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Thread: Deflecting Hammer

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    Default Deflecting Hammer

    I could've sworn there was a thread on this already, but I did a search and couldn't find one.

    Deflecting Hammer (Front- Right Front Thrust Kick)
    1. An attacker from 12 o'clock executes a right front thrust kick at your side.

    2. From a right neutral bow, push drag back to 6 o'clock as you simultaneously execute a right downward block against the outside of your attacker's kicking leg. (This block should turn your attacker's back to you and possibly hurt them as you stretch them out.)

    3. Execute a left thrusting check to their right arm (between the shoulder and biceps). As you do this, your right block (still in motion) will cock itself at your side.

    4. Shift (push drag) towards 12 o'clock as you execute a right inward elbow strike to your attacker's face.

    We were playing with this last night and a few things came up. We were discussing the probability that the attacker would likely throw a punch after the kick and that's what the pin is for, but we were all having a hard time making the pin happen before the punch did. The pin ended up being more of a parry, but with the arm in the way, the elbow to the head didn't happen.

    Comments?
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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    Amy, it was discussed somewhere before, because you and me were talking about the right chambering after the block. I was taught that it chambered in the embryonic phase of learning the tech just to deal with the problem you are having- getting that elbow strike off without the pinning arm being in the way. So, if you've went back to doing this one "by the numbers" to fine tune or change it, try bringing the right to chamber at the hip as you parry/check with the left. Then smooth it up and move through the chamber as flow increases. Then just move right past as you get it down pat.

    Your parry/check is to get that arm out of battery so it can't strike and to get it out of the way so you can strike. It is a very hard parry going without pause to a hard pinning check. Like a hard thrusting inward block that hooks out instead of in. It also checks his forward momentum, delaying his plant so he doesn't get to reestablish his base before your strike lands when the tech is run at full speed and force, with full flow. It follows up with the block, which should rake back at 45', to check his depth and width- and unless he wants to just collapse, his height as well- so his weapons are all nullified (standing on one leg, the other hanging in space, can't reach with the off side arm and you are pinning the near arm, and we step in checking his supporting leg as we pass the point of articulation, so he can't pivot his body and if he does drop we can guide him down where we want him-- what's an a-hole to do?). All yours, baby!

    Dan C

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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    The check should strike the attacker before their foot hits the ground. This should check them off before they throw the Left. If your talking about the Right which can be thrown with the kick, the hammering check works well on the Right.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodoc View Post
    The check should strike the attacker before their foot hits the ground. This should check them off before they throw the Left. If your talking about the Right which can be thrown with the kick, the hammering check works well on the Right.
    Wouldn't your initial move off the line of attack as you block his leg nullify anything he attempts with his left? This would allow you to pin his right, regardless. Otherwise, the tech is blown.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    Hi Amy,

    The problem I see here is the initial move off to 6 I teach it as a move off to 7 with a good downward block to the leg towards 3 ocklock basically nullifies everything there back is turned no possibility of a left arm swinging towards you the right arm will want to try and maintain balance and more than likely move towards 3 .

    Finish with the inward elbow as you stated.

    Amrik

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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    A couple of thoughts ....

    We are taught this technique from the 'Passive Defensive' position; both hands are up. Talk with your hands, Keep your hands above your opponents. This places the hands in a better starting position for learning this technique.

    If you are going to run this technique from a natural stance (e.g. hands down), be certain to not raise your right hand higher than your solar plexus. Any higher motion will introduce unnecessary travel and time.

    The right block is on the diagonal line (from 10:30 to 4:30), utilizing a frictional pull, to stretch out the attackers stance, as opposed to the write up, which suggests blocking toward 3:00 O'clock, turning the attackers' back. When the attacker is properly stretched out, you will find their head is significantly lower than when everybody is playing nice on the training mat.

    Lastly, we are constantly warned of false travel on the elbow. We are taught to execute the block so the arm is extended far behind the body; bend the elbow to cock the fist at your hip (or grab your gi); move the elbow from its rearward position to parallel your body. Be careful to not move your fist during this strike (it only rolls over from palm up, to palm down).

