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Thread: Question on Parting Wings

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    Default Question on Parting Wings

    The other night we were working on Parting Wings:

    PARTING WINGS (front two-hand push)
    1. With feet together, drop back (to 6 o'clock) with your right foot into a left neutral bow as both of your hands chop out (like two extended outwards only using an open hand) to inside of opponent's wrists (forcing opponent's arms out). Make sure that both hands are parallel in height as well as in depth.

    2. Shift (in place) into a left forward bow as your right hand chops to opponent's left ribcage (palm up) simultaneously cocking your left hand to the right of your face (palm toward you).

    3. Shift back (in place) into a left neutral bow as you deliver a left outward chop to opponent's throat (palm down); cocking your right clenched fist to your right hip.

    4. Again shift (in place) into a left forward bow as you drop your left arm horizontally (with palm still facing down) and shoot a right middle knuckle fist (over your left arm) to opponent's solar plexus.

    5. Drop back into a left neutral bow, left front crossover and cover out to 5 o'clock.

    I was having a problem with range in this technique. If you are dropping back to 6 oclock, how do you perform the chop (and the remaining strikes) without first shuffling back in? Has anyone else had a range problem with this technique?

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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    Even though his arms go out his torso will continue you to move a little forward, let inertia do some of the work for you. Plus the shifting to forward bow helps with the right sided strikes., your left side is naturally closer because of the neutral bow. The depth of the stance also is a major factor on how effective you will be, too many people step too far back in the initial move.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    Even though his arms go out his torso will continue you to move a little forward, let inertia do some of the work for you. Plus the shifting to forward bow helps with the right sided strikes., your left side is naturally closer because of the neutral bow. The depth of the stance also is a major factor on how effective you will be, too many people step too far back in the initial move.
    So it could really be a combination of my training partner pulling short and/or me stepping too deep? So I guess the best way to rectify this would to be first find a different partner to run through it with having them commit to the push, and if that doesn't work adust my depth?

    When you do it, do you step back into a "normal" depth neutral bow or is it modified?

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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    your opponent has to commit to an ACTUAL push, not an ATTEMPTED push. this means both his palms have to make contact with your chest and pushes you back. a LOT of opponents will start pushing from 2 steps away, and the defender will INTERCEPT prior to the actual push occuring. you will be out of range for parting wings, that's why we have thrusting wedge...

    pete
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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    If you attacker doesn't commits to the attacks then there is no sense defending them. You don't need a new partner just make them commit to the attacks and make sure you commit tot he attacks when you attack them

    I step into a full neutral bow to maximize my power on my strikes
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    If you attacker doesn't commits to the attacks then there is no sense defending them. You don't need a new partner just make them commit to the attacks and make sure you commit tot he attacks when you attack them

    I step into a full neutral bow to maximize my power on my strikes
    I agree
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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    I was pondering your answer last night and trying to visualize it in my head and I have a follow up question. With the attacker/partner committing to the push, is it the right inward chop that stops his forward momentum?

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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    I have another question. I was reading another thread on this technique in these forums and I found this adjustment:

    Quote Originally Posted by blfycdq
    This technique used to frustrate me until I learned several things about the opening. First, I like to off-angle. As the push comes in, I am stepping back to 5:00 instead of 6:00. I feel this gets my weapons closer to my attacker's centerline as well as gives me a better line of entry with both of my hands.
    What do you think about stepping off on the slight angle?

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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    I don't like stepping off to 5:00. Step back into a neutral bow and establish your base.

    As others have commented on the committed attack, I would like to add my thoughts on the 'Parting' protion. Recall that the "wings" in kenpo are the elbows. Your outward handswords should be striking the attacker at their elbows; bending them out. Often, I will see students who learn this technique Part the Twigs - striking the attackers forearms.

    Striking the elbows from the inside, will cause the attackers arms to bend. Most of us are not gumby, so if the attackers hands are on you, and you bend his elbows out, your are going to create a 'pull' on his upper body. This will also help to bring the attacker into range.

    As you continue your study, you will find a technique where we attempt to run Parting Wings too soon; the attacker is still too far away and our strikes are short of the target - (the elbows). In this technique, we learn another way of addressing this attack. By comparing the two self-defense techniques, you will gain a greater understanding of the 'range' in Parting Wings.


    Also, you mention a 'right inward chop'. I suppose you could use a chop. We use, as I recall, a punching heel palm, followed by a rip to the pectoral muscle. And if that did not stop his forward momentum, the left outward handsword to the neck should slow him down considerably.

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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    I don't like stepping off to 5:00. Step back into a neutral bow and establish your base.

    As others have commented on the committed attack, I would like to add my thoughts on the 'Parting' protion. Recall that the "wings" in kenpo are the elbows. Your outward handswords should be striking the attacker at their elbows; bending them out. Often, I will see students who learn this technique Part the Twigs - striking the attackers forearms.

