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    Default What if

    This is something I consider a lot. What would've happened to kenpo if ed Parker had lived for another 10-20 years. He died right before the UFC came in. I believe that ed Parker would've loved the UFC especially in its early days and I believe he would've added a lot more ground fighting elements due to the success of bjj. To me it's such a shame so many instructors are stuck in the past and they're making kenpo into a standard traditional system like shotokan or kyokushin etc. Kenpo was always meant to be adapted but so many are stuck with how it was in the early 90s they take what ed Parker said back then as gospel.

    Now im a young guy I wasn't even born when ed Parker died but I've read a lot on martial arts and I live and breathe it and I genuinely believe kenpo should've adapted more. Right now I'm heavily into Krav Maga and the organisation I train with KMG they are constantly updating and evolving what they do. To me that is what kenpo should be. Today I feel to many only care about just practicing their forms and getting themselves their next Dan rank and from what I've read and from people I've spoken to who knew ed Parker. I believe he'd be very unhappy with the state of kenpo today.

    i still love kenpo and I train my forms techniques daily but I also train other systems and analyse my techniques and insert things from other systems I believe is more effective for me.

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    Default Re: What if

    Quote Originally Posted by Ma_student View Post
    This is something I consider a lot. What would've happened to kenpo if ed Parker had lived for another 10-20 years. He died right before the UFC came in. I believe that ed Parker would've loved the UFC especially in its early days and I believe he would've added a lot more ground fighting elements due to the success of bjj. To me it's such a shame so many instructors are stuck in the past and they're making kenpo into a standard traditional system like shotokan or kyokushin etc. Kenpo was always meant to be adapted but so many are stuck with how it was in the early 90s they take what ed Parker said back then as gospel.

    Now im a young guy I wasn't even born when ed Parker died but I've read a lot on martial arts and I live and breathe it and I genuinely believe kenpo should've adapted more. Right now I'm heavily into Krav Maga and the organisation I train with KMG they are constantly updating and evolving what they do. To me that is what kenpo should be. Today I feel to many only care about just practicing their forms and getting themselves their next Dan rank and from what I've read and from people I've spoken to who knew ed Parker. I believe he'd be very unhappy with the state of kenpo today.

    i still love kenpo and I train my forms techniques daily but I also train other systems and analyse my techniques and insert things from other systems I believe is more effective for me.
    Like most things, it depends on what you desire to get out of the art. The questions of why do you train? What is your intent? Competition? Self Defense? Mastery of self? Exorcise? Community? Business opportunity? any combination of the above?

    That said... I trained in several varied arts through the years before I started with Kenpo and to be honest I thought Kenpo was crap in my first year of it till I was directed to train with someone else in my area. (Thank you Amy). I train for different reasons than others around me.. and over the last 30 odd years my intentions have changed as most peoples will.

    From what I have heard of GM Parker ... and Doc could chime in a more accurate than I... but I could not imagine him really being disappointed with it all. Perplexed perhaps... possible more.. that moment that you watch someone doing something stupid and all you can really do is sigh... and then get back to what you do.

    The Bunny

    Ohh personal opinion... Krav footwork is terrible and has far too much wasted energy... but thats just my 2 coppers.
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    Default Re: What if

    Quote Originally Posted by Ma_student View Post
    This is something I consider a lot. What would've happened to kenpo if ed Parker had lived for another 10-20 years. He died right before the UFC came in. I believe that ed Parker would've loved the UFC especially in its early days and I believe he would've added a lot more ground fighting elements due to the success of bjj. To me it's such a shame so many instructors are stuck in the past and they're making kenpo into a standard traditional system like shotokan or kyokushin etc. Kenpo was always meant to be adapted but so many are stuck with how it was in the early 90s they take what ed Parker said back then as gospel.

