Who's more dangerous?

[nelson]

This question is addressed to all of my Kenpo brothers and sisters who have worked in a crowd security setting.

When you're looking for trouble to break out in a crowd who do you tend to focus on? Do you look for the big mouths or load talkers in anticipation of a possible budding confrontation or is their a potentially more dangerous foe that can be overlooked if your not careful?

I ask this for a reason as I was told by my deceased sensei to look for as less obvious potential troublemaker. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

[Rob Broad]

Always look for the person who is trying not to be noticed.

[kenpotex]

I think this can go both ways...The truly dangerous ones don't want to attact attention. They're going to want to maximize their advantage by not being noticed.

OTOH, you can't just ignore the "loudmouths" because they are the type to look for trouble.

[amylong]

I think this can go both ways...The truly dangerous ones don't want to attact attention. They're going to want to maximize their advantage by not being noticed.

OTOH, you can't just ignore the "loudmouths" because they are the type to look for trouble.

I agree. I think it also depends on what kind of trouble you're looking for. Are you looking for the 'start a fight' kind of person or the sociopath going to kidnap or kill someone?

--Amy

[SifuDangeRuss]

What ?

Someone call my name ? I was sleepin'.

*...Stretches...yaaaaaaawwwwwwwns....and salutes....*

I'm DangeRuss...at your service.

(What a silly question, surely no one can be more me than me?...and further..who'd want ta be?)

[nelson]

Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

Good points from all and thanks for responding to my question.

I was taught to watch for the quiet one while " babysitting" the loudmouth. The socio-path might be nursing a drink in a corner somewhere until he witnesses his wife walking in with another man or woman. The situation could then get explosive in a hurry.

My old instructor considered club work to be basic training for all would be warriors. The development of observational skills was also a talent to be highly cultivated.

How important do you all think it is to be "street smart" as a fighter?

Does the practice of dojo fighting by "Queensbury" rules hurt or help you in a kill or get killed situation?

[Rob Broad]

More good questions Nelson. While some may view having rules in the school may hurt you, I tend to disagree. It is living by those rules we have accepted into our lives that seperates us from the sick animals that choose to do harm to others. Occasionally you have to push yourself to see exactly where your thresh holds are before you cross your line.

Nelson said,"I was taught to watch for the quiet one while " babysitting" the loudmouth. The socio-path might be nursing a drink in a corner somewhere until he witnesses his wife walking in with another man or woman. The situation could then get explosive in a hurry."

This is the way I was taught as well.

[SifuDangeRuss]

Nelson...

In truth, working in that kind of environment...you learn to watch everybody. You learn to pay attention to the atmosphere and become acutely aware when tension begins building. After a while, you become pretty proficient at bein' able to pick out which ones are most likely to start rockin' the boat. However, you can't Black Dot focus on them so exclusively that you miss subtle cues about the quiet one, as well. Last Saturday night, we had a woman in the club, to most of the other guys, she was no concern whatsoever. She sat alone, at a table and drank only water. However, she was watching her significant other, who was mackin' on some other little girly-girl. Both of them were oblivious to the quiet girl drinking her water and observing. I watched her. Near the end of the night she rose with a purpose....and went to cut-off the girly-girl who'd been smoochin' on her s/o. Fortunately, I was Johnny on the Spot and other than some rather harsh words, it didn't escalate into anything serious. If she hadn't been watched ? Who knows. However, the same evening, I caught one of the other bouncer's eyes and told him to keep his eyes on another boysterous, loud, heavydrinking dumbass. Sure enough, he belted someone right in the middle of the dancefloor. It was stopped, reasonably quickly, but he was the squeaky wheel. So it pays to be aware of both of these, but not to the exclusion of the overall picture.

[kenpogoat]

In my experience the quiet guy nursing his drink watching his loud mouth friend stir it up is the threat. The loudmouth draws attention to himself thus all the attention. This allows the quiet calm person to act with out eyes on them. By the time most people no something happened it's over. How's that song go let the bodies hit the floor.

