any angle and relative position. You can learn to control the direction the muzzle points so it doesn't endanger bystanders. And it works against two hand grips as well.
    Couple of other pointers:

    Train with dummy firearms with no trigger guard. Trigger guards tend to be hard on your dummies finger. We used to use a toy dart gun with the guard cut off and filed smooth.

    When disarming a pistol, it is extremely important to get the weapon immobilized in such a way that the muzzle is not pointed at you. If, for some reason you miss the pin, move into him and get control. Do not strike him in such a way that he will move or be moved backwards. And DO NOT move back yourself before you have control of that weapon. Moving him or yourself away will have the effect of pulling the weapon straight into allignment with you. Try it for yourself. Have a partner hold a dummy pistol pointed away from you. Grab his hands or the gun, and just sit down. Notice how big the bore looks from this perspective.

    Again, plug in your own footwork depending on relative position of him and the gun, and your own preferences. But all the principles and concepts still apply.

    It is really a lot simpler than I make it sound, which is a good thing in a technique meant to save your life.
    Hope this is somewhat helpful.
    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    First off do not answer his calls at home and let an answering machine get his messages that way you can take them to the police. Let your supervisors at work know of the situation, and that you no longer wish to have this person assigned to you. Let your entire family know about the situation and to be on the look out for anything out of place. Maybe even let a few neighbors know to keep thier eyes open.

    I fully understand confidentiality but in a situation like this I say ti hell with it, your safety comes first. At worst give him my home address, I am always in a P. O.'d mood.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ceicei View Post
    I work with some clients, many with a disability, either physical or mental (or both). There is one certain client who might have a mental issue, but he refuses to be evaluated.

    Anyway, he had an altercation at his work, and as a result, lost his job. After his work, he had a run-in with a guy on the bus. Basically, he was already riled up. Somehow during the weekend, he got a hold of my home phone number and called repeatedly while I was away. Finally, my husband answered and made it clear to him not to call my home number any more and for him to call me directly at my work number with any work related stuff or else he will report this as phone harrassment.

    The client then called me at work the next business day and vented about everything that happened to him. He also was venting about some "drug guys" who treated him poorly. Immediately after that, he started screaming about my husband, saying that my husband is so jealous to not let him talk to me at all. He then stated "I have a gun. I don't like people who make me angry." I explained calmly to him that my husband doesn't have anything personal against him, just that he is not to call my home again and anything related to work has to be called through my work number. He then repeated the same "I have a gun" comment for emphasis, leaving me wondering whether that was a threat against my husband or me, or if it is just a general expression of frustration.

    Some of the people I work with are very unpredictable, and he is one of these. The question is how seriously should I take this? As is mandated by my work, I had to file an incident report and this was transmitted to the local police to keep on record. This is all they can do at this point.

    The thing is, if he has my home number, he very surely has my home address too.

    As you know, I train in Kenpo (2nd brown) and in Jujitsu (1 year). I have my own guns at home as well as a pair of big dogs. When out, I can pack a gun with a concealed carry permit. However, none of that will stop a determined person with a gun, if that is his intent. I also realized that I know very little of gun disarms (since kenpo doesn't teach these gun techniques until 1st brown).

    I sincerely hope he is "all talk and no action". I don't think he has a firearm available to him, but who knows....

    I just wanted to get this out to you as this whole situation has been on my mind lately.

    - Ceicei
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    Sounds like you're already pretty well prepared. I commend you for caring enough about your safety to have a CCW and carry a pistol. Just make sure it's ALWAYS with you, accessible, and ready to use.

    The techniques Dan described are pretty similar to what I teach. A while back I posted links to some vid-clips and photo-progressions I did on two basic gun disarms. you can find them here if you're interested. a couple of gun-disarm clips

    I definately prefer stuff like this (mine or Dan's) over the AK techniques due to their simplicity and the fact that they are easy to learn and retain. Definately, grab a partner and practice. You'd be surprised at how quickly you can gain proficiency.
    The test: "Will this work so that I can use it instinctively in vital combat against an opponent who is determined to prevent me from doing so, and who is striving to eliminate me by fair means or foul?" ~ Col. Rex Applegate

    Matt K.

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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    Lot's of excellent suggestions.

    1) Let your co-workers and management know. Keep records.

    2) Let the police know and make sure you get a copy of the police report. If you have to do something nasty to him it will bode better for you if there is a record reinforcing you were the intended victim and he the attacker.

    3) If you've had the proper gun safety training and have the permit, carry a gun.

    4) Have your instructor go over gun disarms with you. People just don't pull guns on black belts. That's a pet peeve of mine.

    5) During this time make a mental note to be more aware of your environment. *That goes for your husband too.