    Now im a young guy I wasn't even born when ed Parker died but I've read a lot on martial arts and I live and breathe it and I genuinely believe kenpo should've adapted more. Right now I'm heavily into Krav Maga and the organisation I train with KMG they are constantly updating and evolving what they do. To me that is what kenpo should be. Today I feel to many only care about just practicing their forms and getting themselves their next Dan rank and from what I've read and from people I've spoken to who knew ed Parker. I believe he'd be very unhappy with the state of kenpo today.

    i still love kenpo and I train my forms techniques daily but I also train other systems and analyse my techniques and insert things from other systems I believe is more effective for me.
    For what it's worth, some are. And many disagree because they believe the system is "complete". The depth to which you study the system will determine the value and lessons gleaned from that system. Depth requires time, and in time a person either falls into the cool-aid dispenser or comes to a hard realization but many or should I say most don't take or spend the time required to see. I agree with MrBunny in his statement "it depends".
    Last edited by sumdumguy; 04-11-2019 at 12:08 PM.
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    Default Re: What if

    Quote Originally Posted by sumdumguy View Post
    For what it's worth, some are. And many disagree because they believe the system is "complete". The depth to which you study the system will determine the value and lessons gleaned from that system. Depth requires time, and in time a person either falls into the cool-aid dispenser or comes to a hard realization but many or should I say most don't take or spend the time required to see. I agree with MrBunny in his statement "it depends".
    Amen Brother. So many make the mistake of making broad sweeping statements about "Kenpo" as if it were Shotokan or something. It isn't, never has been, and never will be. I know what you teach is dam good and has no relationship to the posters opinion, nor what I teach either, and that goes probably for most of the resident posters here who all do some form of art related to but not bound by some "manual" description. None of the smart people do, and that was what Mr. Parker wanted his people to do. Take his ideas and create your own style. The so-called teachers let him down.

    News Flash: Mr. Parker was disappointed with the state of "Kenpo" when he was still alive. Since the late sixties, "Kenpo-Karate" as promoted by Ed Parker Sr. has always been more "business" than "martial art" and has never been a "style" of the art. Mr. Parker knew this and expressed that it was an "Entity feeding upon itself" and that he had lost control of the product. That being said, there are some brilliant people who still managed to pull the real lessons out of the conceptual curriculum and have done some great things with the product just has Mr. Parker had intended. Unfortunately, the masses just wanted another belt, and instructors just wanted another student to help pay the bills. And, I'm not saying anything is wrong with that. Like everything else, context makes a difference, so I remind the novices not to put all "Kenpo" in the same bag.

    As for the "grappling" thing, Mr. Parker and his only "Kenpo" Instructor Sifu Chow were doing that before he left Hawaii. That's not new. Mr. Parker, Gene LeBell, and Dave German were doing and teaching that in the 50's, and lessons of it are embedded in the Ed Parker Kenpo Karate Curriculum, but it takes a more worldly and intelligent instructor to bring it forth and teach it. yeah, it's in there. Yep! There's an Ap for that.
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    Default Re: What if

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    Like most things, it depends on what you desire to get out of the art. The questions of why do you train? What is your intent? Competition? Self Defense? Mastery of self? Exorcise? Community? Business opportunity? any combination of the above?

    That said... I trained in several varied arts through the years before I started with Kenpo and to be honest I thought Kenpo was crap in my first year of it till I was directed to train with someone else in my area. (Thank you Amy). I train for different reasons than others around me.. and over the last 30 odd years my intentions have changed as most peoples will.

    From what I have heard of GM Parker ... and Doc could chime in a more accurate than I... but I could not imagine him really being disappointed with it all. Perplexed perhaps... possible more.. that moment that you watch someone doing something stupid and all you can really do is sigh... and then get back to what you do.

