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Thread: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

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    Default Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Something I've always enjoyed has been to take a regular "by the book" self defense technique and then head into something that I've learned in my study of Jujutsu, Aikido or Chin-Na. I'm NOT talking about "Filling" some kind of supposed missing gap in the Kenpo curriculum. No, I'm talking about innovating and getting creative with things like sweeps & buckles, joint locks, chokes, takedowns and throws....usually applying them as a suffix. Sort of in lew of crossing out/covering...move into one of these type of skills.

    I was just wondering what people like to do with things like this. Like I said, it's one of my favorite things to do.

    For instance, w/a slight shuffle at the end of Delayed Sword you can easily apply an outside reaping sweep...which is known as "OSoto Gari" in Judo/Jujutsu. (that's a link to a video of just such a throw, performed by a Judo 10th Dan named Ishikawa)

    Another: Sword of Destruction....if you use a similar shuffle as before, at the end of the technique you can apply an inside reaping throw or "Ko Uchi Gari" (link of video by same master)

    Just wondering what others think of this practice and/or IF you have any ideas on other ways to apply these or similar skills w/in Kenpo....Please share.

    Thanks
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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Intersting idea Brother John

    However, I woudn't pick Neither one of those techs to use.

    Delayed Sword and Sword of Destruction both focus on creating distance from the attacker, both use a front snap kick to the groin as a way of keeping the attacker at bay.

    A throw or takedown, on the other hand, is a move made, generally speaking, when distance is taken away from an attacker. So to me...trying to work a takedown in to those techs is going against the purpose of the techs. I'd rather have 10 techniques to fight with than 100 that fight me....yada yada yada....

    Instead, I envision it being worked in a close range tech like Crossing Talons. The attacker is already bent over,you already have control of one of h is arms. Slide your left hand to the attacker's left shoulder and sweep out the right leg while maintaining control of the right arm.

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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    Something I've always enjoyed has been to take a regular "by the book" self defense technique and then head into something that I've learned in my study of Jujutsu, Aikido or Chin-Na. I'm NOT talking about "Filling" some kind of supposed missing gap in the Kenpo curriculum. No, I'm talking about innovating and getting creative with things like sweeps & buckles, joint locks, chokes, takedowns and throws....usually applying them as a suffix. Sort of in lew of crossing out/covering...move into one of these type of skills.

    I was just wondering what people like to do with things like this. Like I said, it's one of my favorite things to do.

    For instance, w/a slight shuffle at the end of Delayed Sword you can easily apply an outside reaping sweep...which is known as "OSoto Gari" in Judo/Jujutsu. (that's a link to a video of just such a throw, performed by a Judo 10th Dan named Ishikawa)

    Another: Sword of Destruction....if you use a similar shuffle as before, at the end of the technique you can apply an inside reaping throw or "Ko Uchi Gari" (link of video by same master)

    Just wondering what others think of this practice and/or IF you have any ideas on other ways to apply these or similar skills w/in Kenpo....Please share.

    Thanks
    Your Brother
    John
    Good concept. Look at all the advanced material,they employ this concept at some level.
    Brad Marshall SP
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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Tis one of my favorite things, as well. In my kenpo history, I DID a whole chapter of my life, in which I dumped the kenpo extensions and cover-outs, and replaced them with throws, take-downs and controls, ending in jointlock submissions, chokes, or pins. It was a sneaky way, thought I, of increasing the intuitive knowledge of judo/jujutsu in students. Rather then having a seperate chapter in the book, or having to go elsewhere, they could get the info while learning the SD techs.

    Lessons were divided into "isolation" then "synthesis". For example, if working Delayed Sword to an Osoto to a wirstlock ground control to arrest position, we would work counter grabbing skills in isolation (drills about finding his hand with yours, wherever he snags you), riding forces to depletion (planned backpeddles to let the force of his shove die out, then accelerated to yank him in a kuzushi), blocking drills from horse and boxers stances, hammerfists on focus pads and heavy bags (for the inward block), kicks in floor drills, sparring combos, pads and bags, Osoto & breakfalls (drill them for about 20 minutes), outward handswords on heavy bags and makiwara, wrist locks, manipulating and knee-pinning an opponent who is on the ground in a wristlock, etc. Then, it all gets put together...DS+Osoto+pin with knee & wristlock.

