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Thread: Jumping/ flying kicks

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    Default Jumping/ flying kicks

    Kenpo doesn’t seem to have a lot of jumping/ flying kicks (that I know of) anyway. But I’m sure most of you know some and can perform them quite well. My question is this, other than show where would you use them? Like the flying side kick, granted it looks very cool when done correctly. I just don’t see it being used on the street for self defense. I was working on a jumping round house kick with my heavy bag. I noticed for a second I was totally open to a strike until I made contact. Even then I was not real solid being in the air then on one foot.

    Sorry if this has been asked before, I just noticed how open I was and wanted to ask the experts.
    Last edited by hemi; 11-05-2006 at 03:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    They can be used if someone is trying to sweep you. They are a good training tool to help build explosive power. If you can generation power in the air, you will have plenty when on the ground.
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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    I was once told the flying/jumping kicks may have been used to knock people off of a horse, but that is just what I heard.

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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by H.K.E View Post
    I was once told the flying/jumping kicks may have been used to knock people off of a horse, but that is just what I heard.
    They ofetn tell students this in Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do. But unless you have a way of being elevated before the take off or something to assist your lift(a small hill, a box) it would be very difficult to unhorse someone.
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    Smile Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    Recently on PRIDE they showed a match between Arona and Mauricio Rua (I believe?) and the opening technique...was a double-flying-spinning-crescent kick. It was incredibly cool to see someone (a heavyweight no less) throw something like that in a pro fight.

    Although not particularly street practical, I manage to pull these types of kicks off in tournements occaisionally.

    However, there are some flying/jumping kicks that do have practical street-type applications. For example, adding a front Chicken Kick (Forward then rear leg) as a suffix, to most any technique where you end with one leg forward between your opponents, and deliver the first kick as a front scoop, to bring your oponent forward and down, into the second snap kick.
    I have had cause to use both front and (believe it or not) side chicken kicks, as a means of sending one opponent across the room, so I could deal with another using the good ol' Divide & Conquer theory.

    Not neccessarily something to have on the easiest access shelf of special weapons, but don't completely discount them either.
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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    Never really cared for them. I used to work out with some TKDers, a few of which could every once in a while pull off a good flyer. But I allways thought their limmited utility wasn't worth the effort or time to train the jumping kicks. Once airborne, your base is gone and your mobility is pretty much limmited to one direction- down. Not a good situation to be in if your kick doesn't get the job done.

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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Once airborne, your base is gone and your mobility is pretty much limmited to one direction- down. Not a good situation to be in if your kick doesn't get the job done.

    Dan C
    Thatís what I was thinking; when I was in the air I noticed that if I were kicking at a person. That kick seems to become a gamble. Iím betting I can make contact then hit the ground and regroup before they can step in and punch. Or worse yet grab me and knock me to the ground. Without a base to stabilize myself I am going to be easy to knock off balance.

    Just my .02
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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    I remember when i first started learning jumping kicks I had to really analyze my base mechanics of each individual kick. I also know that all my base kicks became much stronger from learn how to throw them while in the air. I learned a lot about defending against ariel kicks while learning how to throw jumping kicks. While not very practical at times they hold many valuable lessons.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    SifuDangeRuss is offline
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    Smile Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    Dan...

    No doubt about it being a totally committed technique. I can't argue that, but there are ways of setting it up, to help minimize risks. As I said, definately not my GO TO first choice in any situation and granted the ROI (Return on Investment) of the probability you will ever use it vs the amount of effort you need to put in to achieve relative mastery is pretty low.

    However, one could use that argument so say that many of the techniques we learn fall into that category. I have had this debate with some of my larger students.

    "Why do I hafta learn this kick, sifu ? I'm not designed to fly."

    There are benefits to learning the balance inherent is the physics of these techniques that can be translated to benefit other techniques. I would liken it to many of the techniques in Form 5. Most people feel that many of the techniques and awkward transitions in this form are unwieldly and they would never use them. However, isn't that largely the point of that form? To teach you how to manuever and respond from awkward and unorthadox body positions and angles of attack? Likewise, learning to land properly, and how to respond/react if you don't is one of the benefits of practicing flying techniques.
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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    Hemi- YOUR Kempo does not have many maybe Certain styles do- Kara-Ho Kempo features MANY high jump/ spinning and jump Spinning kicks-Used as a tool as previously mentioned to develop torque, balance, and explosive power (Like Plyometrics).

    Professor Chow saw Grandmaster Kuoha (TKD background) doing high kicks and jump-spinning kicks in the 70's and insisted on re-working them and adding them into Kara-Ho. I really enjoy them but use them as strength building exercises rather than self-defense.

    I believe these help a student to gain superior balance, flexibility, and leg strength- If you can kick high well, then your low kicks will be outstanding. Besides one never knows when he/she may need to unmount the enemy off a horse, likely a "high-horse" in today's society! :0

    Cheers Hemi and everyone else!
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    Mr. Brad, DangeRuss and Dianhsuhe.

    Thanks for the valuable insight, thatís why I ask questions here. I guess I spent too much time lately concerned with what if any street use of these kicks and not enough thinking about the teaching value of these kicks.

    I have to admit I love doing some of these kicks, I guess itís a through back from my days in TKD as a youngení.
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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    Hey Hemi! I TOO started in TKD (when I was 19 or so) we have a bit in common!

