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Thread: Fighting to the death

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    nelson is offline
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    Default Fighting to the death

    Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

    Have you ever almost killed someone in a street fight? How did it happen and how did you feel afterwards?

    I've been involved in two situation in my life that I could have easly killed someone had not for the intervention of another individual. I had been attacked both times and simply "lost it" and over-reacted to the incident.
    I thank God that I was stopped from committing manslaughter if not murder by my actions.

    Have any of you had a similiar experience?

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    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    Never and I hope to God it never happens.

    However we have some Police officers here I know that may have some stories to share.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    I've been in a scrap or two, but never almost killed someone. They always lost conciousness before it went too far for some reason.... I dunno...
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    the only time I ever had to be physical was doing my job as a doorman.
    there was one time when i think i was a little over zealous with a particular gent, but it was because he threatened my family with violence.
    I decided to have a little fun with him in my anger, next thing i know, the other 5 guys are peeling me off of him..........i dont think i would have killed him though because there was no real threat...it was just me being PO'd.

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    nelson is offline
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    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

    My purpose in posting this thread was to see how many of us have "lost it" in a fight during our careers as a martial artist.

    I believe that there may be a few who read and post on this forum who have seldom, if ever, been in a real fight that could have led to a kill or get killed situation.

    It is EASY, way to easy to ACCIDENTALY kill someone in a fit of anger or a misapplied technique. I know this because it has happened to me in the anger of the moment. A back knuckle to the temple can kill as can a srtike to the nose or the eye socket. There is no predicting how much damage that a person can absorb before they are seriously or fatally injured. How many people have been sent to prison for killing or injuring someone in the course of defending their lives?

    The more knowledgeable you are the more that the law will hold you accountable.

    I know some of you will quote Mr. Parker's famous comment about being "judged by 12 or carried by six" and that;s your pet answer. The reality of the situation is quite different. I don't believe that Mr. Parker ever did any jail time for huritng someone on the street. The price of self defense should not be the loss of personal freedom.

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    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    Thank God not me.

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    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    I have always had a thing about losing control or being out of control.

    I can say I have never lost it to that extent that I was not somewhat aware of my actions.

    Yes I have punched through walls and broken furnature when I was younger but never took my aggression out on a person.

    Even once when I had my head cracked open in a fight all it did was make me focus.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    Nope, but I have found my self on the other side of the coin. I have been afraid that my life was in danger because I was untrained and felt incapable of defending myself.
    There is nothing so strong as gentleness, nothing so gentle as real strength.
    Unquestionably man has his will - but woman has her way! - Bruce Lee

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    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    this is why sparring (spontaneity) and meditation (awareness) are intregral and integrated components of my training regimen. if the day ever came that a life was put to risk, i trust that this training method would result in my preparedness to act appropriately and accept the result.
    "Rust Never Sleeps" - N.Young.

  10. #10
    kenpoteacher Guest

    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    Place: Long Beach, CA

    Job: Auto repossesor

    THe back of the registered owners truck is hooked up, the sun is slowly rising as my partner hoists the tail end up. Registered owner pokes his head and a shotgun out the second floor window. I duck back under the window as my partner runs to the cab of the truck to get his weapon.

    Registered owner disappears into the window and comes running down the stairs of his apartment. Liughts come on all over the place, people looking out windows as the managers from the front op the apartment complex come running back to yell at me claiming I broke their fence. I didn't break it, I took it off it's hinges cery queitly.

    Registered owner waves the weapon around and tells us to put the truck down. Nope, not gonna do it. Manage from front steps infront of the shotgun (it's pointed at her back) which is okay with me, then she pushes the weapon down. Cool, for the moment. Gun guy then raises the weapon across his chest and starts to walk towards my partner. I shadow him from his 3:30 to position myself with the truck between him and me.

    Registered owner then yells at my partner who now is carrying a weapon. I'm more worried about my partner shooting this guy than I am anything else. Manager lady runs back to front to call the cops. I slowly walk aounr the truck to try and talk gun guy down, but just as I get within touching distance he lowers the barrel at my partner.