    If you play in the jujittie pool for a bit, you'll find some of the pieces of kenpo techs in there, but with more attttention to the details that make a big difference in performance. The elbow hyper-extension in Glancing Salute is jujutsu; the wristlocks and escapes are watered down jujutsu; lots of Danzan Ryu in kenpo, folks just don't know to look for it.

    Had a 10-ish year spell of working in a "focus group" with instructors from other systems...some kenpo, some kenpo breakoffs, japanese and brazilian jujutsu, judo, JKD, Muay Thai, etc. The core of the group, however, was kenpo (and kenpo cousins...kajukenbo, limalama, Sam Pai, and TAI) and jujutsu & a Taekwondo/Hwarangdo dude. So we pooled our stuff, re-wrote the entire self-defense technique criteria for kenpo to include this grafting of new extensions from jujutsu/judo, and gave it a fancy oriental name: Got the kanji for "group of people who practice hand-based martial arts"...Chinese pronunciation was too difficult for our white-boy mouths, so we went with the Japanese "Kembudo-Kai Kempo-Jujutsu". We went with the "m" spelling over "n", because there was much ado about the N being a misprint that just stuck around, and suffixed "jujutsu" to the title, since jujutsu was being suffixed to the technique requirements.

    I copied the look of the cover of Big Red...just replaced the IKKA logo with the kembudo-kai crest in CorelDraw, and stuffed the notebook in my bag. Mr. P. saw it one day, grilled me about it. He was -- if I read him right -- a little bit impressed (though it could have been me seeing what I wanted to see)...someone had bothered to hunt down disparate kenpo roots from various generations, and see what would happen if we targeted a different end point with a combination of older and newer toolboxes. "As long as you don't call it Ed Parker's Kenpo". OK. I would never think of doing that; it's why we named it KBK/Kembudo-Kai.

    Coming back to EPAK, I still use a lot of the KBK material...some of it was just too good not to.

    Dave
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Quote Originally Posted by Carol Kaur View Post
    Intersting idea Brother John

    However, I woudn't pick Neither one of those techs to use.

    Delayed Sword and Sword of Destruction both focus on creating distance from the attacker, both use a front snap kick to the groin as a way of keeping the attacker at bay.

    A throw or take down, on the other hand, is a move made, generally speaking, when distance is taken away from an attacker. So to me...trying to work a take down in to those techs is going against the purpose of the techs. I'd rather have 10 techniques to fight with than 100 that fight me....yada yada yada....

    Instead, I envision it being worked in a close range tech like Crossing Talons. The attacker is already bent over,you already have control of one of h is arms. Slide your left hand to the attacker's left shoulder and sweep out the right leg while maintaining control of the right arm.
    True
    The Yellow Belt material is established to teach the Kenpo novice to create distance in order to be able to get away. But I don't believe in always seeing the Yellow Belt material through "yellow belt eyes". Once you gain enough experience that you can start thinking about suffixing/grafting ANYthing...you're much more accomplished and can create or close gaps with greater skill and ability. Throws/Sweeps and Takedowns are often a result of the attacker closing the gap on you. That's true, but again...that's also a novic-way of seeing them. The advanced student uses throws/take-downs just as much to attack as well as to respond. In fact, my Aikido sensei told me that he feels that "Your American Kenpo techniques are the Ultimate 'irimi'....and that's the MOST difficult and decisive part of doing any Aikido technique." The word "Irimi" literally means "Entering"...its the skill of being able to get into and dominate the 'personal space' of the attackers central sphere. Once you do that and connect with his center, you take over it's action by blending with it and then it's yours...to slam about as you wish. Irimi is the skill of setting up a throw/take down. Without it, no throw works. Our Kenpo techniques leave us at an angular advantage and our attackers at an equal disadvantage...and we can use that to enter and set up the throw.

