Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: Short 2 question

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Elk Grove, CA
    Posts
    4,018
    Thanks
    1,163
    Thanked 913 Times in 561 Posts

    Default Short 2 question

    This is another difference of opinion. Again, I'll teach it how he wants, but I'd like to know where others are coming from.

    Two questions: 1. Upward block, middle knuckle rake: Where does the rake start and end? Throat to groin or sternum to belly button? (Or do you think something else?)

    2. The move right after the second strike mentioned above: When you turn to a cat stance for the kick. Transitory universal block to a downward block? Or does the left hand start at the shoulder and move into the downward block?

    I'll save my opinion until I hear from some others.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sarnia, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,774
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 1,263 Times in 801 Posts

    Default Re: Short 2 question

    The knuckle rake is from the throat to the groin.


    Here is a thread form the Technique of the Month area that discusses the form and also has several peoples opions and questions about this thread. May 2006 - Form of the Month - Short Form 2
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Elk Grove, CA
    Posts
    4,018
    Thanks
    1,163
    Thanked 913 Times in 561 Posts

    Default Re: Short 2 question

    Hi Rob,

    I looked at that thread and neither question was addressed, so I'm posting it as a new question. The other thread mostly talked about the cup and saucer concept, which is interesting to review. I have two specific questions.

    I think the rake goes from the sternum to the belly button, as that is the line of power down the body. The sternum is the third chakra, which is where the power center is and a rip down the middle of that does more than take the wind out of your sails. I've had it done to me when I learned the kata and I pretty much crumbled.

    I'm looking forward to hearing other people's opinions.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sarnia, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,774
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 1,263 Times in 801 Posts

    Default Re: Short 2 question

    I say the rake goes from the throat to the groin, since you are standing upright when the rake starts and dropping your body downwards into the kneel as the rake progresses. This way you are attacking almost all the way down the centerline.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,741
    Thanks
    8
    Thanked 1,181 Times in 674 Posts

    Default Re: Short 2 question

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    This is another difference of opinion. Again, I'll teach it how he wants, but I'd like to know where others are coming from.

    Two questions: 1. Upward block, middle knuckle rake: Where does the rake start and end? Throat to groin or sternum to belly button? (Or do you think something else?)

    2. The move right after the second strike mentioned above: When you turn to a cat stance for the kick. Transitory universal block to a downward block? Or does the left hand start at the shoulder and move into the downward block?

    I'll save my opinion until I hear from some others.

    --Amy
    I realize I'm the rookie here, but I'll take a shot at this.

    I think the middle knuckle rake needs to be measured against our own body, rather than an imaginary attacker. Our right hand is up for the Vertical Outward Block, as we turn, our block moves on a vertical circle, in the downward motion. The block continues in a downward motion as we drop into a wide kneel stance. The important point in this rake is to make sure our fist/hand never drops below our elbow, when executing the strike.

    I think the principles we should be focusing on include the opposing motion of the arms - left hand up/right hand down - and sinking with the strike into the wide kneel stance. As we pivot back to 12 O'Clock, our hands are even more obviously cocked for the correct motion.

    One last point, watch your students to make sure the upper block does not have the middle knuckle extended. Right Hand Dominance causes many of us to do so.


    As we move to the Downward blocks in Short Two ... I am not seeing a Universal, transitory or otherwise. In our studio, we do go back and forth with the discussion of where our hands move when we execute the cat stance - facing 12 O'clock, in preparation of the turn to 4:30.

    Sometimes it seems that Point of Origin means, our hands are up, so the stay up.

    Sometimes the rule applied is 'When you cat, you cock', so we 'cup & saucer' with the cat stance. This is what I prefer in Short 2.

    We have completed the Upward Block to 12 O'clock, with the left hand middle knuckle rake. We bring our left foot foward to a cat stance, and cock our hands in the cup and saucer shape on our right hip. At this point, we still have not turned our body - we are facing 12 O'clock still. We step back with our left foot toward 4:30, including the cover angle. We pivot our body with a left downward block, which drives from our right hip, to our left knee. Our left hand should not be any higher than our belt line, right? And our right hand is cocked at our right hip for the heel palm strike.

    As we cover step to 7:30, for the right downward block, our right hand is cocked high, so this block is a bit different, as it starts from a different point of origin.

    Anyhow, this is what I do.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sarnia, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,774
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 1,263 Times in 801 Posts

    Default Re: Short 2 question

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward
    I realize I'm the rookie here, but I'll take a shot at this.

    I think the middle knuckle rake needs to be measured against our own body, rather than an imaginary attacker. Our right hand is up for the Vertical Outward Block, as we turn, our block moves on a vertical circle, in the downward motion. The block continues in a downward motion as we drop into a wide kneel stance. The important point in this rake is to make sure our fist/hand never drops below our elbow, when executing the strike.

    I think the principles we should be focusing on include the opposing motion of the arms - left hand up/right hand down - and sinking with the strike into the wide kneel stance. As we pivot back to 12 O'Clock, our hands are even more obviously cocked for the correct motion.