    Striking the elbows from the inside, will cause the attackers arms to bend. Most of us are not gumby, so if the attackers hands are on you, and you bend his elbows out, your are going to create a 'pull' on his upper body. This will also help to bring the attacker into range.

    As you continue your study, you will find a technique where we attempt to run Parting Wings too soon; the attacker is still too far away and our strikes are short of the target - (the elbows). In this technique, we learn another way of addressing this attack. By comparing the two self-defense techniques, you will gain a greater understanding of the 'range' in Parting Wings.


    Also, you mention a 'right inward chop'. I suppose you could use a chop. We use, as I recall, a punching heel palm, followed by a rip to the pectoral muscle. And if that did not stop his forward momentum, the left outward handsword to the neck should slow him down considerably.
    Thank you, this was highly informative. Giving the information about why it is called parting wings is great information for me to have. My teacher did teach it as a block to the wrist/forearm area. I was taught an inward hand sword to the short ribs as the first strike.

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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    Parting Wings is one of my favorite moves. 99.9% of the time, if a technique isn't working right or feeling right, it means that either the practitioner is doing one little (yet very important) thing wrong...OR the attacker isn't attacking properly. If you step into too deep of a neutral bow or if the attacker doesn't "commit" to pushing you, then it won't work. Try the move a few times (until you get the basis of it down), then have your attacker come at you full force, to try and push you down. I guarantee you will see the difference.


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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpregler View Post
    Thank you, this was highly informative. Giving the information about why it is called parting wings is great information for me to have. My teacher did teach it as a block to the wrist/forearm area. I was taught an inward hand sword to the short ribs as the first strike.
    I just re-read your first post, with your technique write up. I have a few other thoughts, but remember, I am just a knucklehead with a keyboard. I encourage any people with whom I discuss kenpo to refer to their instructor as the 'correct source'.

    The KenpoJournal also lists the outward handswords to the wrists. The other technique to which I referred is 'Twist of Fate'. In the Journal, both are listed as the same attack, with the same initial response/defense. At our school, we learn that Twist of Fate is the correct response for Parting Wings type of attack, except the depth is incorrect - the bad guy is too far away.

    If I have the range, I am able to execute the kick in Twist of Fate.

    The Journal also lists the first strike as a right handsword to the floating ribs. At our school, we do aim higher. This strike is taught as a "punching chop". The strike moves toward the target like a punch, and flips to a chop at the last moment. As I said, I prefer a heel palm strike, with the fingers pointed outward. I can then use my fingers to grab - and I mean grab hard - the pectoral muscle, and rip it toward me. Nasty!

    The 'punching chop' is a counterpart to the 'chopping punch' we see in Glancing Wing - although, I probably shouldn't be pointing that out.

    One more thought on Parting Wings for you. You may recall, that one of the rules of Kenpo, is that when we are "inside" we are supposed to cancel the height zone (think about the kick in Delayed Sword). This technique breaks that rule. We do nothing to cancel height / cancel backup weapons. This will create some problems when executing the technique. Those problems put us in jeopardy.

    If we don't cancel the height zone, we have to do something to prevent the use of a backup weapon ... any ideas?


    And again, please remember that your instructor is the arbitor of what is correct. Me, I ain't nobody.

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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpregler View Post
    The other night we were working on Parting Wings:

    PARTING WINGS (front two-hand push)

    1. With feet together, drop back (to 6 o'clock) with your right foot into a left neutral bow as both of your hands chop out (like two extended outwards only using an open hand) to inside of opponent's wrists (forcing opponent's arms out). Make sure that both hands are parallel in height as well as in depth.

    2. Shift (in place) into a left forward bow as your right hand chops to opponent's left ribcage (palm up) simultaneously cocking your left hand to the right of your face (palm toward you).

    3. Shift back (in place) into a left neutral bow as you deliver a left outward chop to opponent's throat (palm down); cocking your right clenched fist to your right hip.

    4. Again shift (in place) into a left forward bow as you drop your left arm horizontally (with palm still facing down) and shoot a right middle knuckle fist (over your left arm) to opponent's solar plexus.

    5. Drop back into a left neutral bow, left front crossover and cover out to 5 o'clock.

    I was having a problem with range in this technique. If you are dropping back to 6 oclock, how do you perform the chop (and the remaining strikes) without first shuffling back in? Has anyone else had a range problem with this technique?
    Its really the way you do the chops. I really don't think of them as chops but more as obstructions caused by stepping back into a neutral from the initial thrust(s). In other words you only want to slip the push and use the FB to the ribs to stop his momentum.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    I always like to start from he beginning. The technique for a "push" as described will not work. I demonstrated "why" in Santa Rosa a couple of weeks ago.
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    Default

    When we covered this technique last night there were some timing issues amongst the students. It seems the neutral, forward, neutral, forward, back to neutral shifting was causing some problems. What I did to help the students was that I changed our position and attack scenario. I started with the attacker leaning their back against the wall. The student doing partings wings was to get out the door. When going to reach for the door the attacker pushed off of the wall into their push. When the attack started to occur, the timing was such that they were able to "bounce" the attacker off of the wall while hitting each stance. The forward bow to "bounce" them off the wall, the neutral bow to stop the forward progression. Whether or not it was the right, wrong, or indifferent way to teach this it got them all moving nito their bow stances.

