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Thread: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

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    Default 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    100 punches per day, each hand

    I bought a 8' cedar 4x4 and had it cut to a 1" taper. buried the fat end 2.5' (post holing 3' is crazy hard). Taped a yellow sponge to the front on day 2 to prevent any MORE splinters.

    I've learned a lot so far about hitting stuff

    the alignment of the finger and the elbow seem to create proper alignment in the wrist.

    thunk!buzz - good....... thunk thunk boing - bad

    spine up straight turn the hip don't lean.

    know the exact specific spot on yoru knuckle that you want to put on the target

    many more things that I can't articulate....

    ready for some breaking Dr. C.
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

    "...while you guys are arguing, I'm on the grind."
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    "If you don't ask the right questions, I can't give you the answers, and if you don't know the right question to ask, you're not ready for the answers"
    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    Grats,

    have you noticed improvement in your technique as far as hitting power?

    Any benefits that you have gotten from the makiwara than gotten from heavy bag training in the same manner?

    do you supplement with knuckle push ups?
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    I'm also curious about your stance and striking style. Are you hitting from a horse or a fighting stance?

    Thanks,

    Joel

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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    100 punches per day, each hand
    EXCELLENT!!!!
    I'm glad you're commited to doing that. I'll be very interested to hear how it goes for you after 365 days solid!!!!!!

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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    Good stuff, Dave! Keep at it with noble intent.

    Dan

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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    100 punches per day, each hand

    I bought a 8' cedar 4x4 and had it cut to a 1" taper. buried the fat end 2.5' (post holing 3' is crazy hard). Taped a yellow sponge to the front on day 2 to prevent any MORE splinters.

    I've learned a lot so far about hitting stuff

    the alignment of the finger and the elbow seem to create proper alignment in the wrist.

    thunk!buzz - good....... thunk thunk boing - bad

    spine up straight turn the hip don't lean.

    know the exact specific spot on yoru knuckle that you want to put on the target

    many more things that I can't articulate....

    ready for some breaking Dr. C.
    Come to camp with a car trunk filled with 1" pine boards cut 1 foot square, and with as many of those...aw, hell; brain cloud. Whaddya callit...you build a concrete block wall with the those big blocks, but when you get to the top, you put a concrete capstone thingy on it...looks like a concrete paver, but is designed to top a block wall.

    Headin off for coffee. Brain just not kickin on for me.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Come to camp with a car trunk filled with 1" pine boards cut 1 foot square, and with as many of those...aw, hell; brain cloud. Whaddya callit...you build a concrete block wall with the those big blocks, but when you get to the top, you put a concrete capstone thingy on it...looks like a concrete paver, but is designed to top a block wall.

    Headin off for coffee. Brain just not kickin on for me.
    cinder blocks?
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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    Grats,

    have you noticed improvement in your technique as far as hitting power?

    Any benefits that you have gotten from the makiwara than gotten from heavy bag training in the same manner?

    do you supplement with knuckle push ups?
    Quote Originally Posted by J Ellis View Post
    I'm also curious about your stance and striking style. Are you hitting from a horse or a fighting stance?

    Thanks,

    Joel
    I am using a forward bow stance. I rotate into it form a NB on the first strike, and then just hold that stance for the next 99 punches. Sometimes I do the stance transition every punch but the goal here is not to hit it as hard as I can - I already know I can break my hand on it if I wanted to. Same reason I don't PAM and BAM - tried it, started hitting it too hard.

    Strike is a "reverse punch" chambered at the ribcage. Off hand is held at the hip, palm up fist closed. Makes contact at 45 degrees before palm down (does that make sense?)

    How is it different from a heavy bag? Hitting the post with just slightly incorrect alignment gives you a much more "noticeable" feedback (ouch). The level of resistance is much different. The bag is padded and it moves. The post is not and does not (much). Using the post I have developed an appreciation for using a much smaller, more specific, striking surface.

    And it's hard to quantify but I feel like my hands are just getting "harder". I can leave a deeper impression on my heavy bag now for example.

    Mentally, I imagine that punching a meatbag would now seem like punching a pillow. I feel like I could crack a sternum with a punch now. Probably can't, but DAMN I feel like it!!!

