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Thread: Pressure Point Training

  1. #21
    SifuDangeRuss is offline
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    Default Re: Pressure Point Training

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    Those that do Pressure Points for Knock outs follow what is called the Cycle of Destruction. Since different Merridians are different elements there is a sequence to stiking.

    Water puts out Fire
    Fire heats Metal to mould it
    Metal cuts Wood
    Wood can be used to hold back Earth
    Earth dams up Water

    So depending on what element your starting pp is you then follow the cycle of destruction to the next elemental point, followed by the 3rd. When doing knock outs you never use more than 3 points.
    But I have Elemental armor that is + 6 against these types of attacks.
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    Default Re: Pressure Point Training

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    But I have Elemental armor that is + 6 against these types of attacks.
    Not every thread has to degenerate into a thread that should be in the humor section.

    Rob Broad
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  3. #23
    kenpoep is offline
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    Default Re: Pressure Point Training

    I have been training in kyusho for 2 years now, and my experience tells me that kenpo techniques have to be pretty much modified (reagrding targets as well as sequences) in order to be effective in terms of pressure points.

    I am realy curious to see Mr Chapel's work on this subject. I read that he had changed the techniques pretty drastically , which would make sense.
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    Default Re: Pressure Point Training

    Anyone have any clips demonstrating any of this?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

  5. #25
    kenpoep is offline
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    Default Re: Pressure Point Training

    I would like to mention three important differences between kenpo and pressure point self defense:

    1/ Kenpo sequences are usually performed too fast to lead to "pressure point knock outs". In PP KO, there must be a definite interval of time between strike 1 - 2 and 3. Going too fast and therefore too superficialy cancels the effect.

    2/ the way of striking in PP KO is different than in kenpo and karate.
    In PP ko, distance between point of origin of the strike and the target must be small. There must be a fast acceleration in a very short distance. Speed is not important, but acceleration is.

    3/ Kenpo techniques often attack vital targets, like groin, eyes, etc, while kyusho doesn't. Vital points are different than pressure points.
    Ther is an instinctive reaction to protect vital targets when attacked.. On the other hand, pressure point targets are not instinctively protected.
    This has important strategic consequences.

    4/ grabbing the wrist is an important facilitator of kos.

    This has consequences:

    EXAMPLE on delayed sword:

    1/ It would be better to grab the wrist with the left hand than just deflect it.
    2/ instead of the groin, target 2 should be the interior of the opponent's left leg, above the knee.
    3/ the shop to the neck should not start from the usual point of origin of the strike (in the upper quadrant corner) , but should start closer to the neck.

    Then, a seemingly light strike to the neck would easily lead to a ko., with no apparent injury on the opponent. (his balls would be stilll ok and his neck not broken).
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    Default Re: Pressure Point Training

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpoep View Post

    EXAMPLE on delayed sword:

    1/ It would be better to grab the wrist with the left hand than just deflect it.
    2/ instead of the groin, target 2 should be the interior of the opponent's left leg, above the knee.
    3/ the shop to the neck should not start from the usual point of origin of the strike (in the upper quadrant corner) , but should start closer to the neck.

    Then, a seemingly light strike to the neck would easily lead to a ko., with no apparent injury on the opponent. (his balls would be stilll ok and his neck not broken).
    1) Attempting to grab the wrist drastically reduces your margin for error. It also would drastically impact the anatomical positioning of the attacker. You're also counting on the attacker not being strong enough to power through your catch attempt. You also state to grab with your left hand. In this technique that would mean using the hand furthest away from the attacker to attempt a grab with which doesn't seem very logical to me. Don't get me wrong, my sifu often calls me "sticky hands" because I do like to grab hold of folks, lol. (must be that jiu-jitsu background) But I don't see how "grabbing" would be "better" in regards to this particular technique and the supposed advantage you are proposing.

    2) That is an excellent target. One I consider a "sweet spot" because it is very sensitive and you can really cause some pain here. Again, this will impact anatomical position though. Striking this target will affect the width zone more in this case as the attackers legs would likely be spread wider by your kick. And that, of course, will affect available targets for your next strike.

    3) At what point would you adjust your right hand to position it closer? Are you implying that since you control the attackers right arm with your left (because you grabbed it in step one) that you pull them into the right sword hand strike?? Point of origin dictates that action should begin from the root position, since you did not initially defend with the right hand, where exactly is it? If it is already checking high for instance, why would you do an additional move to move it closer to the target when it would already have to move through that same space along the line of entry toward the target anyway?

    I apologize for all the questions but you lost me and I would really like to understand more about this perspective on pressure points.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

  7. #27
    kenpoep is offline
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    Default Re: Pressure Point Training

    quote:1) Attempting to grab the wrist drastically reduces your margin for error. It also would drastically impact the anatomical positioning of the attacker. You're also counting on the attacker not being strong enough to power through your catch attempt. You also state to grab with your left hand. In this technique that would mean using the hand furthest away from the attacker to attempt a grab with which doesn't seem very logical to me. Don't get me wrong, my sifu often calls me "sticky hands" because I do like to grab hold of folks, lol. (must be that jiu-jitsu background) But I don't see how "grabbing" would be "better" in regards to this particular technique and the supposed advantage you are proposing.

    answer: 1/ in kyusho, grabbing wrist points are interesting, (although not obligatory) in order to inflict pain at the wrist and drain energy from the opponent. When done properly on lung points at the wrist coupled with heart 8, in a twisting manner, it is very painful. It is not possible to grab these points (on his right hand) with your right hand. If you are starting the technique in attention stance, the left hand is closer to his right hand than your right hand.