    The Bunny

    Ohh personal opinion... Krav footwork is terrible and has far too much wasted energy... but thats just my 2 coppers.
    I agree with you wholeheartedly, especially about Krav. They have no footwork, which happens to be the foundation for everything as you know. Mr. Parker's move to the business is was spawned Krav. I remember when the business of Krav started. They were recruiting experienced instructors to teach the concept, just as Mr. Parker did when he started the business of "Kenpo-Karate." Classes were free for law enforcement and some security professionals back then. that was a smart move and aided in their recruitment. Unfortunately, the commercial business of Krav bears little relationship to the real Krav Maga of the IDF, and the real instructors are not in large enough numbers to even make it possible.
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    Default Re: What if

    Fad.

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    Default Re: What if

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Fad.
    What is a fad, MMA?

    i would say it is not a fad. But some proponents of it want to claim that it is THE yardstick against which all other martial arts must be measured. It is not.

    i don’t follow it, I don’t pay attention to it, I have no interest in it, I am only vaguely familiar with some of the names of competitors that get some attention and I don’t adjust anything about how I train because of MMA.
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    Default Re: What if

    MMA is a fad as well. Its popular now but when will the magic rub off?

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    Default Re: What if

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    What is a fad, MMA?

    i would say it is not a fad. But some proponents of it want to claim that it is THE yardstick against which all other martial arts must be measured. It is not.

    i don’t follow it, I don’t pay attention to it, I have no interest in it, I am only vaguely familiar with some of the names of competitors that get some attention and I don’t adjust anything about how I train because of MMA.
    Ditto, except I only know one name, Rhonda Rousey through Gene Lebell.
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    Default Re: What if

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    MMA is a fad as well. Its popular now but when will the magic rub off?
    It’s a fad in the same way that boxing is a fad.
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    Default Re: What if

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    MMA is a fad as well. Its popular now but when will the magic rub off?
    Lol people said the same in 93. Sorry but it's here to stay

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    Default Re: What if

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    I agree with you wholeheartedly, especially about Krav. They have no footwork, which happens to be the foundation for everything as you know. Mr. Parker's move to the business is was spawned Krav. I remember when the business of Krav started. They were recruiting experienced instructors to teach the concept, just as Mr. Parker did when he started the business of "Kenpo-Karate." Classes were free for law enforcement and some security professionals back then. that was a smart move and aided in their recruitment. Unfortunately, the commercial business of Krav bears little relationship to the real Krav Maga of the IDF, and the real instructors are not in large enough numbers to even make it possible.
    Have you ever actually trained Krav Maga? Because frankly the footwork is almost the exact same as kenpo. They have switches, covers and crossovers. They move in almost exactly the same away and the guy who runs KMG the organisation I train under eyal yanilow was Imi litchfields highest ranking student

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    Default Re: What if

    I used to watch a lot of MMA when FOX (at least I am pretty sure it was FOX) used to show a lot of "Pride" fighting from Japan. The fighting was so good with a lot more Asian fighters than you see in UFC.

    Sadly UFC bought them out as they started to get just as big as the UFC.

    You can still watch some of the fights or at least highlights of the fights on YouTube.

    Remember the Don Frye vs Yoshihiro Takayama fight?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-Ff_7d_Jn8

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    Default Re: What if

    Quote Originally Posted by Crouching Tiger View Post
    I used to watch a lot of MMA when FOX (at least I am pretty sure it was FOX) used to show a lot of "Pride" fighting from Japan. The fighting was so good with a lot more Asian fighters than you see in UFC.

    Sadly UFC bought them out as they started to get just as big as the UFC.

    You can still watch some of the fights or at least highlights of the fights on YouTube.

    Remember the Don Frye vs Yoshihiro Takayama fight?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-Ff_7d_Jn8
    I don't trust the Japanese Mma scene, it's well know there were fixed fights and most were on steroids

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    Default Re: What if

    Quote Originally Posted by Ma_student View Post
    This is something I consider a lot. What would've happened to kenpo if ed Parker had lived for another 10-20 years. He died right before the UFC came in. I believe that ed Parker would've loved the UFC especially in its early days and I believe he would've added a lot more ground fighting elements due to the success of bjj. To me it's such a shame so many instructors are stuck in the past and they're making kenpo into a standard traditional system like shotokan or kyokushin etc. Kenpo was always meant to be adapted but so many are stuck with how it was in the early 90s they take what ed Parker said back then as gospel.

