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    Default Coordination Set 1

    My instructor and I have a difference of opinion about this set. Naturally, I'll teach it however he wants, but I'd like some other opinions about which way is more common.

    The basic sequence is: outward block, punch same hand, forward bow punch opposite hand, kick and punch same time, plant back with forward bow punch. Repeat.

    The questions are: 1. Vertical punch or horizontal punch?
    2. When you do the last punch, do you plant and then punch or plant/punch at the same time?

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    When I teach it, it is always horzintal punch and plant/punch at the same time. I also have an inward block before the outward block with the opposite hand.

    For those unfamilar with this set here is a link to a thread with a break down July 2006 Set of the Month - Coordination Set I
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    I was taught to start with a vertical block and with the plant/punch at the same time
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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    When I teach it, it is always horzintal punch and plant/punch at the same time. I also have an inward block before the outward block with the opposite hand.
    Diddo.
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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    When I teach it, it is always horzintal punch and plant/punch at the same time. I also have an inward block before the outward block with the opposite hand.

    For those unfamilar with this set here is a link to a thread with a break down July 2006 Set of the Month - Coordination Set I
    Same here.
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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    Oh, another set I don't really love, at all.

    We execute horizontal punches and do the final punch with the plant.

    Here is my guess as to 'Why' we execute these actions in this way ....

    In this set, we are executing the punches 'almost' at full extention. We cock our hand at our hip 'palm up'. As we execute a punch, that palm up rotates inward to add torque to the punch. As the range away from the hip increases, the rotation of the fist drives through the vertical to the horizontal, eventually to that inverted position (the punch at the end of Grip of Death - although that is on a downward trajectory).

    Because these punches are close to full range, we should be using the Horizontal punch.

    If we think about the final punch, when it occurs will depend on what stance are in when the kick is finished. We begin to execute the kick from a forward bow. I don't know if this means we should land in a forward bow or not, although that is what we do in our school. Because we land in a forward bow, we execute the punch with the foot being planted.

    If we were to end that kick in a Neutral Bow, we could then demonstrate the application of the Torque Power Principle, with the BASE - PIVOT move; executing the punch after landing in a Neutral Bow.

    When you complete the kick, in which stance do you land?

    I'm wondering if there is a Kenpo rule about what stance is appropriate at the end of a kick? Does the method of execution of the kick drive that rule? Hmmm .... something to think about.

    Mike

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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    More great insights Mike. You will make an amazing instructor one day very soon.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    I have been taught by my instructor that a horizontal punch is a misaligned punch and lacks sufficient structure to be most effective. Misaligned in this case basically means where the elbow, forearm and wrist have rotated too far out of the punch. In our tests this 'flat punch' is weakest at its full rotation (i.e. horizontal). To this end we execute a 'diagonal' punch in place of a horizontal for added structure in the arm and shoulder.

    On a second note, I believe the choice of strike in the coordination set very much depends on how one executes the outward-vertical blocks. I have seen some block quite 'low' in this set - where the elbow is anchored low down near to the body. It appears the intention is almost to block and chamber for the punch at the same time. We don't block like this in our school - our outward-verticals are aligned so that the elbow is at shoulder height and the fist over the top of our head, so that if we punched from this position it (the punch) wouldn't be very strong because we would be rotating the punch down to the target rather than coming from a chambered position. Experiments with outward-horizontal heel-palms seem quite successful in place of a punch.

    And we strike/plant at the same time at the end...

    james

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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    I don't know where I got the plant and then punch thing. I was a kid when I learned it, so I may have just remembered it wrong.

    I'll just have to adjust.

    The joy of kenpo.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward
    . . . .

    As the range away from the hip increases, the rotation of the fist drives through the vertical to the horizontal, eventually to that inverted position (the punch at the end of Grip of Death - although that is on a downward trajectory).
    Ahh ... hey knucklehead .... don't you mean 'Grasp of Death'?

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward
    Ah, Yeah .... sorry

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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB
    I have been taught by my instructor that a horizontal punch is a misaligned punch and lacks sufficient structure to be most effective. Misaligned in this case basically means where the elbow, forearm and wrist have rotated too far out of the punch. In our tests this 'flat punch' is weakest at its full rotation (i.e. horizontal). To this end we execute a 'diagonal' punch in place of a horizontal for added structure in the arm and shoulder.

