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    Default Vertical punch double strike

    How many folks here have played with the double strike concept on a vertical fist?
    This can be accomplished in a number of ways which one do you like and why?

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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    Ok, I have been waiting for someone to answer; so, that I might catch your drift, but it hasn't happened. What is a double strike concept on a vertical fist?
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    Nelson,

    Double strike with the same fist or something similar to the chain punching of Wing Chun?

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    Bill Parsons
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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    At least for me, this is what I am thinking he is referencing. At about the 35 sec mark. The video is of Isshin-Ryu's "Sunsu Kata". The double vertical punch is kind of their version of the "u punch" done by other styles.

    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    Interesting

    I was thinking it was a double strike vertical punch like this.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6Rl6ZaH20E

    Cheers Dom :-)

    Sendai Kenpo, Japan

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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
    Interesting

    I was thinking it was a double strike vertical punch like this.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6Rl6ZaH20E

    Cheers Dom :-)

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    At least this version makes sense. The so-called "U-Punch" has limited capabilities, and its most useful iteration is not even a "double punch" at all.
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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    I was taught that it's a prelude to a throw .....
    "To be, rather than to seem"

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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    I like the Systema concept! The punch I'm talking about first strikes vertically with the big knuckles and then rotates CW to engage the entire set. You give a little extra force to the second knuckle strike while not withdrawing the fist. You can use a light bag for feedback to guage the effectiveness if you don't have cooperative uke's around!

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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    I like the Systema concept! The punch I'm talking about first strikes vertically with the big knuckles and then rotates CW to engage the entire set. You give a little extra force to the second knuckle strike while not withdrawing the fist. You can use a light bag for feedback to guage the effectiveness if you don't have cooperative uke's around!
    Punching to the head is not the smartest thing someone can do, and punching to the tip of the mandible will hurt you as much as him. Hand = 27 tiny bones. Head = one big bone. Winner = head. (Thus the term "Bonehead.")
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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    The subtle little hook punch that Systema uses is the exception to the head strike rule in my view. The punch doesn't come from down in "Alabama " and is not delivered with bone breaking force. The hook is followed by a quick back knuckle that uses the two largest knuckles. I like a collarbone strike with a hammer fist to the short hook and back knuckle. The collar bone breaks easily.

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    Default Vertical punch double strike

    I'm confused on the "double" part. Is this the vertical punch rotating to uppercut from the Facebook forum?

    I only see one impact followed by a rotation.

    Please do a short video explanation.

    As for the collarbone, I'm not sure it's that easy to break. A grown man has a pretty tough and resilient clavicle that is typically broken by direct side impact with the shoulder.

    Is Dr. Dave in da House for a ruling. If I'm wrong, I need to add that to the arsenal.
    Last edited by Kenpodave; 10-28-2016 at 12:13 AM.
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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    The style I study utilizes a similar concept. For example, we use an upturned fist (palm up punch) into the abdominal area or ribs, this is snapped into an elbow strike which is "raked through" the target and then converts into a hammer fist as you retrace the path. Another example is just using the elbow and then dropping a hammer on the return.

    One thing I have noticed as a disadvantage is people "bleeding" the techniques together so they aren't throwing quality. Their intent is on the next strike and not the strike they are attempting.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    Good examples thanks!

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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Punching to the head is not the smartest thing someone can do, and punching to the tip of the mandible will hurt you as much as him. Hand = 27 tiny bones. Head = one big bone. Winner = head. (Thus the term "Bonehead.")
    well technically the skull is a number of plates that come together at seems which are fairly weak. While I do not reccomend a wild punch to the head as it is bony and sharp... there are ways and targets on the head that are highly effective.

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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    well technically the skull is a number of plates that come together at seems which are fairly weak. While I do not reccomend a wild punch to the head as it is bony and sharp... there are ways and targets on the head that are highly effective.

    Bunners
    However, I think Doc is right that punching someone's head using the fist is dangerous - in particular, for your fist!

    Which makes me wonder about the many head punches taught in EPAK, though. What do you do about them, Doc? (If you would kindly chime in.) Replace them with heel-palm strikes?

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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    However, I think Doc is right that punching someone's head using the fist is dangerous - in particular, for your fist!

    Which makes me wonder about the many head punches taught in EPAK, though. What do you do about them, Doc? (If you would kindly chime in.) Replace them with heel-palm strikes?
    Technically speaking, Mr. Bunny is correct but there is an age factor that determines how these things are viewed as well. The human body has in general, 206 bones. However, that number is more when you are younger, and less as you age because certain boney formations fuse over time. The human skull is one of those examples.

    Your observations are indeed correct and it is one of a huge plethora of contradictions in Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate espoused in the many outline "manuals" versus Mr. Parker's own philosophy of execution in his "personal" art over the general idea of execution of the so-called "system." You are also correct in the use of the "heel-palm" strike as the preferred method for striking "hard" targets. And while there are some very specific hand formations that fall under the category of "fist" that are used in very specific circumstances to strike above the neck, they are for the more sophisticated and skilled and are not included in Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate for the very same reasons "basics" don't exist. One of the things Mr. Parker taught me is, "Strike the hard with soft, and hit the soft with the hard." And just like there are specialized methods of striking with various fist formations, so is it true with the open hand sir.