    Now im a young guy I wasn't even born when ed Parker died but I've read a lot on martial arts and I live and breathe it and I genuinely believe kenpo should've adapted more. Right now I'm heavily into Krav Maga and the organisation I train with KMG they are constantly updating and evolving what they do. To me that is what kenpo should be. Today I feel to many only care about just practicing their forms and getting themselves their next Dan rank and from what I've read and from people I've spoken to who knew ed Parker. I believe he'd be very unhappy with the state of kenpo today.

    i still love kenpo and I train my forms techniques daily but I also train other systems and analyse my techniques and insert things from other systems I believe is more effective for me.
    For those of us who are a tad older, The UFC is not new but just another phase that Mr. Parker predicted. Those of us who were around and watched "Judo" Gene LeBell win the world wrestling championship, or saw him choke out Welterweight Boxer Milo Savage, has seen this all before. The difference this time is media and the decline of boxing, with MMA filling in the void.

    MMA has not popularized martial arts training, but instead created a spectator sport much like before in the forties and fifties. There isn't an MMA school on every corner or strip mall. There are more commercial jiu-jitsu schools but even they are doing the bulk of their business in online courses after the popularizing of the Judo competition based South American art they call Jiu-jitsu. I'm glad you like what you're doing, but it too has slid immensely since it first made the rounds. The difference is whether you're just training a bunch of scenarios or whether you are in a well-rounded "system."

    As for all the things you think Mr. Parker would have added to Kenpo, well it's already there if you have a teacher who knows and will teach you. Mr. Parker didn't need to add anything when in fact he took most of these things OUT of the system when he created Kenpo Karate from his Chinese Kenpo and its Chin-na from Sifu Ark Wong, but left enough remnants in there that the astute and knowledgeable teachers could bring it out if they choose to.

    People always make the same mistakes. They take their own Kenpo experience under whoever and decide that everyone else had/have the same experience doing the same thing. They couldn't be more wrong, but as long as they have found happiness doing something it doesn't matter. Just don't make the mistake of thinking you know what everyone's Kenpo is about. Be content with being an expert in your own experience and we'll all get behind you. But, there are people here who could tell you things about Kenpo that would make your head spin and what you're doing look like elementary school recess. The water is way deeper than you could ever imagine.
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    Default Re: What if

    Quote Originally Posted by Ma_student View Post
    Have you ever actually trained Krav Maga? Because frankly the footwork is almost the exact same as kenpo. They have switches, covers and crossovers. They move in almost exactly the same away and the guy who runs KMG the organisation I train under eyal yanilow was Imi litchfields highest ranking student
    Sorry but having footwork.. and using footwork are very different things.. then you throw in the idea of understanding footwork and it's implications.. well then you open a whole new can of invertebrates.

    Even though I am not a fan of KMG for the aforementioned observations that does not mean it is without merit. Great for cardio and training endurance, its great for short digestible lessons for people who do not plan a life long love affair with martial arts, great for people who want to feel they have control in their life.. even some good lessons in quick encounters.. I think my biggest issue with it would be it's expenditure of energy fighting against ones own body.. it's poor structure.

    I think of it as a Mr.Turtle pool vs a Triathlon training pool... Sure you can cool off on a hot day.. but it's just a bit shallow for long term development.

    Again.. just my 2 coppers.

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    Default Re: What if

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    Sorry but having footwork.. and using footwork are very different things.. then you throw in the idea of understanding footwork and it's implications.. well then you open a whole new can of invertebrates.

