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Thread: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

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    Default Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    Has the MMA succeeded in driving the 'final nail in the shrinking coffin of the traditional martial arts? Other than BJJ clubs MMA style clubs are as plentiful as fleas on a coon dog's behind. Is it too early to sound the death knell for the traditional martial arts or is it time to climb on the bandwagon?

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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    seems to me ..

    Boxing put a beating on MMA recently.

    That's about as traditional as one can get.

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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    seems to me ..

    Boxing put a beating on MMA recently.

    That's about as traditional as one can get.
    That was a cartoon.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    I don't think the traditional martial arts are going away at all, I still see plenty of karate and taekwondo studios around.

    Sure, you will see some open and then close their doors after a few months, but I have also seen some MMA places close their doors as well.

    Parents still throw their kids into the closest "karate place" in hopes they will learn some discipline, and as long as there are rowdy kids (which is almost all of them) there will always be karate places.

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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    If anything, the proliferation of MMA provides great potential for the resurrection of the traditional arts provided the studio owners actually look at what the consumer is responding to and put in the work to make themselves of greater value.

    A good analogy of the basic problem for me would be when I took Spanish classes in high school. My expectation was that I would learn to converse in another language. This was not the case. What I learned was the mechanics of the language, the sentence structure, conjugating verbs, etc. I was left disappointed because I was provided the mechanics but not the substantive value to make it functional. I think many of the traditional schools are suffering from the same problem. They are providing mechanics (good or bad aside) without a realistic view of the substantive function. People perceive MMA to fill that void.

    Why do most people get involved in martial arts to begin with? Isn't it with the expected result of learning to defend themselves? Is that what they actually get? I think that at one time the answer was yes. As studios became more and more profitable, less and less qualified instructors opened new studios thus reducing the functional understanding of the art they were professing to teach until they became empty shells. I think it's fair to say that kenpo falls into this category as well. People became disappointed by being given a bunch of superficial movements with no practical substance.

    MMA has come along and given people a perception of it being a complete, functional package. Let's face it, most people think competitive fighting and self defense are basically the same thing and that makes MMA perceptually the thing that people want most. If we're being honest, most people today are going to be more prepared to protect themselves with a year of MMA than five years in a traditional school. This won't last though. Just as with the traditional schools, MMA schools will become more watered down as profits go up. Both groups will potentially end up in the same position.

    If practitioners of the traditional arts would consistently get back to their former level of mechanical execution and depth of knowledge combined with the real world, functional, substantive applications that people are actually looking for, they would have a huge advantage over MMA in the consumer market. On the optimistic side, this would force the MMA group to increase their level of knowledge to be competitive and both groups would be better off. I don't think this will be the case though. I think it's far more likely that MMA and the traditional arts will find themselves in the same spot, far more bad schools than good that leave people looking for the next thing that looks like it offers what they want.

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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Has the MMA succeeded in driving the 'final nail in the shrinking coffin of the traditional martial arts?
    No.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    I think the comments regarding the effectiveness of one year training in mma are on the button. Six months in a good mma school would make a world of difference while 6 months of strip mall "karaty" usually leaves a student bewildered in an actual street fight.

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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    I think the comments regarding the effectiveness of one year training in mma are on the button. Six months in a good mma school would make a world of difference while 6 months of strip mall "karaty" usually leaves a student bewildered in an actual street fight.
    If someone is interested in MMA, then that is what they ought to train. Beyond that, I really don't see much else to say about it.
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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    I think the comments regarding the effectiveness of one year training in mma are on the button. Six months in a good mma school would make a world of difference while 6 months of strip mall "karaty" usually leaves a student bewildered in an actual street fight.
    Typically, a martial art starts out as an effective fighting system based on actual combat experience. Then it gets watered down, simplified, socialized, made suitable for kids and retards, and so forth. By the time it has become "traditional", it has lost most of its effectivity. This holds true for Karate, Judo, Aikido, various Kung Fu styles, boxing etc.

    When I took up martial arts, their self-defense aspects were central to me. But I noted a lack of emphasis on those in the Japanese arts that I was practising. This is what drew me to Kenpo in the first place; I saw it as a way to transfer the skill sets I had acquired to a more combat oriented framework.

    Nowadays, even Kenpo has become a "traditional art". Surely, BBJ, Krav Maga, Systema are the trendy ones. Some traditional Karate schools have read the signs of the times right and started looking back to their Okinawan roots - making an effort to reintegrate realistic kata bunkai, kyusho, advanced body mechanics, what have you. Other traditional martial arts should follow their example, if they want to stay relevant in terms of modern street defense requirements.

