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Thread: Do you train what to say??

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    Default Do you train what to say??

    Yes, you read the title correctly. Do you train what to say during a confrontation?

    With so much discussion about legal implications lately I figured this would be a good topic as well. How often in class do you teach, or learn what to say during conflict? It really is important to get into the habit of voicing your intent and warning. We often train techniques at the same time training to use phrases like "Stop attacking", "Don't hurt me!", or "Help me!"

    Think about it. If you've watched Cops or the local news when police interview a witness and ask them what they "saw" the witness more often than not repeats what they "heard." They'll say things like, "That guy there swung on him and he kept telling him to stop, but he wouldn't."

    Using phrases like this will further reinforce your intent was only to defend yourself. It could make the difference in a trial when witnesses are called.

    What are some phrases you think would be good to use? They should be short and direct to be as effective as possible.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Texas Kenpo is offline
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    Default Re: Do you train what to say??

    We actually worked a drill last week involving verbal threats and replies. It was a scenario with 2 attackers verbally threating us while we moved away (flanking move with our hands up in a non-threating posture) replying we didnt want any trouble. Well trouble always comes in the dojo so we responded in force to the initial aggressor and then dealt with the 2nd assailant who sometimes didnt really want any of what he saw his compadre receive and chose to retreat.

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    Texas Kenpo is offline
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    Default Re: Do you train what to say??

    Our verbage included things like
    "Look I dont want any trouble"
    "Hey I gotta go"
    "Leave me alone"

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    marvinmckenzie is offline
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    Default Re: Do you train what to say??

    This reminded me of a teenage girl here in WA who, for a school project, produced a video teaching girls how to defend themselves. Apparently she has a black belt in TKD and has trained in Philipino street fighting techniques. She got here teacher to help her develop a ten technique system for girls to learn to protect themselves.

    The video teaches the girls to yell "FIRE" throughout their defense efforts. The theory of the teacher is that bystanders will be more likely to respond with to the girl's cries than if she yelled help.

    If you wish, you can view the video at www.justyellfire.com

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    Default Re: Do you train what to say??

    Initially (in the early stages of the "interview") stuff like: keep your distance/I'm not looking for trouble, etc. can be okay.

    When/if it becomes necessary to verbally escalate I prefer commands like: "Stop" or "Back off." They're short and to the point and leave no ambiguity as to what I want them to do. I also feel that the use of profanity at this level of the confrontation will serve to strengthen your presentation. Presuming you weren't using profanity in the initial stages, adding it here can show that you mean business. For example, ititially you might say (in a normal tone), "hey man, I'm not looking for trouble/keep your distance/I can't help you/whatever." If the person continues to advance, you can verbally escalate to a "BACK THE F*** OFF!!!" type of response. If they heed your commands and back up, you can then de-escalate you your previous level. If they continue to advance at this point...game on.
    I've had a lot of success with this verbal escalation/de-escalation method in my work (various security, EP, bouncer, etc.).

    I DON'T like phrases like: "don't hurt me" or "leave me alone" because I feel that these types of phrases are probably just going to encourage the bad guy. Saying "please don't hurt me" is just going to cause him to view me as weak.
    The test: "Will this work so that I can use it instinctively in vital combat against an opponent who is determined to prevent me from doing so, and who is striving to eliminate me by fair means or foul?" ~ Col. Rex Applegate

    Matt K.

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    Default Re: Do you train what to say??

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Kenpo View Post
    Our verbage included things like
    "Look I dont want any trouble"
    "Hey I gotta go"
    "Leave me alone"
    We use these too. I also noticed you get your hands up, we've been taught to do this so if he slides inside your hands are obviously much closer to his face.

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    Default Re: Do you train what to say??

    We used to, but I havn't in a while.

    I pretty much agree with kenpotex. One thing we also used to bring into the training was what police are taught in handling agressive contacts. You raise your level of verbal agression and attitude to just below or at their level, except you don't threaten or antagonize. This way, you meet their agression and don't appear weak or afraid. If you go above their level, you are the agressor and now have to defend your position or back down- again looking week. However, if you are being maneuvered into a bad position or situation, give a loud, firm command to back off, then nail him.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: Do you train what to say??