    quote 2) That is an excellent target. One I consider a "sweet spot" because it is very sensitive and you can really cause some pain here. Again, this will impact anatomical position though. Striking this target will affect the width zone more in this case as the attackers legs would likely be spread wider by your kick. And that, of course, will affect available targets for your next strike.

    answer 2: it is an excellent target, but because it it is a vital target, it will probably lead to a defensive reflex from the opponent.
    Kicking above the knee will indeed widen his base more than the kick to the groin, the latter influencing more his height. In consequence, you are right to say that it will affect the chosen target on the next shot.
    Kicking above the knee will open either the right side or the back side of his neck. There are easily attainable large intestine points on the side and Gall bladder 20 on the back.

    quote 3) At what point would you adjust your right hand to position it closer? Are you implying that since you control the attackers right arm with your left (because you grabbed it in step one) that you pull them into the right sword hand strike?? Point of origin dictates that action should begin from the root position, since you did not initially defend with the right hand, where exactly is it? If it is already checking high for instance, why would you do an additional move to move it closer to the target when it would already have to move through that same space along the line of entry toward the target anyway?


    The root position would be the position in front of you chest (imagine you started from the salute position)

    Indeed you can pull his arm, which will make the point of origin of the chop closer to the target. If not, you will have to slowly get closer to the target and than violently accelerate just before touching it (following indeed the same line of entry but with speed changes).

    The pain that you inflicted before should give you time for these small adjustements. If not, just strike anyway, but the effect will be less impressive.




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    Default Re: Pressure Point Training

    We had some great conversation going n this thread lets see if we can continue it.

    How many of the PP enthusiaists follow the Dillman method, how the TCM methodology or a more traditional Kyusho method.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

  9. #29
    kenpoep is offline
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    Default Re: Pressure Point Training

    I follow the Dillman method.

    Makes me see tagets differently than before.

    Another instance: crossing talon

    Instead of stiking just above the elbow (TW11), it has much better effect to stike on TW12 , betwwen the elbow and the shoulder.

    Striking TW12 releases the elbow, even if the opponent resists.

    When you strike TW11 , the opponent can resist and bend his arm if he wants to. It is not the case with TW12.

    If you still choose to target TW11, the best method to prevent the opponent from bending the arm is not by striking but by rubbing with the knuckles.
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  10. #30
    execkenpo is offline
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    Default Re: Pressure Point Training

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    We had some great conversation going n this thread lets see if we can continue it.

    How many of the PP enthusiaists follow the Dillman method, how the TCM methodology or a more traditional Kyusho method.
    My pp instructor is certified through Dillman but he incorporates the TCM theory into what we are doing. Incidentally he is also a Doctor of Accupunture so brings a lot of that knowledge into play. He doesn't certify via seminars but has a series of regular classes with a set curriculum in order to ensure the information he is providing is structured and consistent.

    I too look at kenpo techniques a little differently than I did prior to my pp training, thoughwhen teaching I do not incorporate the kyusho unless it doen't modify the technique,,,ie. when blocking on the inside of the arm I aim for the midpoint of the forearm on the thumb side which is a pressure point and instruct my students to do the same. Striking this spot with two way action toward the thumb weakens, and can numb the hand thereby incerasing the effectiveness of the block.

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    Default Re: Pressure Point Training

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpoep View Post
    I would like to mention three important differences between kenpo and pressure point self defense:

    1/ Kenpo sequences are usually performed too fast to lead to "pressure point knock outs". In PP KO, there must be a definite interval of time between strike 1 - 2 and 3. Going too fast and therefore too superficialy cancels the effect.

    2/ the way of striking in PP KO is different than in kenpo and karate.
    In PP ko, distance between point of origin of the strike and the target must be small. There must be a fast acceleration in a very short distance. Speed is not important, but acceleration is.

    3/ Kenpo techniques often attack vital targets, like groin, eyes, etc, while kyusho doesn't. Vital points are different than pressure points.
    Ther is an instinctive reaction to protect vital targets when attacked.. On the other hand, pressure point targets are not instinctively protected.
    This has important strategic consequences.

    4/ grabbing the wrist is an important facilitator of kos.
    I must say fomr my short foirst-hand experience of Sub Level 4 kenpo, that it does in fact address all 4 of these concerns. Well, the first 3 anyways... look up Doc's usage fo the term "monitoring" for example.

  12. #32
    execkenpo is offline
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    Default Re: Pressure Point Training

    It really isn't too difficult to modify a standard kenpo technique to make it work with pressure points, even without changing the 'flavour' of the technique. Some vital points are also pressure point, for instance Conception 16 is the xiphoid process. There are numerous examples thoughout the system.

    As for kenpo sequences being performed too fast, that is up to the individual. If for instance one does five swords at high speed with the same tempo throughout the move it really doesn't work as well as intended from a kenpo perspective. Thinking about reactionary positions,,,if I follow the uppercut with my left hand strike before allowing my opponent to react to the uppercut it really doesn't 'flow' well. By altering our tempo when doing kenpo, even without using pp the moves work better. Take any kenpo technique and play with your tempo and timing of strikes keeping in mind both pp principles and simple body mechanics. It works better.

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    kenpoep is offline
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    Default Re: Pressure Point Training

    here is a video of a pressure point seminar I organised this week-end.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqh8Vxdt_R4
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