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Thread: The point of all training

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    Default The point of all training

    Dear Kenpo brother's and sister's:

    I ran across this quote in Mitsugi Saotome's book called "Akido and the Harmony of Nature" that I'd like to bring to the forum for comment.

    "To discover your spiritual gravity and transcend your aggressive attitude are the point of all trainig."

    What do you all think about this concept?

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    Honestly I think fortune cookie mumbo jumbo. I study in order to defend myself and my loved ones.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    Honestly I think fortune cookie mumbo jumbo. I study in order to defend myself and my loved ones.
    Agreed.

    "Rant mode" ON:

    I personally feel that many martial-artists place too much value on the art (internal/character aspects) and not enough on the martial (mindset, combative skills, etc.). If all you're interested in is character-development, patience, whatever; there are other avenues you can pursue. Go join a sports team, learn to play an instrument, get a dog. While character development is not a bad thing by any means, I'm just saying we shouldn't "water-down" our training by focusing too much on things that we could get elsewhere. I really get tired of all the touchy-feely "a true martial-artist is above violence" crap. I thought the reason that we studied martial-arts was so that we could respond effectively when violence is thrust upon us.

    Personally, I'm pretty much to the point that I don't tell people that I study martial-arts for the simple reason that when most people hear "martial-artist" they think of someone who's a cross between Mr. Miyagi, and David Caradine's character in Kung Fu. If asked, I generally just tell people that I study self-defense or hand-to-hand combat.

    "Rant mode" OFF
    The test: "Will this work so that I can use it instinctively in vital combat against an opponent who is determined to prevent me from doing so, and who is striving to eliminate me by fair means or foul?" ~ Col. Rex Applegate

    Matt K.

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    Smile Re: The point of all training

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Kenpo brother's and sister's:

    I ran across this quote in Mitsugi Saotome's book called "Akido and the Harmony of Nature" that I'd like to bring to the forum for comment.

    "To discover your spiritual gravity and transcend your aggressive attitude are the point of all trainig."

    What do you all think about this concept?
    I train/study for a number of reasons. None of them "spiritual". I have a very active spiritual pursuit which informs my martial one. The benefits of training will have a positive effect on spiritual pursuits as well but that is very low on the list of why I train. It just does not come anywhere near being the goal. The material in this thread is very comparable to the faith/spirituality thread. It makes for good informative reading!
    Hands on Healer

    "If you can not be King be a healer."

    "The hands of the King are the hands of a healer"

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    every one of us has different reasons for doing what we do.

    i think martial arts is great for character development.......if you find the right one.

    there are as many martial arts out there to suit the needs of all the different folks that study them.
    thats the best part.......

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Kenpo brother's and sister's:

    I ran across this quote in Mitsugi Saotome's book called "Akido and the Harmony of Nature" that I'd like to bring to the forum for comment.

    "To discover your spiritual gravity and transcend your aggressive attitude are the point of all trainig."

    What do you all think about this concept?
    I don't agree. I don't see why so many people like to categorize things into either "black" or "white".

    Every individual is unique and has his/her own reasons why to train. I train for these 3 reasons and in this order:

    (1) Because I find it so much fun
    (2) Because I feel better physically and mentally
    (3) Because I want to know how to defend myself and my family in time of need.

    The author might argue that my 3 points correspond to what he is saying. But I don't buy into this "spiritual gravity" stuff - it is way too abstract as a concept and can mean different things to different people.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: The point of all training

    Dear Seabrook:

    Have you considered that your "spiritual gravity" might be found in 1st Philippians? Mine comes from the gospel of John.

    I've found that I fight better when I'm not in a rage that might affect my reactions and cause mr to do something rash in anger. I almost killed or seriously injured two people one time after being attacked while bouncing at a nightclub. If it weren't for the actions of two alert bartenders I might have been doing time for mansalughter.

    Hyper-aggression is counterproductive in combat. You must have a clear mind with almost a zenlike attitude to respond quickly and decisely
    without emotion.

    This is the message that I got from the quote that I posted.

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    I've found that I fight better when I'm not in a rage that might affect my reactions and cause mr to do something rash in anger. ... Hyper-aggression is counterproductive in combat. You must have a clear mind with almost a zenlike attitude to respond quickly and decisely without emotion. This is the message that I got from the quote that I posted.
    You could interpret it that way. But the quote; "To discover your spiritual gravity and transcend your aggressive attitude are the point of all trainig," was pretty exclusive. Personally, I agree with Mr. Seabrooks enumeration for reasons I train. Others, as has also been said, train for their own reasons.