    I stuck my left hand out to pin the barrel against his chest as my right foot kicked his left leg above the knee. I didn't pin the weapon on his centerline so he was able to slide the damn thing up th outside of my left arm and smack me above the hair line. He retracted the barrel and I see blood and stuff through my left eye. My glasses were broken and I was in a temporary state of shock. Gun guy and I stared at each other, weird moment, then my left hand grabbed the barrel (i think i threw another kick, but can't remember) as my right hand starts pummeling the left side of his face. He was down on one knee, but I can't remember how he got there to this day.

    I'm gripping the barrel in my left hand while my right hand is striking his left collar bone and bouncing into his left cheek. Not terribly effective, but he stayed down and couldn't get his left hand over to the gun.

    At this point I followd through his cheek and pivotted into a left close knee while my right hand grabbed the slide of the weapon. I jerked the weapon out of his hand, and at this point, my training wanted me to pivot back into a right close kneel and swing the stock of the weapon through his head. I didn't do it. During the striking phase of this my concious mind jumped out and I was seeing the conflict from the first and third person POV's. Instead of clocking the guy with the weapon my third person POV slammed back into me and rationality took over. I can remember sweeping hie right foot out so that he fell to his ass on the concrete. That sweep took me into the direction of my partners truck, who had pulled it out of the parking lot. He was a student of mine and he had his weapon holstered by then. I crossed out to get away as the gun guy gets up and runs up the stairs.

    We got the truck. I got the gun and a scar, and he got to go to county jail.

    THe human body is a fragile thing. Both parties get hurt in a combat situation. I had a concussion, a bruised palm and a knott on my left ewlbow that lasted for two weeks. Did I win? No. My training won versus his unloaded shotgun. But then we didn't know it was unloaded at the time.

    Was that under 1000 words? Hope fully this tale gets shorter as I get older.

    Clark

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    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    Good post kenpoteacher!

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    SifuDangeRuss is offline
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    Cool Re: Fighting to the death

    There was another thread recently on Breaking. I mention this here, because this is something I always consider in self-defense situations. I know, how much force I can generate and what potential a truly focused blow contains. I have watched rocks, blocks, bricks and boards disintegrate. If there is a positive longterm lesson in breaking, this may be it. Although in my trade, I find I have to use my martial arts training on a pretty regular basis, I find that it is by and large a disspationate affair. It's all mechanics and physics in action. I am aware of the damage I am capible of inflicting and know what it takes to control someone.

    Now if I was instead protecting my loved ones, then I can envision, allowing the controlled fury of a full-on rage, to empower my strikes. Passion is a finely wrought sword and as with all of our weapons, we should seek to understand and master it, as we would any other tool.
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  13. #13
    kenpoteacher Guest

    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    Dispationate? what are you talking about?

    Listen, this smacks (excuse the pun) of metaphysical garbage. If you have to utilize your training on a regular basis, you're in the wrong job/business/state of mind. Unless you are equating running a commercial srudio with a high stress/danger job like law enforcement, then you could use a reality check.

    After a confrontation, be it a heated exchange on the freeway over being cut off, or, hurting someone to protect yourself or others, there are emotional issues you go through. Why did he make me do that to him? Hey, it worked! What's gonna happen to me now? will I have to go to court?

    Dispationate? BAH!

    Clark

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    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpoteacher View Post
    Place: Long Beach, CA

    Job: Auto repossesor

    THe back of the registered owners truck is hooked up, the sun is slowly rising as my partner hoists the tail end up. Registered owner pokes his head and a shotgun out the second floor window. I duck back under the window as my partner runs to the cab of the truck to get his weapon.

    Registered owner disappears into the window and comes running down the stairs of his apartment. Liughts come on all over the place, people looking out windows as the managers from the front op the apartment complex come running back to yell at me claiming I broke their fence. I didn't break it, I took it off it's hinges cery queitly.

    Registered owner waves the weapon around and tells us to put the truck down. Nope, not gonna do it. Manage from front steps infront of the shotgun (it's pointed at her back) which is okay with me, then she pushes the weapon down. Cool, for the moment. Gun guy then raises the weapon across his chest and starts to walk towards my partner. I shadow him from his 3:30 to position myself with the truck between him and me.

