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Thread: Useless techniques?

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    Default Useless techniques?

    I'm sure all of you have had this experience at some point - you are learning new techniques, and there's one that just doesn't make any sense at all. You think to yourself, 'this would never work in a real situation'. But, you have to learn this technique as it is part of the material for your current rank etc.
    Do any of you have a technique or two that you struggle with in this way? And if so, what, if anything, do you do about it?

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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    There are no useless techniques, all of them teach something of value.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    There are no useless techniques, all of them teach something of value.
    I agree 100%

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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    There are no useless techniques, all of them teach something of value.
    I agree as well. I still have trouble with some tech's, but, I do realize that even if I don't see it, there is a concept that they are teaching. Try to look at the tech from 3 points of view, and ask your instructor questions about what concerns you. Your instructor is not going to be insulted if you ask questions about what you think are a tech's weak areas.
    And that guy in class you like to see get hit-make sure he's right next to you when you bring up those questions, lol!
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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    i dont think there are "useless" techniques... maybe unusefull techniques or impractical techniques.. I never looked at parting wings seriously till someone (cant remember) brought up one grappling move that you grab with the arms free, and hook a leg and take them down face first... as well as if someone's going to lift you up to suplex you or something.. so its not totally illogical to grab and not pin their arms.

    Thrusting Prongs is another one that has never made sense to me.. why am i putting both of my weapons in the same place!?! as well as leaving my head/face wide open to a possible unintentional headbutt? not to mention if he bends before he collapses his arms from the stop, he could easily grab mine.

    and while we dont do Delayed sword in the AKKI.. i think it makes sense from a lapel grab (because if you pin, you dont have to worry about the above/below the elbow rule, and can strike the base of the bicep, which hurts like a mother and could bring them down), but not a fully dedicated punch. so i practice that technique at home even tho its not a requirement. as well as altering the kick to a knee.

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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    Everyone is different. There are some techniques that you will experience that do not feel natural to you...and sometimes never will. They do however, work for others.

    Each technique teaches valuable principles. It is extremely unlikely that any given technique would be executed "by the numbers" on the street. There's just too many unpredictable variables. The important thing is that you learn the principles behind the technique.

    That being said, sure...there are techniques that I favor over others. There are some that I could never imagine myself doing. Everyone does. We're all anatomically and physiologically different. What works for me may not necessarily work for you, BUT the applied principles work for everyone.

    If you're not planning on instructing, I say in the end take what you like and forget the rest; in the interest of self defense it makes sense to focus on what techniques work for you. But, if you do plan on instructing then you need to continue to practice all the techniques so that you can teach them to others...again, they may not work for you but they do for others. And, don't forget...the focus should be on the principles taught. IMHO
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    There are no useless techniques, all of them teach something of value.
    I totally agree with that statement. Sometimes it just takes time to find the lesson in that technique.
    "Fear is the true opiate of combat."

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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    I felt that way, to an extent, about the RAM techniques. After an hour on the mat, in private, with Mr. Planas, my opinion of those techniques has changed significantly. The problem was not the technique, it was my understanding of the technique.

    Keep working.

    Mike

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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    I believe that you have made a valid point. There are techniques that are mostly "fluff" that will not work on the street that are taught by some instructors for the benefit of making money on rank promotions.


    Nelson
    Nelson,

    Could you be more specific? Which techniques do you consider "fluff"?
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    Maybe someone can help me understand what principle I learned from Prance of the Tiger? This sticks out as one of my least favourite techniques.

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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    Quote Originally Posted by execkenpo View Post
    Maybe someone can help me understand what principle I learned from Prance of the Tiger? This sticks out as one of my least favourite techniques.
    Mark,

    I am only asking humbly. Is this how Prance of the Tiger was taught to you?

    http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week39/...eekMedW39.html


    Prance of the Tiger is one of my favorite techniques!
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    Mark,

    I am only asking humbly. Is this how Prance of the Tiger was taught to you?

    http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week39/...eekMedW39.html


    Prance of the Tiger is one of my favorite techniques!
    Pretty close, but I don't execute it nearly as well as he does! The writeup under the technique listing is exactly how Steve teaches it.
    http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1231

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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    One of the techniques that I can't not figure out the priciples of is Entangled Wing. Can someone explain what the purpose of this technique is?
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate View Post
    One of the techniques that I can't not figure out the priciples of is Entangled Wing. Can someone explain what the purpose of this technique is?
    I was taught that it is in response to an outer wrist lock. The setup could be that your defence technique was countered by your opponent with them attempting to lock and throw.

    Hope this is what you were looking for?

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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    Well I have a few that I won’t say they are useless more so that I am UN comfortable doing them. But In the past I have been able to take some of what is being taught in these techs’s and use that in other places.

    Just for an example of a few that I learned something from but would not be my first choice to use for real.

    Thundering Hammers, Begging hands, Reining Claw for example

    TH I tend to be more comfortable on the inside of an attack.

    BH I struggle with that because it just seems un likely that someone would want to tie up two of their weapons to disable two of yours. No real advantage for them.