    I don't see these maneuvers as 'working against' the techniques I append them too....but to add a new option that can be used with them. For instance, lets say that your tech (Delayed Sword) hit home decently, but didn't drop the guy....maybe it hurt him or stunned him a moment, but you're in an enclosed area (difficult to run immediately) and there's another attacker....you must place attacker #1 in a position that will make him less likely to recover well enough to re-attack. The Osoto Gari is an excellent option...it drops him WHAM on the ground, maybe making it possible to drop him down some steps or onto a rock or chair...etc, or if you're good at it, you can place him in the path of the next attacker. Throws/sweeps are incredibly damaging. Not many punches result in an injury, but a Fall.... a fall involves their body weight being drawn by gravity, a 200 pound attacker can be intimidating, but as the old saying goes.....the bigger they are, the harder they fall. More people die every year from falls than from gun shots. More broken bones occur from falls than from car accidents every year. Osoto Gari works due to simple leverage and can easily be applied w/out the use of much strength against an attacker twice your size.

    I'm not advocating changing anyones curriculum.
    Just putting more tools into your arsenal.

    Your right though, a Kenpo beginner (yellow) should first build their skill at creating space. But then a Kenpo beginner shouldn't be thinking, at all, about grafting & suffixing....unless lead to do so by their instructor I suppose. When speaking of grafting/suffixing and becoming 'creative/innovative'....I assume I'm speaking to experienced Kenpoists/martial artists.

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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Tis one of my favorite things, as well. In my kenpo history, I DID a whole chapter of my life, in which I dumped the kenpo extensions and cover-outs, and replaced them with throws, take-downs and controls, ending in jointlock submissions, chokes, or pins. It was a sneaky way, thought I, of increasing the intuitive knowledge of judo/jujutsu in students. Rather then having a seperate chapter in the book, or having to go elsewhere, they could get the info while learning the SD techs.

    Lessons were divided into "isolation" then "synthesis". For example, if working Delayed Sword to an Osoto to a wirstlock ground control to arrest position, we would work counter grabbing skills in isolation (drills about finding his hand with yours, wherever he snags you), riding forces to depletion (planned backpeddles to let the force of his shove die out, then accelerated to yank him in a kuzushi), blocking drills from horse and boxers stances, hammerfists on focus pads and heavy bags (for the inward block), kicks in floor drills, sparring combos, pads and bags, Osoto & breakfalls (drill them for about 20 minutes), outward handswords on heavy bags and makiwara, wrist locks, manipulating and knee-pinning an opponent who is on the ground in a wristlock, etc. Then, it all gets put together...DS+Osoto+pin with knee & wristlock.

    If you play in the jujittie pool for a bit, you'll find some of the pieces of kenpo techs in there, but with more attttention to the details that make a big difference in performance. The elbow hyper-extension in Glancing Salute is jujutsu; the wristlocks and escapes are watered down jujutsu; lots of Danzan Ryu in kenpo, folks just don't know to look for it.

    Coming back to EPAK, I still use a lot of the KBK material...some of it was just too good not to.

    Dave
    I.....

    I think I LOVE YOU!!


    Thanks for sharing that!!!
    I'd LOVE to know more about what you developed. Could you hook a brother up????

    Thanks for sharing on this. It's currently a passion of mine.

    Your Brother
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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    I.....

    I think I LOVE YOU!!


    Thanks for sharing that!!!
    I'd LOVE to know more about what you developed. Could you hook a brother up????

    Thanks for sharing on this. It's currently a passion of mine.

