Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 35

Thread: How "Real" is Your Training?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default How "Real" is Your Training?

    How “Real” is Your Training?
    By Rob Ray

    ‘The Encyclopedia of Kenpo’ defines American Kenpo as an updated and all-inclusive version of Kenpo, based on logic and practicality, that has been designed to cope with the mode of fighting prevalent on our streets today. There are three key components to this explanation that relate to the effectiveness of Kenpo in regards to self-defense: all-inclusive, logic and practicality, and prevalent on our streets today. With that in mind, can you say that the training you receive has all three elements?

    What does it mean to study an all-inclusive curriculum? The term implies that your studies should contain material to cover all ranges of attack as well as other aspects of self-defense. It has been established that there are two major divisions in martial arts, striking oriented and grappling oriented arts. Under which category do you think American Kenpo should fall? According to the definition your training is not all-inclusive if it does not contain aspects of both. Some striking arts focus on kicking while others use only the hands, some focus on linear movements while others focus more on circular. Some grappling arts center more on takedowns while others prefer joint locks and manipulation. If you are truly studying American Kenpo, by definition, then your training and curriculum should seek to explore applicable aspects of all these topics, which will lead us to the second consideration; logic and practicality.

    Are the movements, maneuvers, and techniques in your curriculum logical and practical? In the simplest terms, do they make sense? The answer to this question lies in the effectiveness of the material taught. How can you determine the value of a technique without actually trying it in real combat? A lot of techniques and applications of American Kenpo have actually been proven in the street, but how do you test new ideas or applications? The dojo, or school, is your testing ground. Using control, enough pressure can be applied in training to determine what the probable results of a maneuver would be. Once you analyze your movements and apply logic and reasoning to the scenario, you can predict with a high degree of certainty whether or not the execution of that maneuver or technique was realistic. Since ‘realism’ is your goal, you should expect to get a bump and/or a bruise or two during your training experience, but major injuries should be rare. But you may be asking the question, “If a lot of American Kenpo applications are already street tested and proven, why would I need to test out new ideas or concepts?” That question relates to the third consideration; what is prevalent on the street today.

    Is the material in your curriculum prevalent to what occurs on the streets today? Consider one of the primary reasons accepted as the motivation behind SGM Ed Parker evolving Kenpo into American Kenpo: the need to update and apply the principles to the types of attacks that were typical of his day. The environment changes as the political and socio-economic climates shift. In today’s environment we have to be more concerned with gang activity. In the U.S. over the last decade there has been a large influx of Latino’s and with it came the notorious street gang MS-13. They are known for using machete’s on their victims. The rise in popularity of what is termed as “Mixed Martial Arts” or “MMA” gave rise to the publics increased interest in grappling arts like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Greco-Roman wrestling. Taking just these two facts into consideration, do you feel your curriculum covers proper defense against an attack with a machete, other bladed weapons, grappling, and/or ground fighting? Utilizing the principle of Environmental Awareness in part means being knowledgeable about events and conditions of your community and place in which you live. What are some of the events you have witnessed in the news or seen in your community that you feel should affect the direction in which your training goes? Upon truly analyzing your current curriculum do you feel the material adequately covers techniques that are applicable to the types of attacks you may be likely to encounter in the street today? Upon careful consideration, the answer to that question can be a sobering experience.

    Think back about the classes you attended over the last month or so and consider what material you covered or learned. Write down your experiences and try to list aspects of what you learned. I actually encourage students to keep a journal and take notes in class. It makes it easier to identify possible gaps in your training. When you identify a gap, you can then adjust your training routine so that you do not find yourself lacking if and when it might matter. Analyze your techniques and maneuvers for efficiency and effectiveness. A lot of people like to film their training sessions and review it later. This allows you to see things from the Third Person point of view. From this perspective you can make note of how logical your movements are and identify any gaps in your defense. Finally, keep up with what is going on in your environment. Are rapes on the rise? Has there been an increase in gang activity or armed robberies? What types of fighting methods do you see being used in action movies or on television? People tend to mimic what they see in the media. Being aware of these things and training to prepare for them will increase your chances of surviving a violent street encounter and make you a more efficient martial artist.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Celtic_Crippler For This Useful Post:

    Brother John (11-10-2007),Devildogmrk (10-25-2007)

  3. #2
    kroh's Avatar
    kroh is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Blue Belt
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Rhode Island, USA,
    Posts
    410
    Thanks
    99
    Thanked 115 Times in 79 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    You make some great points in this article. One thing I think many schools loose sight of in todays martial environment is the fact that you need people who have "been there," either in the real element or trained by some one who was. I feel that over time many instructors who are generations away from any real conflict is that they loose sight of what real conflict looks and acts and tastes like. "Today's streets" do not look like the streets frequented by Mr. Parker. There are significant changes that make where we live and where he lived different. For a martial program to be effective we must take these and other factors into consideration.