    Not that this would be, or should be, the prevalent interest of every practitioner. Many practise for the sake of contests, fitness, performance art, spiritual aspects etc. And there is nothing wrong with that. As long as they don't fool themselves into believing that a few years of traditional Aikido will turn them into an invincible warrior beast.

    Now the Kenpoist does have a head start as far as self-defense prowess, provided that they have a good instructor. I actually believe Kenpo to still be one of the best systems there are in this regard. But even Kenpo is called upon to go back to its roots and those of its mother arts - beyond the time it was originally brought to Hawaii, even.

    That's what I and my associates like to focus on, anyhow. Because we believe that sometimes, in order to progress, you need to go back first and pick up what has once been lost by the wayside.

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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    Because after all, "kids and retards" will never find themself in a self defense situation. Really?!?
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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by bdparsons View Post
    Because after all, "kids and retards" will never find themself in a self defense situation. Really?!?
    They better shouldn't, if all they were taught is sport karate!

    (They better shouldn't anyway, of course - but I hope you get what I mean.)
    Last edited by Star Dragon; 09-03-2017 at 05:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    "And retards" tells me all I need to know about your post.
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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    Before the thread gets derailed (or closed).

    No, MMA is the latest fad for young men who want to prove themselves. What the statistics say is always misleading in martial arts circles. "MMA is the fastest growing sport", no it's not. It's the fastest growing SPECTATOR sport, big difference. More people watch MMA at a faster pace, but this isn't translating to students training in MMA. The other thing, many "MMA schools" are just cashing in on the fad and using the name, much like the Krav Maga craze that you could take a week long certification course and teach it.

    That being said, many people take martial arts for many different reasons. One of those reasons is that some people LIKE the tradition and ritual of their art. Look at many sword styles. It has nothing to do with "the street", but is enjoyed by many. Other people like the challenge of their art and perfecting themselves through it.

    The thing about MMA is just that. It is mixing different arts to be most successful in a specific arena and rule set. As rules change and as athletes get better, you will see different things popping up to keep the advantage. Some specific examples, the difference in techniques between Pride and UFC and how poorly each athlete initially did when switching between the two. You are also seeing a resurgence of "traditional" techniques in MMA. Stuff that was thrown out in the beginning is now being looked at. One example is the hammerfist, you almost never saw it and always saw these horrible looking hook punches then Sakuraba comes along in Pride and starts dropping them in groundfighting and now it is a staple technique. Never really saw a front snap kick, only the "teep" or push kick until Machida dropped Randy Couture with a Crane Kick to the face.

    Also, ALL of MMA comes from and has it's roots in the TMA's. There are no techniques in MMA that are not found in a TMA. The opposite is not true, there are many techniques in TMA's that are not in TMA's. The main difference is how they are training.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by bdparsons View Post
    "And retards" tells me all I need to know about your post.
    It was just a pithy way to explain why some martial arts were watered down. I didn't mean it personally in any manner.

    Also, I acknowledge that there can be reasons other than self-defence to engage even in those arts.

    Hope that clarifies things.

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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    It was just a pithy way to explain why some martial arts were watered down. I didn't mean it personally in any manner.

    Also, I acknowledge that there can be reasons other than self-defence to engage even in those arts.

    Hope that clarifies things.
    Seriously, I'm going to just make a blunt suggestion that if you want to make "pithy" comments, as you call them, you avoid using derogatory terms like "retard" or other loaded terms that are genuinely offensive. I wouldn't be surprised if some members of this board, like me, have family members and friends who are developmentally disabled, and who might take a word like that as a personal offense.

    make no mistake: comments like that are offensive. You will make enemies by using them.

    i am surprised that any explanation is even necessary.
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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    I think we all need to avoid judging others by a slip of the tongue or word.

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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    I think some people need to grow up and exercise a bit of care in their use of language.

    and for the life of me, it is shockingly sad to realize that some people don't seem to understand that.
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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    Hence my signature line. Time to move back on topic folks.


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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    Before the thread gets derailed (or closed).

    No, MMA is the latest fad for young men who want to prove themselves. What the statistics say is always misleading in martial arts circles. "MMA is the fastest growing sport", no it's not. It's the fastest growing SPECTATOR sport, big difference. More people watch MMA at a faster pace, but this isn't translating to students training in MMA. The other thing, many "MMA schools" are just cashing in on the fad and using the name, much like the Krav Maga craze that you could take a week long certification course and teach it.

    That being said, many people take martial arts for many different reasons. One of those reasons is that some people LIKE the tradition and ritual of their art. Look at many sword styles. It has nothing to do with "the street", but is enjoyed by many. Other people like the challenge of their art and perfecting themselves through it.