    Your Brother
    John
    The Sam Pai 3rd degree I absconded with for the project is interested, after a layoff, in taping the material for reference...he wants to get back into teaching it. He's in Southern Cal and I'm in Northern; plus, his mother just passed away (saturday), so we're going to wait a month or two...but we plan on taping the gig when I'm down there on a visit. I'll pipe you a copy, on the condition that you don't put any on youtube if my bald spot shows up on camera
    camilyon likes this.
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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    I'll pipe you a copy, on the condition that you don't put any on youtube if my bald spot shows up on camera
    MUCH appreciated sir!!!
    ....and promise given.

    I'll show you my bald spot if you show me yours...

    I call mine MY HEAD!

    Please keep me abreast. (or if you would, shoot me your phone#, I'll check in with you from time to time)
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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Does that bald spot ever get rubbed for luck?
    My belly does from time to time.

    Its funny how none of us want our material on u tube with out our permission.Me included!!!!

    I am also concerned about seeing it on E-Bay with out getting a royalty check.
    Or having someone teach the material I share without the full understanding of the concept I am presenting.
    Brad Marshall SP
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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    My sensei is even stricter. He said I'm welcome to take notes, capture video, whatever it takes...but he doesn't want any of it to go on the internet in any form.

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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Quote Originally Posted by Carol Kaur View Post
    My sensei is even stricter. He said I'm welcome to take notes, capture video, whatever it takes...but he doesn't want any of it to go on the internet in any form.
    Its because people use this to teach both themselves and others.
    I mainly teach one on one, or seminars. Therefore I allow the taping on a very regulated basis.
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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    For me, it's strictly an ego thing. Before my accident, if I worked out a couplle times a week for a couple weeks, the rust would fall right off, and I could even reach a point where I would think to my critical A-hole self, "Not bad...not bad at all".

    Since then, however, I get a good day, followed by a lot of pain and several weeks of not being able to train. I need surgery on my right knee, right shoulder, and in my neck and back. But I'm a coward, and won't do it. Net effect: On my good days, I'm all rusted up...and can't get enough good days in a row to knock the rust off and get that "pop-zing" back. If I lose the rust, I'm all over being on youtube, for the good and the bad of it. Rusted up and sticky, however, nope. Too vain. Too harsh on myself for what should have been done better.

    When it comes time to tape this thing, I'm basically gonna knock back a couple shots of tequila and some percocet to disorient myself from my own meatbag, and go like hell, knowing I'll be paying for it for like a month. Can't help hurting, but can help looking bad doing it.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Quote Originally Posted by Carol Kaur View Post
    Intersting idea Brother John

    However, I woudn't pick Neither one of those techs to use.

    Delayed Sword and Sword of Destruction both focus on creating distance from the attacker, both use a front snap kick to the groin as a way of keeping the attacker at bay.



    I'm not sure I agree. The idea is to be able to do this with any tech. The transition may be tricky but that is the whole idea... you figure it out and make it happen.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    For me, it's strictly an ego thing. Before my accident, if I worked out a couplle times a week for a couple weeks, the rust would fall right off, and I could even reach a point where I would think to my critical A-hole self, "Not bad...not bad at all".

    Since then, however, I get a good day, followed by a lot of pain and several weeks of not being able to train. I need surgery on my right knee, right shoulder, and in my neck and back. But I'm a coward, and won't do it. Net effect: On my good days, I'm all rusted up...and can't get enough good days in a row to knock the rust off and get that "pop-zing" back. If I lose the rust, I'm all over being on youtube, for the good and the bad of it. Rusted up and sticky, however, nope. Too vain. Too harsh on myself for what should have been done better.

    When it comes time to tape this thing, I'm basically gonna knock back a couple shots of tequila and some percocet to disorient myself from my own meatbag, and go like hell, knowing I'll be paying for it for like a month. Can't help hurting, but can help looking bad doing it.