    Registered owner then yells at my partner who now is carrying a weapon. I'm more worried about my partner shooting this guy than I am anything else. Manager lady runs back to front to call the cops. I slowly walk aounr the truck to try and talk gun guy down, but just as I get within touching distance he lowers the barrel at my partner.

    I stuck my left hand out to pin the barrel against his chest as my right foot kicked his left leg above the knee. I didn't pin the weapon on his centerline so he was able to slide the damn thing up th outside of my left arm and smack me above the hair line. He retracted the barrel and I see blood and stuff through my left eye. My glasses were broken and I was in a temporary state of shock. Gun guy and I stared at each other, weird moment, then my left hand grabbed the barrel (i think i threw another kick, but can't remember) as my right hand starts pummeling the left side of his face. He was down on one knee, but I can't remember how he got there to this day.

    I'm gripping the barrel in my left hand while my right hand is striking his left collar bone and bouncing into his left cheek. Not terribly effective, but he stayed down and couldn't get his left hand over to the gun.

    At this point I followd through his cheek and pivotted into a left close knee while my right hand grabbed the slide of the weapon. I jerked the weapon out of his hand, and at this point, my training wanted me to pivot back into a right close kneel and swing the stock of the weapon through his head. I didn't do it. During the striking phase of this my concious mind jumped out and I was seeing the conflict from the first and third person POV's. Instead of clocking the guy with the weapon my third person POV slammed back into me and rationality took over. I can remember sweeping hie right foot out so that he fell to his ass on the concrete. That sweep took me into the direction of my partners truck, who had pulled it out of the parking lot. He was a student of mine and he had his weapon holstered by then. I crossed out to get away as the gun guy gets up and runs up the stairs.

    We got the truck. I got the gun and a scar, and he got to go to county jail.

    THe human body is a fragile thing. Both parties get hurt in a combat situation. I had a concussion, a bruised palm and a knott on my left ewlbow that lasted for two weeks. Did I win? No. My training won versus his unloaded shotgun. But then we didn't know it was unloaded at the time.

    Was that under 1000 words? Hope fully this tale gets shorter as I get older.

    Clark
    Thanks for sharing your story.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    There was another thread recently on Breaking. I mention this here, because this is something I always consider in self-defense situations. I know, how much force I can generate and what potential a truly focused blow contains. I have watched rocks, blocks, bricks and boards disintegrate. If there is a positive longterm lesson in breaking, this may be it. Although in my trade, I find I have to use my martial arts training on a pretty regular basis, I find that it is by and large a disspationate affair. It's all mechanics and physics in action. I am aware of the damage I am capible of inflicting and know what it takes to control someone.

    Now if I was instead protecting my loved ones, then I can envision, allowing the controlled fury of a full-on rage, to empower my strikes. Passion is a finely wrought sword and as with all of our weapons, we should seek to understand and master it, as we would any other tool.
    Russ,

    You talking about the "no mind" phase of training / the journey?
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Exclamation Re: Fighting to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpoteacher View Post
    Dispationate? what are you talking about?

    Listen, this smacks (excuse the pun) of metaphysical garbage. If you have to utilize your training on a regular basis, you're in the wrong job/business/state of mind. Unless you are equating running a commercial srudio with a high stress/danger job like law enforcement, then you could use a reality check.

    After a confrontation, be it a heated exchange on the freeway over being cut off, or, hurting someone to protect yourself or others, there are emotional issues you go through. Why did he make me do that to him? Hey, it worked! What's gonna happen to me now? will I have to go to court?

    Dispationate? BAH!



    Clark
    Well...I bounce in a very busy night club, so yes, I get to use some of my martial arts training on a fairly regular basis. However, when I am breaking up a fight between two or more drunks, or armbarring a resistant troublemaker out the door, or restrainting someone til the local cops show up to take them off of my hands, then yes....dispassion is key. It's nothing personal and I don't make it personal. It's a job. My job is too keep other people from getting hurt by idiots who don't wanna play nice with others in the sand box. I don't look at it, as if these guys have personal vendettas against me or my family, as most don't. I can't tell you the number of guys who come back in and appologize pofusely for being drunken idiots who lost control. Some of these guys thank me, for restraining them, keeping them from getting seriously hurt or hurting someone else. If I got emotionally involved with each little altercation, then folks would be getting hurt. That is not my job, nor how I get my kicks.