    Great article Rob.
    Regards,
    Walt

  4. #3
    gimpat01's Avatar
    gimpat01 is offline
    KenpoTalk
    2nd. Brown Belt
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    795
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 12 Times in 10 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    This is an Excellent article CC. You made a ton of important points.
    "Second chances they don't never matter, people never change
    Once a whore you're nothing more i'm sorry that'll never change
    And about forgiveness, we're both supposed to have exchanged
    I'm sorry honey, but i'm passing up, now look this way...*" --Paramore "Misery Business"


    (*this is where a punch would be landed)

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,361
    Thanks
    841
    Thanked 480 Times in 291 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    Nice article I enjoyed it.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Cobourg ON
    Posts
    1,021
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    It all boils down to "training" your body the way you intend to use it.
    There are plenty of instructors out there that have never been in any sort of confrontation........they can move in class and do all of the "right stuff", but in the end you're training for a "what if".
    "Real" confrontations usually involve "real" pain......something a lot of martial practitioners aren't familiar with.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz
    It all boils down to "training" your body the way you intend to use it.
    There are plenty of instructors out there that have never been in any sort of confrontation........they can move in class and do all of the "right stuff", but in the end you're training for a "what if".
    "Real" confrontations usually involve "real" pain......something a lot of martial practitioners aren't familiar with.
    Good point. That's an aspect many fail to take into consideration yet one SGM Parker pointed out from the beginning. Sure, it will hurt your opponent when you strike them...but what about the effect the impact has on you??? Most don't consider that they may also take damage from hitting an opponent.

    I could care less how good a technique looks. I prefer practical, direct techniques over flashy ones.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    1,383
    Thanks
    1,964
    Thanked 473 Times in 341 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    Good points all around. I think training should include continuing after injury. Like if I were sparring and got drilled with a sidekick to the ribs, knocking the wind out of me, I should keep going to learn how to keep fighting even when injured.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Michael Huffman
    1st Black, AKKI
    www.akki.com

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Cobourg ON
    Posts
    1,021
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151
    Good points all around. I think training should include continuing after injury. Like if I were sparring and got drilled with a sidekick to the ribs, knocking the wind out of me, I should keep going to learn how to keep fighting even when injured.
    thats a good point.

    I will relate something that happened to me.

    I train with one of my best friends, but that never stopped us from really laying the smackdown.

    During a training session, he caught me with a nice hane goshi, which made me kind of mad.....I immediately jumped up and charged at him. He being a quick thinker, let me have it with a side kick to my right leg just above my knee (I thought he broke my knee). My Teacher said something along the line of "are you going to take that?"
    I submitted him with a rear naked choke.......and when he tapped, I let go and proceeded to roll around on the ground in agony begging to go to the hospital.

    Long story short, big bruise on the leg, I won.....then I acted like a crybaby.

    My sensei said if something like that happened on the street...after the guy kicked my leg....he probably would have proceeded to kick me in the face until i stopped moving.

    Sometimes you have to keep walking with a smile on your face even after you stub your toe.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    2,777
    Thanks
    1,624
    Thanked 3,128 Times in 1,479 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    How “Real” is Your Training?
    By Rob Ray

    A lot of techniques and applications of American Kenpo have actually been proven in the street...

    “If a lot of American Kenpo applications are already street tested and proven, why would I need to test out new ideas or concepts?”
    I see this kind of comment often, when people are discussing a martial form that has been in existence for several generations and can trace useage back to feudal age battlefields. Mr. Parker's kenpo is a bit different, however, in how young it is as an art. Many of the SD techs in EPAK are quite young, no older than the 1960s.

    So my question is, how do WE know these techs have been proven on the street? When Mr. Parker developed each tech, did he personally go out in the street and get in a fight to test it's merits? This would mean that he had to have at least 154 street fights just to test each tech once only, not to mention revisions, rejects, etc. I think we can agree this is an unreasonable assumption.

    I guess we could break down the tech and recognize that the elements used in the tech have been proven, i.e. the blocks, strikes, evasion movements, etc. have all been proven. The tech is just a new compilation of those elements, so by extension, the tech has also been "street proven", but I think that is misleading.

    How do we justify this kind of claim, that the techs have been "proven in the street"?
    Michael


    de gustibus non disputante est.
    Negative Douche Bag Number One

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    2,777
    Thanks
    1,624
    Thanked 3,128 Times in 1,479 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Kenpo brother's and sister's:
    You hit the nail on the head in the last post. The truth is that you can't tell how a technique will fare on the street until you use it on the street.

    Many martial arts systems fall into the category of the "classical mess" that Bruce Lee talked about. How many forms/techniques are enough?

    I think that we have to come to terms with the fact that a lot of what we are doing, especially the stuff that is truly destructive, is heavily based in theory and not live "verification".