    There is a definate interaction between traits of character and martial skills. I think that one enhances the other. But Kenpo is not the source of my morality or character, nor the primary vehicle for developing either.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    I am much closer to the Saotome quote than these others... I feel that the most important reason for training is street self-defense (have to these days) but VERY quickly behind that is to reach personal enlightenment, achieve humility, and perfect my character.

    Martial Arts is as close to religion as I choose to get so for me it is a spiritual path as well as a physical one. It just so happens that the style in which I train is brutal street self defense oriented--- but it also is VERY family oriented. (Train at Grandmaster Kuoha's house, and after-class he often invites everyone one and cooks for us etc.)

    I also believe the ultimate martial art for those spiritual folks is Aikido. Meeting force with..... no force- It stops the chain of violence..

    james
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    Dear James:

    Interesting comments brother!

    I've been down the head banging route for most of my life and now I can see that there is another way. I asked an Aikido buddy how he might react if someone jumped his fanny on the street and tried to punch his lights out. He told me at that time when he had 3 or 4 years of Aikido that he would most likely fall back on his Kenpo skills. He has been in Aikido for well over 10 years now and I am looking forward to asking him the same question again. When I do I'll report back to this forum with his answer.

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    Nelson- Thanks... I have some duality in that post. I started to type "to perfect one's character" and quickly realized that I wanted that to be my main answer, but it is not.

    I studied Aikido for about 1 1/2 years and LOVED it (taught Kara-Ho by day then we had a separate Aikido class at night- great fun!) Grandmaster Kuoha has added some Aikido techniques to Kara-Ho Kempo after having many years of training in that and we also utilize the KI principles from Tohei Sensei. These principles are essentially the same "concepts" that Professor Chow (and probably others) taught way back when.

    My Aikido teacher was UDT (predecessor to the seals?) and he was a tough man... He enjoyed watching our kempo and liked the Aikido techniques that we have. Changed my perception of Aikido, that is for sure...I met some BAD BOYS from Aikido- Amazing to see or feel their technique when they have 15+ years of training!

    Anyhow, it is a great question, as it forces the reader to reflect on something that is oft forgotten! Why do we get beaten and thrown on our heads? LOL

    Cheers
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    i take it as.. not to become enraged in a self defense situation and stay clear headed. responding agressivly, and behaving agressivly are 2 different things.. maybe thats what it meant.. because if youv ever been thrown by aikidoka and arent used to breakfalling.. that fall feels pretty agressive.. just because someone pushes you doesnt mean you have to break their arm, even tho theres a technique for it someone comes at you with a knife, or another prson.. by all means. i think thats more of a Jujitsu mentality, but enh.

    kenpoists train it the "overskill deprartment" because thats what we do, we're the big "what if" art.. even my teacher whos been in it for 30 years or so says that after the initial block or parry, everything after that is a choice. i have to fully agree with that.

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    So from an Aikidoka I have a bit to say here. First I had the privilege to meet Saotome Shinhan at a few seminairs. He is a wonderful man who was the last uchi deshi of O'sensei. This peroid of time was a much different time in the history of Aikido as opposed to the Iwama style that Saito Sensei was intrusted with. This was explained as to let go of the aggressive focus and have a sense of mushin "no mind". That once you have achieved this level the choas that sorrounds you during combat can be more easily overcome. This is something I've discussed with other aikidoka and is the point of our training in Aikido. I believe that many systems try to use the principle of no-mind and I can say that I've heard it my traing with EPAK.
    "Fear is the true opiate of combat."

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    Dear Ronin:

    Thanks for your feedback brother! I agree that the "no mind" state is far preferable than being rocked by emotion in combat. As an additional benefit the fear of death is eliminated. I wonder how many on this forum have faced death in mortal combat?

    When you are confronted by a deadly weapon in the hand of a "non-firiendly" you had better stay cool and collected if you plan on surviving.
    I was able to react instinctively and disarm my opponent. The wierd thing about the deal was that I have no conscios recollection of doing anything. Other people told me what happened. In another case I knicked out a guy with a left hook and I never throw that punch. Go figure!