    6) STAY SAFE!
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Ė Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    It is really a lot simpler than I make it sound, which is a good thing in a technique meant to save your life.
    Hope this is somewhat helpful.
    Dan C
    Thank you very much for posting these techniques. I will definitely practice these. Since I do carry a gun with me, being able to know how to do your version of disarms are helpful and will be practical.

    Thank you to all those who made comments.

    It has been a quiet couple of days. I hope it stays that way....

    - Ceicei
    Studying martial arts is for life, not for the color of the belt.

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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    Obviously you have gotten some great information from the posters. I really can't add anything just keep yourself safe and have a great holiday.

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    Texas Kenpo is offline
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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    One thing I didnt see suggested here or maybe I missed it:
    Does your husband know what this guy looks like? Probably be a good idea if he did.

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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Kenpo View Post
    One thing I didnt see suggested here or maybe I missed it:
    Does your husband know what this guy looks like? Probably be a good idea if he did.
    Yes, he knows what the guy looks like. The guy came up to talk to us at a public gathering about a month ago.
    Studying martial arts is for life, not for the color of the belt.

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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpotex View Post
    I definately prefer stuff like this (mine or Dan's) over the AK techniques due to their simplicity and the fact that they are easy to learn and retain.
    *smirk* I wasn't going to say anything like that, but...

    Dan C
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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceicei View Post
    Thank you very much for posting these techniques. I will definitely practice these.
    You're welcome. It's really just one thechnique, modified slightly to adapt to different scenarios. That's the beauty of it, it's one simple and effective technique. I was shown the base once and adapted and modified it on my own. So, once you get the base, you should have no problems adapting it yourself.

    The only thing I'd stress about the tech, or any disarm, is if you should somehow miss the grab and pin, do not back out, let him back out, or back him out. I have a real problem with techs that strike the opponent and move him backwards. That gun is a distance weapon- why give him the advantage back? Move in hard and stay with him until you get control. Once you have control of the firearm, i.e. holding onto it, it is even more imperative that you not drive him back as you will automatically line the barrel up on you. This is the biggest failing of the vast majority of firearms techniques out there. And the biggest mistake we tend to make. We want to hit him, disable the computer, right? But we need to be careful not to destroy ourselves in the process.

    Hope this helps. And I sincerely hope you don't need it. But kudos for having the courage to address it.

    Dan C
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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    For those who asked, I work out of three different facilities (one of them is a Mental Health facility) and do bring some work home with me to process. As such, I have a pager/cell phone that is with me for ease of contact by my colleagues and supervisors. My pager/cell phone is set up to capture the phone numbers of incoming calls (functions as a caller id), so I usually know ahead of time with both of my home and work phone lines before I answer.

    The update is this client has been transferred off my caseload to another team in a different facility (with a higher security) in a nearby town, so my chance of seeing him is a lot less now. The police in both towns are aware of him. It turns out this is the same individual who has a history of being violent at times. Hopefully, he will finally get evaluated.

    - Ceicei
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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    Hope you're doing well, and stay on guard. I think C.C. has some great advice, as do the other posters here. We all care about you and hope for the best in this situation
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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    I hope your still learning and practicing your gun disarms and defenses. I was wondering if you notified your Sensei of the situation and if he offered any help or advice.

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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    Document everything.

    Inform the police.

    Let your employer know.

    If possible, alter your schedule. Start at different times, using different routes. Don't eat lunch at the same place...

    If you do everything else right, the likelihood of needing a gun disarm becomes very very small.
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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    Quote Originally Posted by cutter View Post
    I hope your still learning and practicing your gun disarms and defenses. I was wondering if you notified your Sensei of the situation and if he offered any help or advice.
    Yes, I still practice them, but not as often as I should. At the time of the incident, my instructor knows and trained me extensively on these disarms. However, I am now with a different school, so the current one doesn't know about the situation.

    The guy who made the threat has moved out of state, so from him, I do not need to worry at the moment.

    - Ceicei
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    Default Re: Gun threat?

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    Document everything.

    Inform the police.

    Let your employer know.

    If possible, alter your schedule. Start at different times, using different routes. Don't eat lunch at the same place...

    If you do everything else right, the likelihood of needing a gun disarm becomes very very small.
    My employer and the police already has a record of the situation since I had to make official reports to both. My employer filed a a restraining order against him with my place of work, so he is not allowed to be at my facility and will be escorted out by the police if he tries. Whether he will comply will be up to him.

    Currently, the gun threat guy has moved out of state. Of course, he will most likely move back again sometime (he is one of those who do not stay in the same place for very long and has a rap sheet). Since he is well known in the community where I interact, I will know of his presence soon enough if and when he returns.

    I have no illusion of my safety and I do not trust him.

    - Ceicei
    Studying martial arts is for life, not for the color of the belt.

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