    One last point, watch your students to make sure the upper block does not have the middle knuckle extended. Right Hand Dominance causes many of us to do so.


    As we move to the Downward blocks in Short Two ... I am not seeing a Universal, transitory or otherwise. In our studio, we do go back and forth with the discussion of where our hands move when we execute the cat stance - facing 12 O'clock, in preparation of the turn to 4:30.

    Sometimes it seems that Point of Origin means, our hands are up, so the stay up.

    Sometimes the rule applied is 'When you cat, you cock', so we 'cup & saucer' with the cat stance. This is what I prefer in Short 2.

    We have completed the Upward Block to 12 O'clock, with the left hand middle knuckle rake. We bring our left foot foward to a cat stance, and cock our hands in the cup and saucer shape on our right hip. At this point, we still have not turned our body - we are facing 12 O'clock still. We step back with our left foot toward 4:30, including the cover angle. We pivot our body with a left downward block, which drives from our right hip, to our left knee. Our left hand should not be any higher than our belt line, right? And our right hand is cocked at our right hip for the heel palm strike.

    As we cover step to 7:30, for the right downward block, our right hand is cocked high, so this block is a bit different, as it starts from a different point of origin.

    Anyhow, this is what I do.
    Rookie or not, you a firm grasp of Short Form 2.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

  7. #7
    pete is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    517
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 241 Times in 144 Posts

    Default Re: Short 2 question

    anybody consider where the application of the middle knuckle rake is not on the front of the opponent?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sarnia, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,774
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 1,263 Times in 801 Posts

    Default Re: Short 2 question

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    anybody consider where the application of the middle knuckle rake is not on the front of the opponent?
    Please elaborate.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,741
    Thanks
    8
    Thanked 1,181 Times in 674 Posts

    Default Re: Short 2 question

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    anybody consider where the application of the middle knuckle rake is not on the front of the opponent?
    Not until now.

    But, since you mention it ...

    if we are working against an imaginary opponent ... why would I need to execute an upward block / wide kneel if the opponent was not facing me directly?

    If I was behind the opponent, there would be no reason for the upward block (I can think of now weapon that strikes directly behind at that height).

    If I was to the side of the opponent, executing the middle knuckle rake down his side, I might need an upward block, but generally such an attack would be considered extremely poor body mechanics, wouldn't it? The attacker is striking to 9 O'clock or 3 O'clock while facing 12 ... there would be no power in the assault - no backup mass.

    So, as I consider the middle knuckle rake being executed on an attacker that is not facing me, it does not seem likely.

    I'm curious what insights you can offer that I am perhaps overlooking.

    Mike

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Elk Grove, CA
    Posts
    4,018
    Thanks
    1,163
    Thanked 913 Times in 561 Posts

    Default Re: Short 2 question

    I looked in the Infinite Insights book about short two and it doesn't specify where the strikes are to go to. It does say that you are moving into a punch at head level, but it doesn't say where the middle knuckle strike starts and/or stops.

    Hmmmmm.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


  11. #11
    jfarnsworth's Avatar
    jfarnsworth is offline Parker / Planas Lineage
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Mansfield, Ohio
    Posts
    1,583
    Thanks
    178
    Thanked 393 Times in 265 Posts

    Default

    The strike has to start high to move through the entire arc. I say at the throat to move through the groin. If I shot the middle knuckle to the solar plexus it would have to be more like a punch then rake. Due to the height of the opponents solar plexus in reference to the strike itself.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Elk Grove, CA
    Posts
    4,018
    Thanks
    1,163
    Thanked 913 Times in 561 Posts

    Default Re: Short 2 question

    Quote Originally Posted by jfarnsworth View Post
    The strike has to start high to move through the entire arc. I say at the throat to move through the groin. If I shot the middle knuckle to the solar plexus it would have to be more like a punch then rake. Due to the height of the opponents solar plexus in reference to the strike itself.
    Given that the throat is farther back in and can be pulled back (with the head) pretty easily, I wouldn't use a middle knuckle if I were going to strike there. Are there any techniques you can think of where we do a middle knuckle to the throat? So why would we use one in the kata?

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sarnia, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,774
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 1,263 Times in 801 Posts

    Default Re: Short 2 question

    Remeber the first 4 forms are dictionary sets designed to explore the different strikes, advancing, retreating, blocking, turning etc... The techniques are found in the forms starting at Short Form 3. Although in the older version of the techniques that teh Tracy system uses there are techniques like that, I believe it is Lowering The Gate that is much like this part of the form.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. A question about all the Red on Belts
    By hemi in forum Parkers Kenpo (EPAK) - General
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 12-18-2006, 06:49 PM
  2. short form 3 question
    By 0nslaught in forum EPAK Technical Studies
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 10-19-2006, 09:27 AM
  3. Begging Hands question
    By hemi in forum Parkers Kenpo (EPAK) - General
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 06-27-2006, 03:02 PM
  4. Technique question
    By MrBunny in forum Parkers Kenpo (EPAK) - General
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 02-07-2006, 07:18 PM
  5. Short Form 3
    By Rob Broad in forum Ed Parker Kenpo
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-23-2006, 02:04 PM