    It is a good thread...You ALWAYS post good threads- I remember one about your promotion where you had missed a form? I am continually impressed by your attitude and demeanor on this board!

    Have a great week-
    James
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    Some good points, guys, about training the flyers. And I don't mean to say they don't work. I spent a couple of hours in the dentists chair once due to an airborn kick in "moderate contact to the head" sparing. So, I'm not arguing that you shouldn't train junmping kicks- just that everyone has to set their own priorities on what they train, and for their own reasons. Good discussion.

    Dan C
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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianhsuhe View Post
    Hey Hemi! I TOO started in TKD (when I was 19 or so) we have a bit in common!

    It is a good thread...You ALWAYS post good threads- I remember one about your promotion where you had missed a form? I am continually impressed by your attitude and demeanor on this board!

    Have a great week-
    James
    Dianhsue, Wow thank you for the complements. That means a lot too me. I am always coming up with questions, but I tend to sit on some of them for a day or two. I donít want to ask some silly question but if I donít ask I canít learn.

    As for the TKD yeah I am sitting on the fence, Iím thinking after I attain 1st Black in Kenpo since Iíll have a min of two years too be ready for 2nd Deg test I might cross train in TKD. Well if I get my instructors blessing that is.
    A black belt covers 2" of your butt. Covering the rest is soley up to you

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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by 2004hemi View Post
    As for the TKD yeah I am sitting on the fence, Iím thinking after I attain 1st Black in Kenpo since Iíll have a min of two years too be ready for 2nd Deg test I might cross train in TKD. Well if I get my instructors blessing that is.

    What about TKD makes you want to cross train?
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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarnyk View Post
    What about TKD makes you want to cross train?

    Well Kenpo is my first love, my base art and will always be so. But in my limited experience in this style we tend to focus more on hands. I love that aspect of Kenpo. Kicks seem to be an important part but not the main focus and up till now we have worked the standard basic kicks. In saying that I am in no way taking anything away from Kenpo and I canít see myself not studying this style.

    In thinking about cross training in TKD, down the road after 1st Dan maybe even after 2nd for a few reasons. One I like the idea that that style seems to focus more on kicks. I also donít plan to gain high rank as I am more interested in bringing anything I can back to my base art Kenpo. Not so much the blocks and strikes with the hands as Kenpo gives me so much to work with , I may never fully understand all the intricate details. But this is where I would need to wait on a decision until I get to that point. I donít want to take away from my practice and study of Kenpo. I canít fully devote myself to TKD nor am I looking at another style like a Kung Fu of some sort. I wonít take the time necessary to really understand that style. I just want to enhance what I pick up from Kenpo and one day God willing help me to be a better instructor to my students.

    And as for finding a TKD school I have a few with in a 5 miles radius of my house.
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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    Having sparred against someTKD people in the past I can see how someone who trains jumping kicks to that degree can use them successfully, I still wouldn't even think about trying them on the street. It's one thing to use them in the ring with rules but really, the groin is a beautiful target and we kenpoists aren't shy about going there.

    I agree that they can be a great training tool for students.

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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by 2004hemi View Post
    I like the idea that that style seems to focus more on kicks. ... I canít fully devote myself to TKD nor am I looking at another style like a Kung Fu of some sort. I wonít take the time necessary to really understand that style. I just want to enhance what I pick up from Kenpo and one day God willing help me to be a better instructor to my students.

    And as for finding a TKD school I have a few with in a 5 miles radius of my house.
    hemi, I'd suggest you find some of the TKD folk in your area that are seriouse and don't mind a little contact and work out with them on the side. The ones I've run into love to work with AKers and share ideas and techniques. They'll be more than happy to teach you their kicks.

    As for studying TKD full time, I doubt you'd get as much out of it than just working out with some seriouse practitioners. Everything they do is in AK already. The application is where you'll get the most from them. And, they can really apply those kicks! At least, that's been my experience.

    Dan C
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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    Grapplers love it when folks throw these kicks at them. Sure, they might look nice, but how practical is it to not only give up half your base (kicking above the waste) but giving up your entire base (leaving the ground voluntarily.)

    They're good for show, demo's, sparring, or for playing around in class but not much else IMHO. Sorry...not a flying kick fan.
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    Default Re: Jumping/ flying kicks

    Celtic- We covered all that already.... Don't use them in the street> CHECK!

    Hemi- In my opinion one of the most common mistakes from folks in the Martial Arts is leaving and doing something else when they get their 1st degree. Shodan means you have mastered the basics (and the word Master is used liberally) You are just getting to the good stuff at 1st degree. Just finding your feet so to speak...

    I know that in Kara-Ho Kempo there are 3 sets of techniques taught, a bit like 3 different levels of thinking. The stuff I am working on for 3rd Dan is exponentially more difficult and beautiful than what I was working for 1st or even 2nd dan. makes it look almost simple (almost ).

    I am a fan of cross-training but getting a solid foundation in one art does not usually mean Shodan, IMHO- WHen I got my Shodan I was just a kid with an idea of what kempo was, if I had left to go back to TKD or something new I would have ended up a "stew", trying to remember which techniques and habits were from which art. A simple side-thrust kick has about 9 differences between TKD and Kara-Ho, I'd probably get both styles kicks wrong! LOL

    Learn a few of the challengin TKD kicks on the side and stay within kenpo for awhile....Just my .02
    The above is just my opinion.

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