    D.
    Tequila + youtube = lawsuit.
    We have to hook up. Say like in Can Cun
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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    I was just wondering what people like to do with things like this. Like I said, it's one of my favorite things to do.
    Brother John,

    Absotively! You're familiar with my background in Hapkido. I've developed "school" extensions for the the techniques in our system of Kenpo that incorporate throws, joint manipulations and takedowns, all from the two different systems of Hapkido I've studied. More often than not I'll go from Kenpo to Hapkido and back to Kenpo. The two systems blend beautifully.

    At the recent Kenpo in the Carolinas I conducted a short segment on joint manipulation (never enough time, and I organized the darn thing!). We briefly touched on how you can find opportunitites for these things in the midst of Kenpo techs, focusing on dynamic vs. static manipulations.

    Great thoughts, John... and Dave, we gotta tok!

    Respects,
    Bill Parsons
    Triangle Kenpo Institute
    www.trianglekenpo.com

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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    No, I'm talking about innovating and getting creative with things like sweeps & buckles, joint locks, chokes, takedowns and throws....usually applying them as a suffix. Sort of in lew of crossing out/covering...move into one of these type of skills.

    For instance, w/a slight shuffle at the end of Delayed Sword you can easily apply an outside reaping sweep...which is known as "OSoto Gari" in Judo/Jujutsu. (

    Another: Sword of Destruction....if you use a similar shuffle as before, at the end of the technique you can apply an inside reaping throw or "Ko Uchi Gari" (link of video by same master)

    Just wondering what others think of this practice and/or IF you have any ideas on other ways to apply these or similar skills w/in Kenpo....Please share.
    I wouldn't add a throw on to either of those waza's.

    I do add on hand combinations.

    I want something very effective, and very fast, with no compromise of time or of my own "being open" too long.

    DOC

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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    I wouldn't add a throw on to either of those waza's.
    I do add on hand combinations.
    I want something very effective, and very fast, with no compromise of time or of my own "being open" too long.
    DOC
    Technically, I didn't suggest a throw be grafted onto either, but a sweep.

    So you think that throws/sweeps/take downs have a compromise of time?
    You think they leave you open too long? How so?

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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    True
    Once you gain enough experience that you can start thinking about suffixing/grafting ANYthing...you're much more accomplished and can create or close gaps with greater skill and ability. Throws/Sweeps and Takedowns are often a result of the attacker closing the gap on you. That's true, but again...that's also a novic-way of seeing them. The advanced student uses throws/take-downs just as much to attack as well as to respond.
    Actually I do disagree (respectfully) with all of the above.

    It's NOT a novice way of seeing anything, but a "learned" way of seeing.

    You must always ENTER to distance 2 or 1 to throw, sweep or do any take down.

    That means YOU are just a vulnerable as he is.

    From distance 5 and 4 YOU can easily control him and all targets with your set-ups and your covertness and your quick attack and evasions.

    DOC
    An old juijitsu guy with much Shiai competition and winning under his belt for 13 years BEFORE he started his Kenpo in 1970.

  30. #19
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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    Technically, I didn't suggest a throw be grafted onto either, but a sweep.

    So you think that throws/sweeps/take downs have a compromise of time?
    You think they leave you open too long? How so?
    You compromise your escape.

    You compromise your distancing.

    You compromise your centered balance and movement capabilities.

    You, when compared to hand usuage, compromise time taken to execute the move by a minimum factor of 3X's.

    DOC

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    Default Re: Grafting/suffixing on "jujutsu" type maneuvers onto SD-Techs

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    You must always ENTER to distance 2 or 1 to throw, sweep or do any take down.
    That means YOU are just a vulnerable as he is.

    From distance 5 and 4 YOU can easily control him and all targets with your set-ups and your covertness and your quick attack and evasions.
    DOC
    Anytime you are w/in fighting distance you are just as vulnerable as the other guy.
    If you can reach him, he can reach you. That goes the same for throws/sweeps and buckles as it does for striking/kicking...etc. (Unless you've got a greater than 8 inch reach advantage I guess....but I'd just rather not fight Shaq...least....not without attacking his knees first I suppose.

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    John
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