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Ronin:

    Thanks for your feedback brother! I agree that the "no mind" state is far preferable than being rocked by emotion in combat. As an additional benefit the fear of death is eliminated. I wonder how many on this forum have faced death in mortal combat?

    When you are confronted by a deadly weapon in the hand of a "non-firiendly" you had better stay cool and collected if you plan on surviving.
    I was able to react instinctively and disarm my opponent. The wierd thing about the deal was that I have no conscios recollection of doing anything. Other people told me what happened. In another case I knicked out a guy with a left hook and I never throw that punch. Go figure!
    Nelson,

    I would have to say the there was a time in my training when I stopped for abut 4 monthes. It was in between my training in JuJitsu and Aikido. I was involved in a serious incident where I just reacted. It was situation where my body reacted before my mind had time to process. The mushin principle is something that we all strive for. The problem is at times when mushin is in effect things are not thought of in a concious manner until long after the event.

    Best regards

    Chris
    "Fear is the true opiate of combat."

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    I don't agree. I don't see why so many people like to categorize things into either "black" or "white".

    Every individual is unique and has his/her own reasons why to train. I train for these 3 reasons and in this order:

    (1) Because I find it so much fun
    (2) Because I feel better physically and mentally
    (3) Because I want to know how to defend myself and my family in time of need.

    The author might argue that my 3 points correspond to what he is saying. But I don't buy into this "spiritual gravity" stuff - it is way too abstract as a concept and can mean different things to different people.
    I train for the same reasons as Jamie.

    On a side note congratulations on your 1000th post!
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    Thanks Chris for your feedback!

    I'm considering starting a thread were we could find out how many here have faced death in the course of their martial arts careers. Can we do a poll on this website?

    I'd be very interested in reading some posts from the "survivors" of these encounters. I wonder how common the loss of memory is in these incidents. I remember in one case I saw my attacking opponent at the apex of a triangle. Everything else was greyed out as I wanted a piece of his hind end. The funny thing was that he made bail before we filled out the paper work at the police station. The whole incident happened when a biker gang member attacked an off duty cop who was working for us. I stepped in to help the cop and got attacked from behind.

    Another quick question for you bouncers and security folks. Have you ever wanted to kick some bodys behind so bad you could almost taste it?
    I remember throwing folks out of the club who PO'ed me to the point where other's had to talk me out of going outside with them. Can any of you folks relate to this experience?

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Another quick question for you bouncers and security folks. Have you ever wanted to kick some bodys behind so bad you could almost taste it?
    I remember throwing folks out of the club who PO'ed me to the point where other's had to talk me out of going outside with them. Can any of you folks relate to this experience?
    I think anyone, myself included has wanted or felt that way. The thing I refer back to is that as martial artists the first thing we must do is show control and restraint. We are trained to be disciplined in mind and body. I believe that I am the bigger person for not getting involved or difusing the situation with out physical conflict. I always went with the principle, "If you touch me, I'll touch you back". Even then is was not to the point of pounding someone but enough to let the person understand the concept of pain complience.
    "Fear is the true opiate of combat."

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    Dear Ronin:

    Pain compliance does not work on certain types of people. I had a sate cop Ju Jitsu expert telll me that he had broken several wrists of individuals in an unsuccesful attempt to make them "comply."

    Hopped up meth addicts are extremely hard to bring under control without seroius injury to themsleves or others. That's why we have tasers because of the poor skilll sets of most cops with clubs or batons. Too many folks were getting killed by panicky, poorly trained public servants.

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    Default Re: The point of all training

    Nelson,

    I think you go on what works on the majority of persons. There is no magic bullett. I worked in a maximum security correctional facility and pain compliance worked on most all cases. There were the few drug incidents where this was not applicible. To that point dealing with someone who is dusted on PCP is not an enjoyable situation. To that point other types / methods to get the indivdual to comply may be necessary, ie; tasers, less the lethal force and in some very rare cases lethal force.
    The point I was making before was that there are times when you would like to throttle someone. However, I think you do what is necessary and going beyond the necessary is not needed. In my previous situation this will do nothing but have you answering questions on abuse and excessive use of force. That term excessive is artibtrary, but you never want to put yourself in a situation where you could possibly be suspended and or lose your job over something like that.
    "Fear is the true opiate of combat."

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