A Question- Leaping Crane

[mord_sith_14]

My class has recently got into a discussion on the technique Leaping Crane. It seems that the kick to the knee of the front leg can create a negative orbit. After some debate we figured out that this can be taken care of by kicking the rear leg instead. After bringing this up to out instructor, he said that kicking the rear leg is not the answer. Maybe this is because you are not really kicking the leg but merely stepping strait down on the knee. My classmates and I are still confused on the technique and wanted to know the opinions of some other kenpoists. Could you help us?

[jfarnsworth]

kick the front leg. It should drive them downwards.

Dont' forget that you have other techniques that give examples when kicking the rear leg.

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

My class has recently got into a discussion on the technique Leaping Crane. It seems that the kick to the knee of the front leg can create a negative orbit. After some debate we figured out that this can be taken care of by kicking the rear leg instead. After bringing this up to out instructor, he said that kicking the rear leg is not the answer. Maybe this is because you are not really kicking the leg but merely stepping strait down on the knee. My classmates and I are still confused on the technique and wanted to know the opinions of some other kenpoists. Could you help us?

Dont kick the knee, strike the nerve base just below it and on top of the back side of the calf.This will help drive them downward.

[Mikael151]

In class, we usually kick to take it easy on our partners. On the street we would modify it to a kind of stomp. When we do practice the stomp, we do it extremely slow and wait for our partner's reaction to feed the rest of the technique.

[madeku]

i dont have this one yet.. but i cant wait to learn it..

but if it creates a negative orbit. have a check ready, work on what if's in that situation. how you could manipulate that hand..


examine the angle are you striking, as well if you kick away from their body, it shouldn't create that orbit, as opposed to straight thru, or towards their body causing the body to turn.. again you're striking a nerve, not plowing thru the leg.. or stomp..

[Doc]

Interesting the focus is on the kick. Kicking the rear leg properly will not create a "negative orbit" (as I understand it), but the beginning of this technique needs much attention before you begin to even think about the kick. I've never seen it done optimally per its design.

[Brother John]

Dont kick the knee, strike the nerve base just below it and on top of the back side of the calf.This will help drive them downward.

Agreed! That's the key. It has to do with where you kick and the trajectory of the kick.

Your Brother
John

[Mikael151]

Interesting the focus is on the kick. Kicking the rear leg properly will not create a "negative orbit" (as I understand it), but the beginning of this technique needs much attention before you begin to even think about the kick. I've never seen it done optimally per its design.

Sir, are you talking about the big "hop" most kenpoists do when performing the opening of this tech?

[Doc]

Sir, are you talking about the big "hop" most kenpoists do when performing the opening of this tech?

The "hop" is near the end of the technique. What about the beginning?

[thedan]

The "hop" is near the end of the technique. What about the beginning?

The beggining is a "leap", from the right foot onto the left. Doc, you have piqued my curiosity here, as I suspect that there are some structural issues with the way most of us (and definately the way I was taught) move into that "crane" stance- ballanced on the left and the right foot chambered at the left knee. How do you do it, sir?

Now, I don't come directly over the left foot and don't bring the right fully back to the left knee to chamber the kick. I try to keep positive engagement in the hip and bring the right up farther, and not nearly as far in, kicking/stomping downward and in to the distal upper leg (kicking to the top of the calf could tend to trap me as he collapses). This is my own interpretation, though, and so is maybe a little suspect (???).

Dan C

[Doc]

The beggining is a "leap", from the right foot onto the left. Doc, you have piqued my curiosity here, as I suspect that there are some structural issues with the way most of us (and definately the way I was taught) move into that "crane" stance- ballanced on the left and the right foot chambered at the left knee. How do you do it, sir?

Now, I don't come directly over the left foot and don't bring the right fully back to the left knee to chamber the kick. I try to keep positive engagement in the hip and bring the right up farther, and not nearly as far in, kicking/stomping downward and in to the distal upper leg (kicking to the top of the calf could tend to trap me as he collapses). This is my own interpretation, though, and so is maybe a little suspect (???).

Dan C

I see. Everyone seems to have been taught the "hop" is the beginning of the technique. Isn't there a strike first? And for the record, you cannot attain structural integrity through lateral movement without a correcting mechanism.

For the sake of discussion, let's forget the "hop" for now, and talk about the block and strike.