    I don't see any reason at all to do knuckle pushups. IMHO the knucle pushup was invented by people who didn't know how to build or use a makiwara.
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

    "...while you guys are arguing, I'm on the grind."
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    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    That's quite a feat, and learning tool. I don't think I could commit to doing 100 punches in the air a day right now, lol. Sounds like you are learning a lot. Thanks for sharing your insights.
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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    Interesting.
    I am not sure I buy into the benefits of makiwara training in these days.
    I mean unless I completely misunderstand the beginnings, and it is quite possible as I am not as interested in history, as I am in the theories and concepts of martial arts, but I thought the makiwara board was originally introduced to condition the hands to break through a Samurai's armor, since the majority of people training has a great chance of facing that type of opponent.

    Fast forward to current times..
    nothing like that typ eo farmor is worn now days, what you would find is something that you would not be able to break no matter how much makiwara training you do, so my thought is what advantages does it have over working with modern equipment...
    I read your comments about your thoughts on the differences between say a heavy bag and the boards, and can appreciate that its at least thought out, but I wonder if you are missing something(or I am.. /shrug) with the makiwara board you are purposely checking yourself and your power in the strike so you do not break your hand.... which is smart, but how many walls are you going to be aiming at for real? I would think the heavy bag would give resistance which would be much better for working that deep penetration on strikes, also you can hit harder which will strengthen the wrists and supporting muscles for the strikes to begin with, which in my opinion is more important on a live body then the makiwaras benefit of focusing on a small part of the hand.
    I think alot of people would say sure so both are equally important right?
    I still have to wonder if thats the case, since working on a heavy bag I can still focus on a small area, and put more power into it to drive in farther..
    I am not saying training on a makiwara alone is bad, and I am not even saying training on a makiwara is bad at all.. I just do not see the benefit, maybe some proponents of the makiwara wouldn't mind making the case here...
    I just see too much risk in damaging the hand is all..

    BTW all this aside, I commend you on trying something new, sticking to it for a preset period of time, and then drawing your conclusions. I am interested in where this can go.

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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyKBoxer View Post
    Interesting.
    I am not sure I buy into the benefits of makiwara training in these days.
    I mean unless I completely misunderstand the beginnings, and it is quite possible as I am not as interested in history, as I am in the theories and concepts of martial arts, but I thought the makiwara board was originally introduced to condition the hands to break through a Samurai's armor, since the majority of people training has a great chance of facing that type of opponent.

    Fast forward to current times..
    nothing like that typ eo farmor is worn now days, what you would find is something that you would not be able to break no matter how much makiwara training you do, so my thought is what advantages does it have over working with modern equipment...
    I read your comments about your thoughts on the differences between say a heavy bag and the boards, and can appreciate that its at least thought out, but I wonder if you are missing something(or I am.. /shrug) with the makiwara board you are purposely checking yourself and your power in the strike so you do not break your hand.... which is smart, but how many walls are you going to be aiming at for real? I would think the heavy bag would give resistance which would be much better for working that deep penetration on strikes, also you can hit harder which will strengthen the wrists and supporting muscles for the strikes to begin with, which in my opinion is more important on a live body then the makiwaras benefit of focusing on a small part of the hand.
    I think alot of people would say sure so both are equally important right?
    I still have to wonder if thats the case, since working on a heavy bag I can still focus on a small area, and put more power into it to drive in farther..
    I am not saying training on a makiwara alone is bad, and I am not even saying training on a makiwara is bad at all.. I just do not see the benefit, maybe some proponents of the makiwara wouldn't mind making the case here...
    I just see too much risk in damaging the hand is all..

    BTW all this aside, I commend you on trying something new, sticking to it for a preset period of time, and then drawing your conclusions. I am interested in where this can go.
    Some of the kosho guys accentuated the diffeence between two major categories of blows: Concussion, and Percussion. Concussion is the deep, pressing, pushing, penetrating types of blows...you hit the meatbag, and the meatbag goes flying, energy of the strike dispersing along the path of travle into and through the target.

    Percussion strikes displace the energy of the strike within the first inch of impact, compressing the target shallowly. Strikes energy is released at the point of impact, and the area immediately near it; you hit the meatbag, and it stays right where it was when you hit it, but the bones you impacted are crunched.

    I loved my makiwara days; my hesitations for hitting hard were hand density...not so much wrist strength, but the actual sense of my hand being a stone that shatters what it hits, rather than a smaller meatbag colliding with a larger one. I combined it with punching out candle flames by stopping an inch away and letting the bolus of air my fist was pushing continue as a puff (relight, repeat), and gallon water jug training...stick a plastic gallon water jug on a fence post, filled with water, and snap punch it so that you pop the top off it by compressing the contents of the jug, but do not knock the jug off the fence-post. Harder than it sounds.