    There is nothing wrong with that. We can't train by actually breaking each others arms and knees and spines, and tearing out throats and eyes. And to go out into the street with the intention of doing this to the next guy who looks at you funny is morally and ethically wrong and will land you in prison.

    So much of what we practice really is in the realm of theory. We can practice as "realistically" as we can, but there are lines that we cannot cross in the dojo, and we should not cross in the street unless really and truly (and RARELY) necessary. If the theory is sound, and training is solid, we can have trust in the material without portions of it being "street tested".

    But I think a little honesty is in appropriate and perhaps we should avoid making claims that don't add up.
    Michael


    de gustibus non disputante est.
    Negative Douche Bag Number One

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    I see this kind of comment often, (“If a lot of American Kenpo applications are already street tested and proven, why would I need to test out new ideas or concepts?”) ... How do we justify this kind of claim, that the techs have been "proven in the street"?
    I'd like to take this question in a different direction. Most, by far, of the practioners of the martial arts- old and new, have forgotten the reasons for how they train and what they are doing. There is no understanding, without which there can be no realistic training, and, by extension, little probability of successful application.

    Case in point: I recently worked with a senior practitioner in another system. I noticed he was teaching some blocks that were indexed very similar to what Dr. Chapel had described. Of course, I asked him about this. He had no idea what I was talking about, and the result was that he did not carry this concept through to a logical, effective, workable conclusion. In another application, I noticed him teaching a move that, done correctly, would be devastating. Done incorrectly it would leave teeth marks deep in your own knee- and it was being done incorrectly! I asked him about it later, and he asked me "Would you rather understand what you are doing, or just hit him?" You can guess my answer, though I didn't push the issue.

    So I'd say there is more to realistic training than just hitting each other hard, though I don't discount that. Realistic training would have to include questioning and testing everything you do, over and over. If it won't stand up to realistic questioning, how will it stand up in the real world? If your only argument for the workability of your art is that it worked for someone else, past or present, who the heck says it will work for you?

    edit: BTW, CC- that was pretty good.

    Dan C
    Last edited by thedan; 10-03-2006 at 08:25 PM.

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,361
    Thanks
    841
    Thanked 480 Times in 291 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    How you train is how you fight.

    Train wrong you will fight wrong ... no doubt about it.

    Train hard and correctly you will have a greater chance to walk away.

    Remember practice does not make perfect.

    Perfect practice makes perfect.

    Mas Oyama said you should train more than you sleep and he could kill a bull with one punch.

    Oss. (sorry a flash back from the old days).
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,361
    Thanks
    841
    Thanked 480 Times in 291 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Florida:

    I'd have to agree with your last post. Our kenpo school was part of a hybrid Parker system. We focused our many of our techniques on street applications . Most of us were bouncers and/or ex-fighters along with a few Vietnam SF combat veterans thrown in for good measure. We knew what worked on the street because we saw and/or did it on the street. Granted there were some techniques we couldn't work in the dojo such as eye tears, joint strikes, etc. but there were many we could do with the execution of proper control. This included groin attacks and we had more than one "nut cup" busted by a n out of control groin strike.

    The "Golden Targets" are still the groin and the eyes in any system. Years later when I studied Brazilian Ju Jitsu I learned the "sport" nature of extreme fighting. True it was "extreme" but it was not actual combat.
    I'm an old, (54), fat, bald headed Karateka but I can still give a much younger man serious problems because I know when, where, and how to hit someone. I also learned my blocks extremely well by the way!
    I hear ya brother.

    Things have changed in the arts these days. Bottom line is do what you have to do to walk away and go home. I am lucky to have trained with some great people over the years as well.

    Take care,
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

  15. #14
    Airdawg's Avatar
    Airdawg is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    37
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    I plan on winning a fight for my life, every day I go to work. I have not been in a physical confrontation that I would consider a "Fight" in over three years. This is where I give credit to my instructors. I have been in many many "Fights", that are nothing compared to Monday night Black Belt Class. I go hands on with people almost daily, but due to my training, I can dominate them quickly, before they can cause injuries.

    Have any of you heard of Hypervigilance?
    Negative, I am a meat Popsicle.

    Airdawg

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    Is it "street tested?" Absolutely. There are many practicing Kenpoist that have survived confrontations because of their training (myself being one.) SGM Parker himself taught police officers while attending Brigham Young and listened to their feedback on how well it worked in the street when evolving Kenpo into American Kenpo. This is all documented.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    2,777
    Thanks
    1,624
    Thanked 3,128 Times in 1,479 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Is it "street tested?" Absolutely. There are many practicing Kenpoist that have survived confrontations because of their training (myself being one.) SGM Parker himself taught police officers while attending Brigham Young and listened to their feedback on how well it worked in the street when evolving Kenpo into American Kenpo. This is all documented.
    Sure, every art has had some level of street testing as you describe it here. But this isn't true of every tech in any system. Some of it is built upon theory. It may be sound theory, it may be that because "X" worked, "Y" will probably work because it incorporates certain elements of "X", and that is possibly a reasonable position to take. But I think not everything has been street tested.