[MJS]

Taken from here.


3. LEAPING CRANE (front step through right punch) 1. With feet together, hop to your left (to 10:00) into a right one leg (crane) stance with your right foot cocked to the inside portion of your left knee as your left hand parries inward and your right middle knuckle fist rakes horizontally (toward yourself), striking your opponent's right ribs in the process, if possible. End the move of your right hand by having it cock horizontally across your waist with your right fist clenched, palm up, and to the side of your left hip.
2. Deliver a right snapping knife-edge kick to outside of opponent's right knee to buckle him (in and toward himself).
3. As you plant your right foot (toward 2:00) between opponent's legs, deliver a right back knuckle to opponent's left kidney, utilizing Gravitational Marriage.
4. Immediately deliver a right inward elbow strike (shuffling forward if needed) to opponent's head as your left heel palm strikes to opposite side of opponent's head, causing a sandwiching effect.


I'll admit, I'm a little curious now myself, as to what Doc was referring to. Now, if he put the hop part on the back burner for now and discuss the initial block as Doc said...I'm going to assume we still need to get off line from the punch, no? So, I'm going to take a stab at this and say we're stepping off line for the initial parry/knuckle rake, as written above. From that point, and I'm sure I'm just not seeing it, it almost doesn't make sense to do a hop. Why hop at that point, when you could simply execute a right side kick to the leg?

Mike

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Ok. I'll take the bait.

Let's look at the left inward parry and right horizontal inward raking middle knuckle fist strike.

First the question, if you're hopping in the direction opposite of the parry, that will make it not be a parry, but maybe a place to push off of with the hand. What I mean is that it probably won't deviate much a damaging intent strike.

You better have moved out of the way. Yet you just disengaged, and without any other control mechanism, it's like starting all over again.

Also, if you maintain contact without any controlling mechanism, that point of reference can be used against you.

Thus I would parry from a stable base, then I would move in the same direction as the strike, as to land in a better position to do the kick.

Also note that a strike that just rakes in that direction and in that target might just spin the guy in your direction slightly, since instead of bending over, the reaction to a it on the ribs is to collapse slightly over them to the side to protect them, i.e bend at the trunk, like doing a side abdominal crunch, covering with the elbow and maybe the left arm.

This most probably would make the attacker's footwork move away from you in a 4:30 direction (in relation to your 12:00 at starting point).

So Doc, how do you do it?

Do you double factor at the beginning using right outward parry and BAM the left into a block or parry?

Do you then, a la Attacking Mace, strike inwardly at them ribs while stepping off to 10:30 to a braced index?

Do you then right kick at leg target to drop the guy?

Then move in and strike with a right hammer or back knuckle to the kidney area targets? Maybe with the left punch?

Then move in with double palm outward forward indexes for the elbow sandwich?

This is to my understanding the way I would do it better conforming to the your statutes of a Default technique. I think it is a bit better than parrying and kicking without stable base.

Thanks for your help, Doc!

Juan M. Mercado

[Brother John]

I see. Everyone seems to have been taught the "hop" is the beginning of the technique. Isn't there a strike first? And for the record, you cannot attain structural integrity through lateral movement without a correcting mechanism.

For the sake of discussion, let's forget the "hop" for now, and talk about the block and strike.

Sir,
as my brother Michael pointed out, I'd always thought that it Began with the hop & block... sure you're moving in the opposite direction of the blocking action, but I'd always thought of it more as a checking block as your maneuver fed the raking strike to the ribs on your way through.

LEAPING CRANE (front step through right punch) 1. With feet together, hop to your left (to 10:00) into a right one leg (crane) stance with your right foot cocked to the inside portion of your left knee as your left hand parries inward and your right middle knuckle fist rakes horizontally (toward yourself), striking your opponent's right ribs in the process, if possible. End the move of your right hand by having it cock horizontally across your waist with your right fist clenched, palm up, and to the side of your left hip.

that's how I learned it as well.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I was thinking that the purpose of the action was to deviate and not deflect.

So are you saying to block and strike, THEN hop to the crane at 10:00?
Just wanting to get a feel for your take on this.

Thanks

Your Brother
John

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

Sir,
as my brother Michael pointed out, I'd always thought that it Began with the hop & block... sure you're moving in the opposite direction of the blocking action, but I'd always thought of it more as a checking block as your maneuver fed the raking strike to the ribs on your way through.

that's how I learned it as well.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I was thinking that the purpose of the action was to deviate and not deflect.