[nelson]

Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

Do you feel that you learn to develop almost a "sixth sense" when working in a club situation?

I remember one incident where I had been watching a couple of guys all evening as the situation grew more menacing between them. Right before the first punch was thrown I went flying into action and busted up the fight before it got started. One of the club patrons expressed shock on how I had reponded so quickly before trouble occured. He asked me "How did you know what was going to happen?" Honestly I'm not sure how I did other than that I had developed an instinct for potential trouble.

Do you encourage your students to practice this type of work and if so at what stage of their training?

[ronin6]

Nelson and all,

I did my time in bars / clubs but also in a prison enviornment. For the most part the cons and the people at the bars share the same M.O. The loud mouthes want the attention while the danger lurks out of sight. I've found in my own experience that the quiet observer is usually the one to worry about. For the most part he is the one in control of the loud mouth. Well, usually the only reason the loud mouth is the way he is figuring he will get bailed out by his buddy. I normally took notice of the loud mouth's friends and dealt with them first then with the squawk box! It was always easier to difuse the situation that way... Then again things could go wrong and find yourself in a mess, but that's for another story...

[Billy Lear]

This question is addressed to all of my Kenpo brothers and sisters who have worked in a crowd security setting.

When you're looking for trouble to break out in a crowd who do you tend to focus on? Do you look for the big mouths or load talkers in anticipation of a possible budding confrontation or is their a potentially more dangerous foe that can be overlooked if your not careful?

I ask this for a reason as I was told by my deceased sensei to look for as less obvious potential troublemaker. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

I've seen everything from the loudmouth that threw an empty bottle accross a crowded dance floor, to a 5'4" quiet female that knifed her boyfriend in the face with a broken bottle. My advice... Look at them all.

(By the way, the girl I mentioned came back to the club 3-weeks later with the same guy.)

[Celtic_Crippler]

I think in terms of environmental awareness there are many things to consider regardless of where you are. You should try and be aware of the people in your immediate surroundings; their body language, what they're saying and how they're saying it, facial expressions, and general behavior.

[kenpotex]

I agree. I think it also depends on what kind of trouble you're looking for. Are you looking for the 'start a fight' kind of person or the sociopath going to kidnap or kill someone?

--Amy

In my experience from working security and from bouncing, the ones that think they have to prove something, the loudmouth types are the ones that look for trouble. I'm not saying these types should be ignored or underestimated, but they're not nearly as "bad" as the other type.

moving on...y'all may want to put on your waders, it's about to get deep

You bring up an interesting point with regard to sociopaths, etc. I think these "types" operate on both sides of the spectrum so to speak. On one side, you've got your professional criminals, serial-killers, and so on. On the other side you've got the other type of professionals (elite military, some, but very few, LEO's and martial-artists, etc.) who operate under the same tactical principles as the bad guys. For example, using deception and ambush rather than by meeting the threat "head-on" or being overt about their intentions.
Really, when you look at it this way, you could make the argument that instead of being at opposite ends of the spectrum, they're merely mirror-images of each other who only differ because of their worldview or their moral compass.
I've known a few guys of this type (Army Special-Forces, Marine Recon, etc.) who were the type of guys that you wouldn't look at twice if you passed them on the street. However, God help the person that thought their unassuming appearance and demeanor meant that they were a good target, or that they had any qualms about acting decisively.

[nelson]

Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

How would you deal with the nightmare scenario of a whacked out former SF person on Meth?

Pain compliance does not work very well on people under Meth's influence and they can exhibit almost superhuman strength. You would be likely attacked in the eye's, throat, joints, etc. I would want to deliver as many shots as I could long range and would avoid grappling until I felt it was safe to move close.

Other than by breaking bones and rendering them unconcious what could you do? Does a person on meth have the ability to retain consciousness after a head shot for example? Can you use a choke or strangle without worrying that you might kill them?

When you put them down what's theW best way to hold them until the cops come if you don't have hand cuffs? Would you use an Ju Jitsu type arm or leg lock or would another method work better?