    Interesting thing happens to the punch. Instead of heavy-handed swoops to break bones, little short, sharp, intensely focused snap and thrust punches crack ribs and facial bones, every time. Breaking boards differences in the types of energy = heavy hand goes through a supported pile of boards; makiwara hand snaps a stack of three held in the air by your free hand, unsupported. Speedxfocusxdepth developed on the board compresses the target faster than the back side of the target can decompress away from the impact.

    I jacked up peoples lead arms and hands, faces, ribs, shins and feet when they'd kick at me, etc., with my makiwara x flame x water jug x free-held boards punch. I kid you not, every time I vertical snap punched someone in the face, I cracked whatever bone was under my fist -- cheekbones, noses, jaws, teeth, maxillary sinuses. And their head would never do anything more than snap back (until the pain hit, or their brain registered the KO).

    But it gets better. Using modified hypnosis techniques, I can take someone and walk them through the process of finding a place of focus from which they can pass their punches easily through ever larger and larger stacks of boards and bricks...like, in an hour or 2, have them go from barely being able to break one or two boards, to plowing through stacks of 10-15, no spacers; but if their hands aren't conditioned to withstand the impact, they are apt to break it during the process, or be so damned sore the next day they think a car ran it over while I had them in an altered state. Heavy bags condition the wrists, but not the bone density of the knuckles themselves, or the umbricals and interossei in quite the same way...the punch knocks the bad guy back, but contacting the head, the bones break. Even Tyson, punching without his hand wrapped and covered, broke his hand punching someone in the head.

    I'm hoping, when out there in a week and a half for Budo Camp, to get some time with him to go over breaking skills and altered states. Done once, he can condition a return cue to it, and return to that state with a thought. If you can trigger an altered state of mind with a recall trigger that's just a word, said on the inside, that allows you to pass your punch through a thick stack of boards or bricks, why not recall that trigger right before punching some putz in mug? Or the breadbasket? Ribs? Shoulder blade? Backs of the hands to break his metacarpals when he puts up his dukes?

    Final thought, and I'll go away. He's checking his power, now. As the tone, denisty, and strength condition, he'll be able to go whole hog with it, and not break his hands. Like working up to a max rep powerlift bench by training chest for a spell before trying to enter the 400+ bench press club. It's a process, wherein gains are made in almost unoticeable increments; I'd bet that, already, he can be halfway through a 100 reps, and notice in the back of his mind, "Dang...I can hit harder today than I could on this same day last week". If that continues, at about the 6 month mark, he'll start improving the hit strength to full tilt boogie, or damn close.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    100 punches per day, each hand

    I bought a 8' cedar 4x4 and had it cut to a 1" taper. buried the fat end 2.5' (post holing 3' is crazy hard). Taped a yellow sponge to the front on day 2 to prevent any MORE splinters.

    I've learned a lot so far about hitting stuff

    the alignment of the finger and the elbow seem to create proper alignment in the wrist.

    thunk!buzz - good....... thunk thunk boing - bad

    spine up straight turn the hip don't lean.

    know the exact specific spot on yoru knuckle that you want to put on the target

    many more things that I can't articulate....

    ready for some breaking Dr. C.
    This maybe a stupid question but I need too know. You stated "Thunk buzz good thunk thunk boing bad". Is the thunk thunk the board slapping you back after the punch? I'm asking because I need too change my punching style, in TKD tounaments a punch only counts if it displaces the opponent so my punches have adapted too that need. Now since I no longer fight in tournaments I'm looking to change my punching style. Secondly will the makewara help with this?

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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by DerekB View Post
    This maybe a stupid question but I need too know. You stated "Thunk buzz good thunk thunk boing bad". Is the thunk thunk the board slapping you back after the punch? I'm asking because I need too change my punching style, in TKD tounaments a punch only counts if it displaces the opponent so my punches have adapted too that need. Now since I no longer fight in tournaments I'm looking to change my punching style. Secondly will the makewara help with this?
    Yeah, if you don't "stick" to the makiwara, it bounces away from your hand, then bounces back into it and that hurts, or if you pulled your hand way back it goes "boing-ng-ng-ng" in the ground.