So are you saying to block and strike, THEN hop to the crane at 10:00?
Just wanting to get a feel for your take on this.

Thanks

Your Brother
John

John,

I have taught this tech several ways, including the version you listed.
If you get a chance look at some of Mr. Parkers videos on this.

[MJS]

Sir,
as my brother Michael pointed out, I'd always thought that it Began with the hop & block... sure you're moving in the opposite direction of the blocking action, but I'd always thought of it more as a checking block as your maneuver fed the raking strike to the ribs on your way through.

that's how I learned it as well.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I was thinking that the purpose of the action was to deviate and not deflect.

So are you saying to block and strike, THEN hop to the crane at 10:00?
Just wanting to get a feel for your take on this.

Thanks

Your Brother
John

Bold part mine. See, this is what I said in my post too, and I'll admit, I'm a bit confused on this now. To me, it just doesn't seem right to do any hop if we've already stepped. If we don't do it from the beginning and do it after the initial parry/rake, it seems like a waste of movement to hop and then kick, when we can just fire off a kick w/o the hop.

Mike

[Jim Hanna]

Taken from here.


3. LEAPING CRANE (front step through right punch) 1. With feet together, hop to your left (to 10:00) into a right one leg (crane) stance with your right foot cocked to the inside portion of your left knee as your left hand parries inward and your right middle knuckle fist rakes horizontally (toward yourself), striking your opponent's right ribs in the process, if possible. End the move of your right hand by having it cock horizontally across your waist with your right fist clenched, palm up, and to the side of your left hip.
2. Deliver a right snapping knife-edge kick to outside of opponent's right knee to buckle him (in and toward himself).
3. As you plant your right foot (toward 2:00) between opponent's legs, deliver a right back knuckle to opponent's left kidney, utilizing Gravitational Marriage.
4. Immediately deliver a right inward elbow strike (shuffling forward if needed) to opponent's head as your left heel palm strikes to opposite side of opponent's head, causing a sandwiching effect.


I'll admit, I'm a little curious now myself, as to what Doc was referring to. Now, if he put the hop part on the back burner for now and discuss the initial block as Doc said...I'm going to assume we still need to get off line from the punch, no? So, I'm going to take a stab at this and say we're stepping off line for the initial parry/knuckle rake, as written above. From that point, and I'm sure I'm just not seeing it, it almost doesn't make sense to do a hop. Why hop at that point, when you could simply execute a right side kick to the leg?

Mike

I watched Mr John Sepulveda execute this technique. In your write up you have the side kick following the middle knuckle rake--basically step 2 of the technique. Mr Sepulvdea does the hop, parry, middle knuckle rake, kick to the knee all in one step--or at least it was done so fast that it looked like one step. I personally liked the timing. Its the kick that gets the job done. Its the hop that keeps you from getting punched.

The parry and middle knuckle rake are first learned in Tracy's Kenpo via "Guarding the Wall" and "Parting Waves". In those versions, we step, parry, and middle knuckle rake while planted in a stance.

The hop reminds me of some of the stuff that I have seen in Kosho Kenpo. There is alot of hopping/leaping in the "Evasion" portion of Kosho.

BTW, I watched some young Kosho practitioners do some of the evasion footwork. They moved like greased lightning--very impressive.

Jim

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

I dont hop, I step into a one leged stance

[akskarate1]

In stead of a hopping motion, I always looked it like a dropping movement like in wings of silk. Then follow up with the knife edge kick to the front leg, important not to lean back as you are kicking. Continue to follow through with downward back fist to the center of the back to check there depth. Then do the rest of the tech.

[JamesB]

I believe the argument against leaping is this:

kenpo teaches one to strike from a solid base. Leaping and striking whilst in the air, or whilst one foot is off the ground violates the concept that has been taught previously, that one should have both feet rooted to the floor (and aligned appropriately of course) to provide structure to the blow.

So instead some people prefer to slip and parry the punch (maybe to a forward-bow?), and strike the attacker whilst in that good solid stance. = much stronger strike is the theory. After the attacker reacts to the strike, we then leap to the zone of sanctury and deliver the stomp kick to the back of the calf.

So we'd still leap, but the timing is different.

thoughts anyone?