    The thing about MMA is just that. It is mixing different arts to be most successful in a specific arena and rule set. As rules change and as athletes get better, you will see different things popping up to keep the advantage. Some specific examples, the difference in techniques between Pride and UFC and how poorly each athlete initially did when switching between the two. You are also seeing a resurgence of "traditional" techniques in MMA. Stuff that was thrown out in the beginning is now being looked at. One example is the hammerfist, you almost never saw it and always saw these horrible looking hook punches then Sakuraba comes along in Pride and starts dropping them in groundfighting and now it is a staple technique. Never really saw a front snap kick, only the "teep" or push kick until Machida dropped Randy Couture with a Crane Kick to the face.

    Also, ALL of MMA comes from and has it's roots in the TMA's. There are no techniques in MMA that are not found in a TMA. The opposite is not true, there are many techniques in TMA's that are not in TMA's. The main difference is how they are training.
    You know I see a new thread, so I start reading and lining up my thoughts of how I would respond. Then, I get to you, and you blow my whole response up. I would feel so much better if you would just admit that you have my place bugged, and be done with it dammit.

    Anyway, this is nothing new and as you said, MMA is growing but only as a spectator sport. It will never achieve that commercial viability on a large scale as "training schools" for a simple reason. You have to really actually train to do it. As you know most people really have no interest in actual training. No, what they want is the "feeling" that they're training and to get promoted for it. The Martial Fantasy Leagues will always occupy the bulk of the business end of "training schools." You know the ones who take everyone because they can't afford to turn down the dollars. Young, old, male, female, everyone. These are the people that those schools attract and teach, and the "training" is going to reflect that fact of business. If training is too real, you discourage most of your customers therefore, the M.F.L. will always be the prevailing popular "training" schools.

    As for the "traditional" question, in regards to Japanese Traditional Arts, General McArthur outlawed the practice of all martial arts at the end of World War 2 under the Marshall Plan until around 1951. When the ban was lifted this is when the philosophy of their arts shifted from "combat skills" to "Zanshin," which is about developing the character of the practitioner over practical applications of fighting, making victory or defeat irrelevant. I believe Shotokan's Founder, Gichin Funakoshi said it best when he stated, "The ultimate aim of karate lies not in victory or defeat but in the perfection of character." The JKA at that time introduced all of the philosophical terms from Iaido, Kyudo, Kendo, etc to emphasize that very point. Zanshin translates to "perfect finish." There will always be those who see this as a pseudo martial activity who instead enjoy the discipline and physicality with only a mild wink at practicality. And as we all know, victory over a defeat is the primary reason of training in self-defense activities, which is why the two perspectives are mutually exclusive - kinda. I say kinda because you can find someone from either perspective who will "sell" you want you're looking for regardless of if it actually fits your purpose.

    Now I got to do an electronic sweep of my residence.

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    Default Re: Are the traditional martial arts dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    You know I see a new thread, so I start reading and lining up my thoughts of how I would respond. Then, I get to you, and you blow my whole response up. I would feel so much better if you would just admit that you have my place bugged, and be done with it dammit.

    Anyway, this is nothing new and as you said, MMA is growing but only as a spectator sport. It will never achieve that commercial viability on a large scale as "training schools" for a simple reason. You have to really actually train to do it. As you know most people really have no interest in actual training. No, what they want is the "feeling" that they're training and to get promoted for it. The Martial Fantasy Leagues will always occupy the bulk of the business end of "training schools." You know the ones who take everyone because they can't afford to turn down the dollars. Young, old, male, female, everyone. These are the people that those schools attract and teach, and the "training" is going to reflect that fact of business. If training is too real, you discourage most of your customers therefore, the M.F.L. will always be the prevailing popular "training" schools.

    As for the "traditional" question, in regards to Japanese Traditional Arts, General McArthur outlawed the practice of all martial arts at the end of World War 2 under the Marshall Plan until around 1951. When the ban was lifted this is when the philosophy of their arts shifted from "combat skills" to "Zanshin," which is about developing the character of the practitioner over practical applications of fighting, making victory or defeat irrelevant. I believe Shotokan's Founder, Gichin Funakoshi said it best when he stated, "The ultimate aim of karate lies not in victory or defeat but in the perfection of character." The JKA at that time introduced all of the philosophical terms from Iaido, Kyudo, Kendo, etc to emphasize that very point. Zanshin translates to "perfect finish." There will always be those who see this as a pseudo martial activity who instead enjoy the discipline and physicality with only a mild wink at practicality. And as we all know, victory over a defeat is the primary reason of training in self-defense activities, which is why the two perspectives are mutually exclusive - kinda. I say kinda because you can find someone from either perspective who will "sell" you want you're looking for regardless of if it actually fits your purpose.

    Now I got to do an electronic sweep of my residence.

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