[The Kai]

I cannot speak for people with experinence in a prison type situation, but for a bar-watch the loud mouths. The time frame is short, where the quiet bomb types don't burn enough of theie fuse.

Anytime alchol is invovled the dumb ass factor is hugh!

But also keep your eye on everyone.

Specifically I watch the dance floor, and the bar (this is where you get a mixing of groups and a drive to meet the opposite sex)
Also, watch the pool tables (you;d be surprised how many guys waould kick out someone's teeth over a 75 cent game).

Bouncing can be exhasting watching, but trying to look like you are not watching too much!~

[Celtic_Crippler]

Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

How would you deal with the nightmare scenario of a whacked out former SF person on Meth?

Pain compliance does not work very well on people under Meth's influence and they can exhibit almost superhuman strength. You would be likely attacked in the eye's, throat, joints, etc. I would want to deliver as many shots as I could long range and would avoid grappling until I felt it was safe to move close.

Other than by breaking bones and rendering them unconcious what could you do? Does a person on meth have the ability to retain consciousness after a head shot for example? Can you use a choke or strangle without worrying that you might kill them?

When you put them down what's theW best way to hold them until the cops come if you don't have hand cuffs? Would you use an Ju Jitsu type arm or leg lock or would another method work better?

If someone does not react to pain then you have no choice but to take other measures. Pain usually discourages further attacks, but if pain doesn't work your options are limited; you have to break bones or render them unconcious.

Regardless of how "high" someone is their physiology and anatomy are still the same. Break a collar bone and they can't use an arm. No matter how bad they want to. Joint manipulations and holds rely on pain and discomfort for control, if they don't feel pain then you have to resort to more drastic measures.
IMHO

[nelson]

Dear "Crippler":

I'm with on the collar bone brother but I'd be worried about accidently severing an artery from the bone fragments. My intent is to incapacitate without causing severe injury if possible.

I wonder if a knife hand to the neck followed by a vigorous kick to the abdomen might be a good option for a meth upped bad guy. Is there a preference for striking the neck as to what side would cause the most disabling reaction?

Have you ever just reached and grabbed the collar bone ito establish control of your opponents body? I've played around with this technique but I'm not sure how it might work in various body types and sizes. I have a 370# "kid" that I'm training part time. The next time he shows up I'm going to see how easy it is to grab his collar bone.

Thanks again for all of your comments!

[Martin Seck]

This question is addressed to all of my Kenpo brothers and sisters who have worked in a crowd security setting.

When you're looking for trouble to break out in a crowd who do you tend to focus on? Do you look for the big mouths or load talkers in anticipation of a possible budding confrontation or is their a potentially more dangerous foe that can be overlooked if your not careful?

I ask this for a reason as I was told by my deceased sensei to look for as less obvious potential troublemaker. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Funny thing. I was a bouncer for several years in my mid 20's and I always watched out for the quiet ones too.

One normal night at the bar I was rotated near the stage near the bathrooms, a regular looking guy in cowboy boots and a jacket was in front of me waiting for his buddy to come out of the bathroom. He comes out and starts talking to someone else and his buddy leans back and slowly taps him on the opposite shoulder with his foot in perfect kicking form. Mind you he had boots on and had perfect control.

I said WOW I never would have guessed that. Even though he was calm and just there to have a good time it taught me a lesson that you should never under estimate anyone. Would have hated to end up on the other side of those boots back then.

[Blackcatbonz]

I was a doorman at a club for a while.
The one thing i learned, watch everyone. I think the biggest danger any 1 person can face is 2 or more other people.
Most guys have friends that cant keep their hands (or feet) to themselves and will not hesitate to help out a buddy by kicking or punching a guy when they're down.
A doorman's best friend is more doormen, always be sure to have a good plan of action should things go south.
A guy can be high as a kite, if there are 4 or 5 guys dragging him down, he wont last long.
You can't go around severely injuring people just because they wont listen, that's cause for lawsuit's.
I quit doing it because of all of the BS involved......and going to court to be a witness at a fellow doorman's assault trial was one time too many.