    Even though I am not a fan of KMG for the aforementioned observations that does not mean it is without merit. Great for cardio and training endurance, its great for short digestible lessons for people who do not plan a life long love affair with martial arts, great for people who want to feel they have control in their life.. even some good lessons in quick encounters.. I think my biggest issue with it would be it's expenditure of energy fighting against ones own body.. it's poor structure.

    I think of it as a Mr.Turtle pool vs a Triathlon training pool... Sure you can cool off on a hot day.. but it's just a bit shallow for long term development.

    Again.. just my 2 coppers.

    The bunny
    Very well said - for a rabbit. I'll co-sign your coppers.
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    Default Re: What if

    Quote Originally Posted by Ma_student View Post
    Have you ever actually trained Krav Maga? Because frankly the footwork is almost the exact same as kenpo. They have switches, covers and crossovers. They move in almost exactly the same away and the guy who runs KMG the organisation I train under eyal yanilow was Imi litchfields highest ranking student
    You missed the part where I said they recruited black belts from all styles to teach Krav, so those instructors brought their own experiences and basics to teach, just like Ed Parker did in the sixties. They borrowed from his business plan. So it is entirely possible those you are learning from have an Ed Parker Kenpo karate background.

    But just like Kenpo Karate, the interpretation and teaching vary from instructor-to-instructor based on their experience and background just like with Kenpo Karate. Don't make the mistake of thinking all Krav is the same and doing what you're doing.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: What if

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    Sorry but having footwork.. and using footwork are very different things.. then you throw in the idea of understanding footwork and it's implications.. well then you open a whole new can of invertebrates.

    Even though I am not a fan of KMG for the aforementioned observations that does not mean it is without merit. Great for cardio and training endurance, its great for short digestible lessons for people who do not plan a life long love affair with martial arts, great for people who want to feel they have control in their life.. even some good lessons in quick encounters.. I think my biggest issue with it would be it's expenditure of energy fighting against ones own body.. it's poor structure.

    I think of it as a Mr.Turtle pool vs a Triathlon training pool... Sure you can cool off on a hot day.. but it's just a bit shallow for long term development.

    Again.. just my 2 coppers.

    The bunny
    Yeah a Krav guy can't bore you to death with a 2 hour lecture on footwork but that's not what it's for. Krav Maga is basically kenpo but without the nonsense. Also Krav Maga has way more live sparring and pressure drills than any kenpo school I have ever trained in. A lot of the techniques are very similar to kenpo ones but just without the flashy nonsense that doesn't work. They don't waste time talking about category completion or quadrant zones they just focus on actual self defence and isn't that what kenpo was designed for? Yeah it's way better for cardio than kenpo. But that's because most instructors prefer to stand around lecturing you for an hour rather than...actually doing kenpo.

    fsct is I like kenpo but I'm also open and realistic and frankly there's a lot of crap in it that will get you killed in a real life encounter and a lot of instructors simply don't teach in a realistic way for self defence. They go up and down the hall throwing punches they do their forms and practice their techniques on compliment partners who don't fight back. Not saying all schools do this but there's a lot more that do than don't from my experience.

    krav Maga does the opposite, they hit the pads, they spar and when doing techniques they put you under pressure so you can feel the realism and they have the training partner trying to block or move away.

    maybe instead of people having such a closed mind they could realise they can actually learn stuff from other systems

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    Default Re: What if

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    You missed the part where I said they recruited black belts from all styles to teach Krav, so those instructors brought their own experiences and basics to teach, just like Ed Parker did in the sixties. They borrowed from his business plan. So it is entirely possible those you are learning from have an Ed Parker Kenpo karate background.

    But just like Kenpo Karate, the interpretation and teaching vary from instructor-to-instructor based on their experience and background just like with Kenpo Karate. Don't make the mistake of thinking all Krav is the same and doing what you're doing.
    Lol no the founder of the main Krav organisation trained directly under Imi litchfield and has absolutely 0 training in kenpo. Maybe some places have done that. But certainly not the organisation I train in.

    And you must've missed my question? Have YOU ever trained in krav maga?

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