    I'm sure there's more - but it is difficult to type clearly the meaning.

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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    The right punch is what we were having trouble with last night. The guy was coming at us full speed with the right kick, followed immediately by the right punch. There was no way to do the elbow to the face at that point (cuz his arm was in the way)- we were forced to elbow low.....but it would be hard to switch that up that fast mid-air before the guy was right there next to you. Guess this tech. is written for (and assuming) there is no right punch?
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    Default

    The attacker should be on an angle compared to you standing your ground. The attacker would be puching slightly behind them. If you don't get your desired pressing check you should have parried off (if that's what you were doing) and thrown a right thrusting palm heel to their gord. That way it gives you a longer range weapon.

    Although, remember where your dance of darkness, unwinding pendulum, retreating pendulum comes from. That gives you 3 different ranges or variations to work from.

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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
    The right punch is what we were having trouble with last night. The guy was coming at us full speed with the right kick, followed immediately by the right punch. There was no way to do the elbow to the face at that point (cuz his arm was in the way)- we were forced to elbow low.....but it would be hard to switch that up that fast mid-air before the guy was right there next to you. Guess this tech. is written for (and assuming) there is no right punch?
    Huk taught it to me assuming the Right punch would be thrown. The downward block continues back and the elbow bends to a cocked position at the waist. The elbow then strikes the open target (face/ribs) and since it travels from the cocked position there should be plenty of time to read the open target.

    If I do a hard downward block at an angle to the leg they are turned and the punch misses. If I do a riding Parry/block the attacker lands close and I utilise borrowed force to strike the open target.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
    The right punch is what we were having trouble with last night. The guy was coming at us full speed with the right kick, followed immediately by the right punch. There was no way to do the elbow to the face at that point (cuz his arm was in the way)- we were forced to elbow low.....but it would be hard to switch that up that fast mid-air before the guy was right there next to you. Guess this tech. is written for (and assuming) there is no right punch?
    I was taught that the elbow goes to any open target depending on the height and position of the attacker. If the attacker is shorter, the elbow can go to the face, if the attacker is taller, to the ribs. Can this work for the punch/no punch option? If you go low, check high, if you go high, check low? If you've parried the kick, should it also throw off the line of attack so the puncher would have to adjust?
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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    Here is how I was taught. Yep its not my best video but oh well, flame on, LOL.
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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by florida_kenpo View Post
    Here is how I was taught. Yep its not my best video but oh well, flame on, LOL.

    Thanks for the clip. Hope you don't think is a flame. Just trying to compare and contrast.

    The rear crossover kick is interesting. Does it turn the attackers body too much off angle? We do a right thrust kick.

    In the first run through, you are using your elbow as a takedown across your own centerline. That is not how I was taught the elbow strike.

    In the Second Run through, your elbow strike stayed more on the 6-12 line, which is the way I learned the elbow strike. Although, I'm not sure why your dummy fell down to your 9 O'clock line (???).

    As mentioned above, we do not learn this technique from a fighting position, but rather the 'short neutral' or natural stance .

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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    Thank you for the video.
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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodoc View Post
    If I do a hard downward block at an angle to the leg they are turned and the punch misses. If I do a riding Parry/block the attacker lands close and I utilise borrowed force to strike the open target.

    Jeff
    My thought was that this is supposed to merely deflect, not totally re-direct. I always thought it was better to move offline, but then it was brought to my attention that this is a different move.

    The problem, as Tara mentioned, was that the punch was parried, but at our shoulder by the time the attacker's foot landed, so there was essentially no room to elbow the head.

    Oh, and we do this one for a front thrust kick, not a side thrust. That may make a difference as well. The pendulum tech. are for a side thrust.

    And thanks for the clip Martin. Good to see you in action.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    The rear crossover kick is interesting. Does it turn the attackers body too much off angle? We do a right thrust kick.

    Actually no ... the initial "deflection" requires just a minor adjustment to his leg to make him move right into the elbow. We just follow the deflection up the circle and his head meets your elbow.