    If you stick to it when you hit it, it's just the one "thunk". If I've hit it using the knuckle and the meat of the front of my fingers is not pressed into it, then I can feel a higher pitched vibration of the post. If the meat of my fingers is pressed into it (wrist not aligned correctly) the vibration is deadened.

    I'm would not recommend makiwara training to anyone for any reason. Why??? Because you are not my students.
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

    "...while you guys are arguing, I'm on the grind."
    - an anonymous brick puncher

    "If you don't ask the right questions, I can't give you the answers, and if you don't know the right question to ask, you're not ready for the answers"
    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyKBoxer View Post
    Interesting.
    I am not sure I buy into the benefits of makiwara training in these days.
    I mean unless I completely misunderstand the beginnings, and it is quite possible as I am not as interested in history, as I am in the theories and concepts of martial arts, but I thought the makiwara board was originally introduced to condition the hands to break through a Samurai's armor, since the majority of people training has a great chance of facing that type of opponent.

    Fast forward to current times..
    nothing like that typ eo farmor is worn now days, what you would find is something that you would not be able to break no matter how much makiwara training you do, so my thought is what advantages does it have over working with modern equipment...
    I read your comments about your thoughts on the differences between say a heavy bag and the boards, and can appreciate that its at least thought out, but I wonder if you are missing something(or I am.. /shrug) with the makiwara board you are purposely checking yourself and your power in the strike so you do not break your hand.... which is smart, but how many walls are you going to be aiming at for real? I would think the heavy bag would give resistance which would be much better for working that deep penetration on strikes, also you can hit harder which will strengthen the wrists and supporting muscles for the strikes to begin with, which in my opinion is more important on a live body then the makiwaras benefit of focusing on a small part of the hand.
    I think alot of people would say sure so both are equally important right?
    I still have to wonder if thats the case, since working on a heavy bag I can still focus on a small area, and put more power into it to drive in farther..
    I am not saying training on a makiwara alone is bad, and I am not even saying training on a makiwara is bad at all.. I just do not see the benefit, maybe some proponents of the makiwara wouldn't mind making the case here...
    I just see too much risk in damaging the hand is all..

    BTW all this aside, I commend you on trying something new, sticking to it for a preset period of time, and then drawing your conclusions. I am interested in where this can go.
    Hi Dave, good questions, and all thoughts I had before Dr. C and I decided to do the breaking training he described.

    IMHO the idea "to break through a samurai's armor" was only recently attributed to those historical makiwara-hitters as a way to make it easy to say "this is useless now". Are there some historical sources out there that document that idea?

    I think Dave described the benefits very well, no need to re-iterate all that.

    I wouldn't say I was "checking" my power, as that seems to imply I am starting the punch with full power and pulling it off before it lands. Not doing that. Just regulating the power, starting from the formation of the intent to punch in my mind, until I am feeling the buzz of the post.

    I think I get best results when I use both heavy bag and makiwara, different purposes, that compliment each other.

    "he can be halfway through a 100 reps, and notice in the back of his mind, "Dang...I can hit harder today than I could on this same day last week". If that continues, at about the 6 month mark, he'll start improving the hit strength to full tilt boogie, or damn close."

    I notice that at #30 I can hit a lot harder than at #5 in that same set. And by #95 I feel like I could break that sucker in half. You can hear it echo through the neighborhood.
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

    "...while you guys are arguing, I'm on the grind."
    - an anonymous brick puncher

    "If you don't ask the right questions, I can't give you the answers, and if you don't know the right question to ask, you're not ready for the answers"
    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    Hi Dave, good questions, and all thoughts I had before Dr. C and I decided to do the breaking training he described.

    IMHO the idea "to break through a samurai's armor" was only recently attributed to those historical makiwara-hitters as a way to make it easy to say "this is useless now". Are there some historical sources out there that document that idea?

    I think Dave described the benefits very well, no need to re-iterate all that.

    I wouldn't say I was "checking" my power, as that seems to imply I am starting the punch with full power and pulling it off before it lands. Not doing that. Just regulating the power, starting from the formation of the intent to punch in my mind, until I am feeling the buzz of the post.

    I think I get best results when I use both heavy bag and makiwara, different purposes, that compliment each other.

    "he can be halfway through a 100 reps, and notice in the back of his mind, "Dang...I can hit harder today than I could on this same day last week". If that continues, at about the 6 month mark, he'll start improving the hit strength to full tilt boogie, or damn close."