    I re-read the original passage, and I see that I may have overlooked the key passage: "a lot of techniques", which is not the same as "all the techniques". Given that, I can better accept what you have written here. I do, however, hold to my position that it is probably unrealistic to claim that the complete system has been street tested. I just think that would be an unreasonable claim to make.
    Michael


    de gustibus non disputante est.
    Negative Douche Bag Number One

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    San Diego area
    Posts
    1,024
    Thanks
    876
    Thanked 501 Times in 283 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    My "Perfect practice makes perfect" has been used looks like...

    Here is my little story about realistic training, or NO training at all.


    My oldest brother (50) is a Self-proclaimed MA expert/ Zen master. He is always at the bar (like any good Zen guy)- tattooed all over, a real "Roadhouse" kinda guy. What little training he has he claims from me (?) and a roomate 25 years ago. he does not currently train...at all... He knows a couple sweeps, a vertical punch and a palm heel that he calls "Immortal Man" (which I thought was a strike with the index and middle fingers to soft targets, but he can call it whatever he wants).

    I guess the point is, he walks the walk- He does not train, he does not look for fights, but when it goes down he is able to end it quickly. Is it instinct? Does he really remember something from soo long ago? Or did he simply master and a couple core techniques and avoid the classical mess?

    We are polar opposites and he respects my commitment to MA but he also says he is afraid for me when I go into that bar... maybe he is right? Maybe not..

    james
    The above is just my opinion.

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    San Diego area
    Posts
    1,024
    Thanks
    876
    Thanked 501 Times in 283 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    My "Perfect practice makes perfect" has been used looks like...

    Here is my little story about realistic training, or NO training at all.


    My oldest brother (50) is a Self-proclaimed MA expert/ Zen master. He is always at the bar (like any good Zen guy)- tattooed all over, a real "Roadhouse" kinda guy. What little training he has he claims from me (?) and a roomate 25 years ago. he does not currently train...at all... He knows a couple sweeps, a vertical punch and a palm heel that he calls "Immortal Man" (which I thought was a strike with the index and middle fingers to soft targets, but he can call it whatever he wants).

    I guess the point is, he walks the walk- He does not train, he does not look for fights, but when it goes down he is able to end it quickly. Is it instinct? Does he really remember something from soo long ago? Or did he simply master and a couple core techniques and avoid the classical mess?

    We are polar opposites and he respects my commitment to MA but he also says he is afraid for me when I go into that bar... maybe he is right? Maybe not..

    james
    The above is just my opinion.

  20. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    London, ON
    Posts
    1,601
    Thanks
    64
    Thanked 209 Times in 134 Posts

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    I have my students fight two times per week, all continuous. I do the same as well. Guys like Scott Southwell and Matt Trejo (Scott will be testing for 1st Degree Black on Oct 29th and Matt will be testing for 2nd Degree Black) even fight full-contact with me from time to time.

    As I have said many times, you need to practice techniques AND SPARRING. Too many Kenpoists live and die those 154 base techniques but then hardly ever slap on the gear and see if they can really apply it against an attacker who is trying to take your head off and that hasn't choreographed any of his movements to make you look good as in self-defense technique demonstrations.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


  21. #20
    Zarnyk's Avatar
    Zarnyk is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Kingston,WA
    Posts
    173
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default Re: How "Real" is Your Training?

    I think sparring is good. Nothing like some contact to give you your own experiences.

    To me, on street experience is invaluable. We have a couple of guys, including my Sifu, with plenty of on street experience. That way they can tell you "what works" and "why it works" and not just "these are the movements that SHOULD work".
    Loyal student of Sifu DangeRuss
    Sam Pai Kenpo

    "Jeet Kune Do: it's just a name; don't fuss over it. There's no such thing as a style if you understand the roots of combat." -Bruce Lee

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Cross Training with your Kenpo Training
    By Kenpoist in forum Kenpo General
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 11-09-2006, 09:58 AM
  2. Realism In Training: What Is It?
    By Blackcatbonz in forum Kenpo General
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 11-08-2006, 12:41 PM
  3. training may be over
    By WristTwist in forum Kenpo General
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 02-15-2006, 01:41 PM
  4. Use of Training equipment
    By Brother John in forum Kenpo General
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-14-2006, 06:54 PM
  5. Professor Nick Cerio - taken from NickCeriosKenpo.com
    By fistlaw in forum Hawaiian Kempo - General
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 05-27-2005, 11:00 AM