    RC, well I like that this was one of the first examples of a stance transition. But I struggle with this because it seems to me it would be easy to fake an uppercut then just throw a straight punch. If I have committed to blocking the uppercut it takes time to stop that action and move to some other block. Leaving me exposed to a face strike.

    But maybe some of this is addressed in the more advanced stages of training and this is all just my humble opinion.
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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    Quote Originally Posted by hemi View Post
    But I struggle with this because it seems to me it would be easy to fake an uppercut then just throw a straight punch. If I have committed to blocking the uppercut it takes time to stop that action and move to some other block. Leaving me exposed to a face strike.
    2 suggestions here:

    1. try not to anticipate. rather let the opponent comit to the action, then respond to that action. yes, easier said than done, but practice reading the signs with spontaneous attacks and continuous sparring.

    2. specifically for this, try working with a parner to either throw the uppercut or straight punch, using Raining Claw and Shield and Mace as your defenses. see how easy it is to move from an Ideal Raining Claw to the Even-if Shield and Mace.
    "Rust Never Sleeps" - N.Young.

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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Seabrook:

    You asked me what I would consider "fluff" and I would answer the question is this way.

    Any technique looks impressive on the mat but dosen't work on the street is "fluff." We had a discussion on this forum about grabs from behind and how to react to them. If your move you learned in the dojo dosen't work with "Boris" from the local gym because he grabs too hard your move is "fluff." Fluff moves only work in controlled conditions and are worthless on the street. Actually they are worse than useless because you think albeit wrongly that you know an effective defense and don't find out until too late how wrong you were.

    For example, when I train in SD techs and demonstrate wristgrabs I tell the student not to let me go no matter what. I then demonstrate how to do the counter move correctly and we reverse positions. I won't continue in a move if I feel that the student isn't putting his or her 100% into the technique.

    Years ago when we were practicing a defense against a full Nelson we had our most pumped up student execute the technique on each of us. The arms and legs on this man looked like telephone poles! We all learned an effective counter that worked every time we executed it.

    There ARE bad Kenpo instructors teaching crap that does not work. There are ALSO bad TKD instructors, Judoka's, JKD and JKA sensei's, doing bad technique. What is controversial about this?

    We all need to be less defensive about our "style" and more aware of what seperates the "wheat from the chaff " in everything that we do.

    Nelson

    As BL once put it, "Take what is usefull and develop it from here."
    As you grow as a martial artist your understanding changes, it is more often the person's understanding of the technique that does not allow them to execute the technique.

    I am the first to admit I am not a Bruce Lee, and find a large flaw in his approcah of "Take what is useful and develop it from here". I say give every student every possible tool and them build what works from them, but do not rob them off anything just because one individual can not make a technique work.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    As you grow as a martial artist your understanding changes, it is more often the person's understanding of the technique that does not allow them to execute the technique.
    That is a profound statement....and true, in my experience anyway. There have been techniques that I've "abandoned" in the past due to my lack of understanding and then revisted later in my training only to find that I now like them and find them useful.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    Quote Originally Posted by execkenpo View Post
    I was taught that it is in response to an outer wrist lock. The setup could be that your defence technique was countered by your opponent with them attempting to lock and throw.

    Hope this is what you were looking for?

    I just do not see my self spinning around and trying to hit him in the ribs. It takes too much time and you turn your back on the opponent. If it were an Akido guy I would not event be able to counter by spinning. I would be put on my butt be for I could event say Bob is your uncle.

    I would rather use Twisted Twig if anything. And yea some of you are saying those are for two different things. But we are Kenpoists we can make it work if we have to. By doing Twisted Twig I will still be facing my opponent and I might also be able to get an armbar or break in there before I go for the elbow to the solar plex. If I can get the arm bar I could go into Crossing Talon. The choices are endless.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: Useless techniques?

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate View Post
    I just do not see my self spinning around and trying to hit him in the ribs. It takes too much time and you turn your back on the opponent. If it were an Akido guy I would not event be able to counter by spinning. I would be put on my butt be for I could event say Bob is your uncle.

    I would rather use Twisted Twig if anything. And yea some of you are saying those are for two different things. But we are Kenpoists we can make it work if we have to. By doing Twisted Twig I will still be facing my opponent and I might also be able to get an armbar or break in there before I go for the elbow to the solar plex. If I can get the arm bar I could go into Crossing Talon. The choices are endless.
    wow, i don't even know where to begin with this.
    i have no idea what you've done with entangled wing, but there isn't any spinning, giving your back to your opponent, or much exposure for a take down??? you may want to brush up on the tech a bit.
    next, you got to learn the nature of the attack for each technique in the ideal state before you go try using another technique that is not as effective for that specific attack.
    the attempted figure-4 lock puts you in a different physical position from the reverse wrist press, specifically the angle of the elbow. twisted twig would not be as effective.
    the keys to these 'anti-chin na' techniques are to sense and dissolve the opponent's intention before the lock is set. best way to do this is to follow his direction rather than resist it, and lead him into your response/technique. best way to practice this is first through cooperative training drills like pushing hands and sticky hands, then progress to uncooperative technique practice to make it come 'alive' .
    "Rust Never Sleeps" - N.Young.

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