    Now....if one of these imbeciles, accosted me outside the club and/or threatened myself or my family in some meaningful way, then all bets are off. That is when passion enters the playing field and the playing field transforms into a battleground and the safety switch is disengaged. Doe sthis help clarify my position? It has little to do with Metaphsical Nonsense and much to do with legal, moral and ethical obligations.
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    execkenpo is offline
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    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

    Have you ever almost killed someone in a street fight? How did it happen and how did you feel afterwards?

    I've been involved in two situation in my life that I could have easly killed someone had not for the intervention of another individual. I had been attacked both times and simply "lost it" and over-reacted to the incident.
    I thank God that I was stopped from committing manslaughter if not murder by my actions.

    Have any of you had a similiar experience?
    I have been training for over 20 years and have never had to use my fighting skills in a confrontation (knock on wood). Now I say fighting skills because I have used my training to avoid situations and also defuse a couple. IMHO I believe our training should help us to 'not fight'. Now my life and work don't place me in difficult situations on a regular basis (I don't bounce/police/security or visit bars all that often). I do think training makes us more aware (environmental awareness was something Parker advocated) and more able to deal with possible physical altercations. In ALL of the seminars. etc I have been to, the first rule is always RUN AWAY!

    If my family was in jeopardy and I could not remove them from the risk I would have no second thoughts about defending them, as per the Kenpo Creed left to us by SGM.

    I also think that our training gives us the skill to deal with the situation without going too far. If you lose it, maybe you need to look at other areas in your life and get help (no offence).

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    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    Well...I bounce in a very busy night club, so yes, I get to use some of my martial arts training on a fairly regular basis. However, when I am breaking up a fight between two or more drunks, or armbarring a resistant troublemaker out the door, or restrainting someone til the local cops show up to take them off of my hands, then yes....dispassion is key. It's nothing personal and I don't make it personal. It's a job. My job is too keep other people from getting hurt by idiots who don't wanna play nice with others in the sand box. I don't look at it, as if these guys have personal vendettas against me or my family, as most don't. I can't tell you the number of guys who come back in and appologize pofusely for being drunken idiots who lost control. Some of these guys thank me, for restraining them, keeping them from getting seriously hurt or hurting someone else. If I got emotionally involved with each little altercation, then folks would be getting hurt. That is not my job, nor how I get my kicks.

    Now....if one of these imbeciles, accosted me outside the club and/or threatened myself or my family in some meaningful way, then all bets are off. That is when passion enters the playing field and the playing field transforms into a battleground and the safety switch is disengaged. Doe sthis help clarify my position? It has little to do with Metaphsical Nonsense and much to do with legal, moral and ethical obligations.
    Good point. I think you have to have a "switch" you can cut on. Most of us don't go around actively looking to hurt others. Civilized folk just don't behave that way, so we have to have a "switch" we can cut on/off when necessary. I believe that comes from reaching the "spontaneous stage."
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    I agree with the 'turning the switch on' idea. When you can be dispassionate (neutral) to the attacker, you will likely only do what is immediately necessary to take control of the situation. You'll do the minimum.

    If someone is threatening you or your family personally, then the switch comes on, mama bear comes out, and all bets are off.

    It's not necessarily the best thing, but I think it's how it works.

    --Amy

    P.S. No, I've never almost killed somone, but my dad said it happened to him once. He had to be pulled off a guy or he would've. I guess my dad used to be a hot head. Hard to imagine him to lacking in control.
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    Default Re: Fighting to the death

    I had a great kenpoist tell me once that you have to de-humanize your attacker. You simply must see them as nothing more than a series of targets because if you don't you will naturally hesitate. And, to quote another great kenpoist, "He who hesitates, meditates in the horizontal position."
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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