    In the first run through, you are using your elbow as a takedown across your own centerline. That is not how I was taught the elbow strike.

    It felt good at the time? I was also taught a different method at first. Try it and see how it feels to you ... feels good to me.

    In the Second Run through, your elbow strike stayed more on the 6-12 line, which is the way I learned the elbow strike. Although, I'm not sure why your dummy fell down to your 9 O'clock line (???).

    If he would have stayed online he probably would have eaten the elbow strike. He fell of to 9 for his own safety. When you do this technique off a "side thrust kick" and the minor re-direct deflection it happens VERY quickly. Try it and let me know how it works out for you.

    Thanks for the feedback I am open minded enough to explore a different method in person after all to feel is to believe.

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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    My thought was that this is supposed to merely deflect, not totally re-direct. I always thought it was better to move offline,
    It is always better to move off line if possible against a kick. If he's in too close for you to move off line, as with a teep kick, the block and pressing check would deliver simultanously, like a universal block. For the front thrust kick, rake the block back at 45' and force his foot to try to plant forward, bringing his head forward into your strike.

    The problem, as Tara mentioned, was that the punch was parried, but at our shoulder by the time the attacker's foot landed, so there was essentially no room to elbow the head.
    Again, move to the side and bring the right from the block, through a chamber and up. This will clear his right arm and your left so you can get the right elbow strike.

    At full speed, the elbow strike should about decapitate him before his foot lands.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    Deflecting Hammer (Front- Right Front Thrust Kick)
    1. An attacker from 12 o'clock executes a right front thrust kick at your side.

    2. From a right neutral bow, push drag back to 6 o'clock as you simultaneously execute a right downward block against the outside of your attacker's kicking leg. (This block should turn your attacker's back to you and possibly hurt them as you stretch them out.)

    3. Execute a left thrusting check to their right arm (between the shoulder and biceps). As you do this, your right block (still in motion) will cock itself at your side.

    4. Shift (push drag) towards 12 o'clock as you execute a right inward elbow strike to your attacker's face.


    To me the thrusting check breaks the momentum built up by the initial deflection and also breaks that circle. Why not just continue it?

    Also its called deflecting hammer not blocking hammer for a reason

    But that's just my 2 cents.
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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by florida_kenpo View Post
    To me the thrusting check breaks the momentum built up by the initial deflection and also breaks that circle. Why not just continue it?

    Also its called deflecting hammer not blocking hammer for a reason

    But that's just my 2 cents.
    The "Deflecting" as I leared it was due to an outside downward parry.
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    Default Re: Deflecting Hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    My thought was that this is supposed to merely deflect, not totally re-direct. I always thought it was better to move offline, but then it was brought to my attention that this is a different move.

    The problem, as Tara mentioned, was that the punch was parried, but at our shoulder by the time the attacker's foot landed, so there was essentially no room to elbow the head.

    Oh, and we do this one for a front thrust kick, not a side thrust. That may make a difference as well. The pendulum tech. are for a side thrust.

    And thanks for the clip Martin. Good to see you in action.

    --Amy
    Personally I deflect with only a slight angle change of the attacker so that their momentum continues forward, the Left hand either uses the opponents forward momentum to pin their arm or parries the punch. The Right arm drops down in a forward block style but because of the angle this is more like a cross between a block and a parry, no need to step off line because of the deflection of this downward Right arm. The arm continues in an arc till your fist is behind you, arm at about a 45 degree angle to vertical. Your elbow then folds the fist to the hip (a standard classic cocked position) and the elbow cuts the circle straight to the open target. Your opponents chest or face should just in front of you as the elbow hits and they have not yet landed their leg. When timed correctly (as I see it) you will need to take care not to hurt someone who has thrown a truly committed attack. If the attack is not fully comitted shuffle to adjust. I don't step to 7:00 because I want the attacker to just barely miss and land on my weapon. I want the parry to be at shoulder level by the time the foot lands because my elbow strikes before their foot lands when they are still in front of me.

    Jeff

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