    I notice that at #30 I can hit a lot harder than at #5 in that same set. And by #95 I feel like I could break that sucker in half. You can hear it echo through the neighborhood.
    Sorry, bubba. Didn't mean for it to seem like I was taking credit for your maki decision -- I'm betting you did a buttload of looking into it from a number of sources before deciding.

    Some of my funnest punching people came from mine. I didn't have the ability to actually sink a post and build the thing, so I just folded handtowels into pads, and taped them to trees, then would punch a flat spot into the bark with repetitions. Later moved on to block walls around my folks house, concentrating on not scraping open my knuckles. had to stop, though, cuzza knocking all the mortar loose between the bricks from constant reps. Finally switched to a steel plate, hung from a railroad spike hammered into a large maple tree, or the galvanized metal poles of the basketball courts on the outdoor playground at the old elementary school by the house. "ping, ping, ping."

    Bet the neighbors loved that.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyKBoxer View Post
    Interesting.
    I am not sure I buy into the benefits of makiwara training in these days.
    I mean unless I completely misunderstand the beginnings, and it is quite possible as I am not as interested in history, as I am in the theories and concepts of martial arts, but I thought the makiwara board was originally introduced to condition the hands to break through a Samurai's armor, since the majority of people training has a great chance of facing that type of opponent.
    The armor that the samurai wore was designed to stop or deflect small thin pieces of metal moving at high velocities (think, arrow, sword, spear), or really high velocities like musket balls (some of the later torso armor is proofed against those). Samurai torso armor was made of small iron pieces laced together in overlapping patterns, larger iron pieces or solid construction. I don't care how much makiwara training you are doing your hand isn't punching through that kind of armor.

    The other problematic side of this is that if your gameplan is to be taking on a samurai in full battlefield regalia by punching him, well, I would recommend your time would be better spent developing a new plan or at least spend that time practicing swinging a big stick around. There is a reason there isn't a big striking side of the traditional jujitsu systems, because its stupid to hit people wearing armor with your hand. You grapple him, lock him up, draw something sharp and pointy and stick him in a place where his armor isn't.

    (Not aimed at you Mr. Arnold, just the common misconception.)
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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    Makiwara training was never designed to bypass samouri armor.
    That's a modern myth. Just like the "White belt turning brown and then black by sweat, soil and blood"....
    Neither are true.

    Makiwara training is just as viable today as it was when it was created. It was founded on similar practices from China.

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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    Makiwara training was never designed to bypass samouri armor.
    That's a modern myth. Just like the "White belt turning brown and then black by sweat, soil and blood"....
    Neither are true.

    Makiwara training is just as viable today as it was when it was created. It was founded on similar practices from China.

    Your Brother
    John

    Exactly. Makiwara training was also not the only method of training a punch and was NEVER designed to "condition the knuckles" that is just a byproduct of correct training. Traditionally, they also used bags filled with rice, sand etc. that now we call a heavy bag that was struck as well.

    The makiwara should have some give to it and helps train your alignment of the punch and strengthens the connecting parts to throw a strong punch. As also has been mentioned it develops a certain type of striking power.
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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    Exactly. Makiwara training was also not the only method of training a punch and was NEVER designed to "condition the knuckles" that is just a byproduct of correct training. Traditionally, they also used bags filled with rice, sand etc. that now we call a heavy bag that was struck as well.

    The makiwara should have some give to it and helps train your alignment of the punch and strengthens the connecting parts to throw a strong punch. As also has been mentioned it develops a certain type of striking power.
    Judo has a somewhat similar practice. I've not seen anyone do it for sometime. They take their belt and throw it around a tree. Then they back up to it and, pulling the belt up and over their shoulder, slam the back of their hip into the tree as though to do a "Hip Throw" on it. The tree never moves (well........much) but it trains them on the best alignment for delivering power in the throw. Just like with the Makiwara, it's not the only means but if you've ever been thrown by someone who has practiced this arduously, just like if you've ever been struck by someone who's done their makiwara training arduosly, YOU'LL KNOW the difference!

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    Default Re: 50+ days of makiwara and counting

    No prob Dave, I had researched it and wasn't that interested... As a precursor to our plans at camp was the only reason I started. So I welcomed your comments

    So now I will continue doing it for a while. Probably do it for a year and see where I am at on it then, if I want to continue.
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