    Personally, I didn't pay too much attention to this issue in the past. But, I did pick up a few pointers from discussions like this. Right now, I'm still wondering if too much verbal communication can put you at a disadvantage, ie, the element of surprise being lost.
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    Talking Re: Do you train what to say??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    Personally, I'm still wondering if too much verbal communication can put you at a disadvantage, ie, the element of surprise being lost.
    I think the element of surprise is good, we just don't tell them we are going to poke out there eye lol.. I like to say stop as I put my finger in to someone's eye..
    "Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else, YOU are the one who gets burned."
    Buddha.

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    Default Re: Do you train what to say??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    Personally, I didn't pay too much attention to this issue in the past. But, I did pick up a few pointers from discussions like this. Right now, I'm still wondering if too much verbal communication can put you at a disadvantage, ie, the element of surprise being lost.
    Too much can definately put you at a disadvantage. So can not enough. Besides the obviouse bennifits of not having to fight, you could also land yourself in jail if you just jump in and nail him, even if he threatens you first. You also need to train to be seen as the victim by bystanders- which isn't automatically the case even if you are. And, we used to practice deception here as well. Nailing him while you are talking, or better yet while he is talking. We also trained at what point the situation has deteriorated enough that you are in immediate jeapordy and have to act. Lot more to it than just talking him down.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: Do you train what to say??

    If you train to "ki-ai" it's not a huge stretch to convert it to a phrase. Therefore, it should not adversely affect your reaction time.

    The point is not whether you are viewed as weak or not, but how witnesses to the event will convey what happened to the police. Often, peoples perspectives of events can become quite distorted. So, in order to further protect yourself you can add a functional verbal component to your repetoire.

    For instance: I like to use "Stop resisting." Forget the fact that the only resistance is where my fist is meeting their face. LOL. People will hear me tell the attacker to "stop" and that will be imbedded in their perspective of the conflict. So, when the cops ask "what happened?" The witness will say, "He kept telling the guy to stop." That in turn will affect the police's perspective on the event. It will help to convince them that even though your only injury may be swollen knuckles and the attacker is on a stretcher, that you did all you could to avoid/de-escelate/prevent the situation from happening.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Do you train what to say??

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson
    When you're talking you can not defend yourself. It takes a microsecond to disengage your mouth and re-engage your self defense mechanisims.
    That microsecond can get you hurt or killed on the street especially if weapons are involved.

    Actually the best time to hit a guy is when he is running his mouth. The time for using your tongue to diffuse a situation ends when your opponent is within range.
    Good post, you reminded me of a point I forgot to make...

    Another reason I prefer short, to the point commands is that you are not carrying on a conversation. It doesn't take too much brain-power to yell "Back" or "Stop." In fact, I frequently require my students to give verbal commands while they're hitting the shields or heavy-bag. To me, yelling "Stop" as you strike is not really any different than forcefull breathing or emitting a Kiai. You're accomplishing the same thing by giving a command that you do by breathing or making some dumb-sounding noise but you have the added benefit of actually being able to say later that "hey, I kept telling him to get back and to stop."

    I also agree with your other point (hitting them while they're talking). In fact, if I were to have to preemptively move on someone (either striking or deploying a weapon) I'd try to set them up by asking them a question. They may have no intention of answering or, my question may not even make any sense given the context of the situation. However, they're going to be distracted by the question giving me a small window of time to make my move.
    The test: "Will this work so that I can use it instinctively in vital combat against an opponent who is determined to prevent me from doing so, and who is striving to eliminate me by fair means or foul?" ~ Col. Rex Applegate

    Matt K.

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    Default Re: Do you train what to say??

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    If you train to "ki-ai" it's not a huge stretch to convert it to a phrase. Therefore, it should not adversely affect your reaction time.

    ...
    Don't ya just love cross-posting
    The test: "Will this work so that I can use it instinctively in vital combat against an opponent who is determined to prevent me from doing so, and who is striving to eliminate me by fair means or foul?" ~ Col. Rex Applegate

    Matt K.

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    Default Re: Do you train what to say??

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpotex View Post
    Don't ya just love cross-posting
    LOL. Great minds think alike! We do the same type drills.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Do you train what to say??

    Some good advice on this thread. Kenpo salute!
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    Default Re: Do you train what to say??

    Last year in my son Kindergarden class at St.Marks, I volunteered to teach their gym class. The first self-defense drill I had them line up in front of each other and one side would make funny faces and gestures at the other side. The other side of the line with their hands behind their back, in their big boy or girl voice had to say "Pleas stop!! I don't like what your doing, if you don't stop I will tell the teacher". Straight and too the point. This was just a building block for the children, the teacher said she heard used during the year in her class.

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