    But the efficacy of either is predicated on specific and quite sophisticated body mechanics that in general, are not taught in modern-day interpretations of most martial arts which focus on perceived results. You close your hand, punch the guy and if it hurt him or knocked him down you have achieved your goal. But that is a novice perspective. The sophistication of the mechanisms to accomplish that goal at its most efficient and effective level requires a much higher level of execution, which just so happens to lead to more longevity and less wear and tear on your own body. Damn near everyone can throw a punch with no training when they walk in the door, but throwing a skilled punch is what we're supposed to strive for. Unfortunately, the definition of "skill" has been watered down and compromised over time.

    I've yet to run across anyone who actually knows "how" to make a fist at that level, even though most can and do punch with some degree of effectiveness. I demonstrated this recently to a group of "seasoned" martial artists who were unable to make a fist that was connected to the rest of their body and supported structural integrity. Apparently, none of them had heard of the Fibonacci Sequence. It depends upon whether you want to be "martial artistic," or utilize martial science in what is clearly an activity that depends upon a clear understanding of the execution of bio-mechanics found in the nature of how the human body is constructed and how it moves. Mr. Parker was well aware of the Fibonacci Sequence but apparently never mentioned it to too many people that I've run across. What we have is a lot of people teaching body mechanics with no real knowledge of proper mechanics themselves sir. Or as Mr. Parker was fond of saying, "The one-eyed man in the land of the blind, is a king, or a black belt."
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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    Your post was as conclusive as I expected it to be, Doc.

    Regarding this part:

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    And while there are some very specific hand formations that fall under the category of "fist" that are used in very specific circumstances to strike above the neck, they are for the more sophisticated and skilled and are not included in Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate for the very same reasons "basics" don't exist.
    Wouldn't it be sensible then to subsitute such special "fists" for all the regular-fist head punches in the Parker system?

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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    I found punching a person in the nose to be very helpful in getting someone's attention! Lol A quick backnuckle or back fist also works well. The temple has some very vulnerable locations on each side of the head. A strike to the throat and esophagus is also very effectve. A corkscrew punch to each eye orbit can quickly blur the eyesight of an attacker and give you a tactical advantage.

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    Default Re: Vertical punch double strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    Your post was as conclusive as I expected it to be, Doc.

    Regarding this part:



    Wouldn't it be sensible then to subsitute such special "fists" for all the regular-fist head punches in the Parker system?
    Well I would agree with you sir, except the applications you recognize are quite specific to actions and circumstances, and Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate is a "general" information training vehicle by design. It was never intended to be what you have obviously discerned it needs to be and can be for you personally. That is the beauty of the design. It rises or falls to the level of the practitioner, predicated on his available source of information, his own intellectual and physical capabilities and desires, coupled with the commitment to make it happen. Anyone who has seen the flood of children in Kenpo schools should recognize that fact.

    Your willingness to challenge the orthodoxy based on logic is what you're supposed to do, however at the same time that means that should you choose to teach, you are no longer teaching the system but your own interpretation of the system. That is why Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate is only a "system" within the framework of its systematic approach to what is obviously conceptual material. By design, it changes for everyone that participates as it is "tailored" for the individual, therefore maintaining the integrity of the system conceptual construct is impossible, yet many want to treat it as a "style' of the arts instead of the conceptual training vehicle that it is.

    I've had a generous number of black belts who at one point after being exposed to our teaching, attempted to take the obviously effective physical principles of execution of our teaching, and because of a desire to not let go of their previous efforts, attempt to merge it with their previous Ed Parker Kenpo Karate training before relizing the contradictions are too significant. It is like attempting to merge biomechanics and artistic photography. One is a true science and the other is interpretive art. They simply don't fit together any more than screen doors on submarines. You can't fix one with the other without ultimately abandoning one method for the other. You either realize the incompatibility and make the leap to change, or you revert back to your previous method. Science does not allow for interpretations only results. Now, like mathematics, there may be more that one way to arrive at the correct conclusion, but all get there through science. How you choose to express the science is where the "art" comes in, but the bottom line is everything is driven by the science first sir.

    So in conclusion, you may do exactly as you stated, but then you're leaving out the mechanics of "how" to formulate the "punch," and "how" to execute the punch, and "how" you stand, and "how" the stances work, and "how" the footwork works, and ......

    Mr. Parker used to tell me, "You're not going to learn to swim by standing by the pool and getting occasionally splashed with water. Sooner or later you have to jump into the deep end of the pool - or go home." But one of my favorite things he told me was, "Just because you been to the rifle range, don't make you a veteran." He had a unique way of making his point in a manner that anyone could understand his meanings.
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