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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    I just re-read your first post, with your technique write up. I have a few other thoughts, but remember, I am just a knucklehead with a keyboard. I encourage any people with whom I discuss kenpo to refer to their instructor as the 'correct source'.

    The KenpoJournal also lists the outward handswords to the wrists. The other technique to which I referred is 'Twist of Fate'. In the Journal, both are listed as the same attack, with the same initial response/defense. At our school, we learn that Twist of Fate is the correct response for Parting Wings type of attack, except the depth is incorrect - the bad guy is too far away.

    If I have the range, I am able to execute the kick in Twist of Fate.

    The Journal also lists the first strike as a right handsword to the floating ribs. At our school, we do aim higher. This strike is taught as a "punching chop". The strike moves toward the target like a punch, and flips to a chop at the last moment. As I said, I prefer a heel palm strike, with the fingers pointed outward. I can then use my fingers to grab - and I mean grab hard - the pectoral muscle, and rip it toward me. Nasty!

    The 'punching chop' is a counterpart to the 'chopping punch' we see in Glancing Wing - although, I probably shouldn't be pointing that out.

    One more thought on Parting Wings for you. You may recall, that one of the rules of Kenpo, is that when we are "inside" we are supposed to cancel the height zone (think about the kick in Delayed Sword). This technique breaks that rule. We do nothing to cancel height / cancel backup weapons. This will create some problems when executing the technique. Those problems put us in jeopardy.

    If we don't cancel the height zone, we have to do something to prevent the use of a backup weapon ... any ideas?


    And again, please remember that your instructor is the arbitor of what is correct. Me, I ain't nobody.
    I asked the same exact question of my sensei when we were running through this technique.

    The left hand chop to the throat/neck is the move that will cancel most of his weapons. So you have to get there quick. We learned it to check the right arm with the left hand during the right inward chop to the ribs instead of brining it to our ear. But that only cancels out one weapon.

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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    hey all, been a while..

    anyway.. you commented on changing his height zone while on the inside...

    remember.. the upper part of the human body bends at the waist, at the midsection and the neck. Now... if stepping back into a left neutral bow while deflecting both incoming arms.. shifting into a forward bow delivering a blow to the small ribs. Some have described it as a chop... humm not how I would describe it..

    As you step back and deflect the push let your right hand continue into a small orbit (thus not having to stop and start your movement) intercepting your opponent at the small ribs folding them at the mid section with a heel palm. The combination of your strike with the forward bow and their forward momentum is more than enough to change their height zone at the midsection.

    If your attacker does not commit to the push (which could happen on the street) or you step back too far... whatever.. if you find you are out of range.. remember, you can always step drag forward back into range.


    just my two coppers..

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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpregler View Post
    I asked the same exact question of my sensei when we were running through this technique.

    The left hand chop to the throat/neck is the move that will cancel most of his weapons. So you have to get there quick. We learned it to check the right arm with the left hand during the right inward chop to the ribs instead of brining it to our ear. But that only cancels out one weapon.
    I think a chop to the neck might very well cause the aggressor to reach with both hands toward where it hurts (another of the ideas in Kenpo - people hold where it hurts) ... but ... do you think you can get there quick enough? I count that as the third beat of the technique, isn't it? - (1) Block, (2) Right, (3) Left ...

    I'm wondering if there is something we could do earlier, which might interrupt the bad guys thought process??? Hmmmm....

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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    First of all, I'd like to welcome Mr. Bunny back.
    Now is it possible for us to focus on number 1 in the first description of this tech?
    What good is it to occupy the same zone with both of your weapons at the same time?
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    Default Re: Question on Parting Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    First of all, I'd like to welcome Mr. Bunny back.
    Now is it possible for us to focus on number 1 in the first description of this tech?
    What good is it to occupy the same zone with both of your weapons at the same time?

    Thank you for the welcome back.

    second.... much like thrusting wedge both your hands are in the same zone only for the initial deflection which is mirroring your attacker. Once you have dropped your weight you should already be rocking into your forward (modified forward) bow and delivering the blow to the attackers midsection while your left hand is checking your opponents head to make sure you didn't just bend your opponent over to headbutt you in the face while at the same time is cocked for the impending blow to their throat.

    more coppers from me...
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    "Dear Die-ary, today I stuffed some dolls full of dead rats I put in the blender. I'm wondering if, maybe, there really is something wrong with me."

    -JTHM

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