    On a second note, I believe the choice of strike in the coordination set very much depends on how one executes the outward-vertical blocks. I have seen some block quite 'low' in this set - where the elbow is anchored low down near to the body. It appears the intention is almost to block and chamber for the punch at the same time. We don't block like this in our school - our outward-verticals are aligned so that the elbow is at shoulder height and the fist over the top of our head, so that if we punched from this position it (the punch) wouldn't be very strong because we would be rotating the punch down to the target rather than coming from a chambered position. Experiments with outward-horizontal heel-palms seem quite successful in place of a punch.

    And we strike/plant at the same time at the end...

    james
    Those lessons in the Uk are really paying off. Correct on all counts sir. The so-called 'horizontal punch' is really not a punch at all from an anatomical perspective. Mr. Parker always told me it is the 'follow through' of a punch, and the actual punch is at the diagonal as you describe it. Therefore if you are following the natural rotation of the executed punch, when you reach the horizontal position, you should have already completed the punch. The extention or horizontal position is utilized extensively in SL-4 Kenpo as a momentary "Brace," (Contact Manipulation) after the fact.

    Although many do not like this superficially 'simple' set, it is quite sophisticated with many layers of information and lessons built in, much like the much overlooked "Short One.' When you begin to add all the BAM's, PAM's, Indexes, Double and Triple Check applications inherent in its proper execution, it becomes quite effective in actual use.
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    Smile Re: Coordination Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    My instructor and I have a difference of opinion about this set. Naturally, I'll teach it however he wants, but I'd like some other opinions about which way is more common.

    The basic sequence is: outward block, punch same hand, forward bow punch opposite hand, kick and punch same time, plant back with forward bow punch. Repeat.

    The questions are: 1. Vertical punch or horizontal punch?
    2. When you do the last punch, do you plant and then punch or plant/punch at the same time?

    --Amy
    Here is the version that I learned and have taught for nearly 25 years.

    COORDINATION SET #1


    OPENING: ATTENTION STANCE. BOW. DROP INTO A MEDITATING HORSE STANCE.

    SET 1:

    1. Have your right foot drop back toward 6 o'clock into a left neutral bow, facing 12 o'clock, as you execute a left vertical outward block. While blocking have your right hand cock on your right hip (fist clenched, palm up).

    2. From your left neutral bow execute a left straight horizontal punch toward 12 o'clock at shoulder level.

    3. While in place, pivot into a left forward bow as you execute a right straight horizontal punch toward 12 o'clock at solar plexus level. Simultaneous with this punch have your left hand cock on your left hip (fist clenched, palm up).

    4. From your left forward bow, execute a right front snap ball kick toward 12 o'clock at knee level, simultaneous "with" a left straight horizontal punch toward 12 o'clock at lower rib level. While executing this punch-kick combination, have your right hand cock on your right hip (fist clenched, palm up).

    5. As you replant (without any lose of motion) your right foot toward 6 o'clock to its Point of Origin, in a transitional close kneel and you positionally check with your left hand forward and recock your right hand to your side, rotate your body clockwise to a neutral bow then quickly rotate counter clockwise and simultaneously execute a right straight horizontal punch toward 12 o'clock at solar plexus level whle setteling into a forward bow stance (this is all done in a smooth transition form the one leg posture and ending into the forward bow stance ). While punching, have your left hand cock on your left hip (fist clenched, palm up).


    Repeat all other directions.


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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoldenOne View Post
    5. As you replant (without any lose of motion) your right foot toward 6 o'clock to its Point of Origin, in a transitional close kneel and you positionally check with your left hand forward and recock your right hand to your side, rotate your body clockwise to a neutral bow then quickly rotate counter clockwise and simultaneously execute a right straight horizontal punch toward 12 o'clock at solar plexus level whle setteling into a forward bow stance (this is all done in a smooth transition form the one leg posture and ending into the forward bow stance ). While punching, have your left hand cock on your left hip (fist clenched, palm up).

    GD7
    It's this last one that interests me. This sounds closer to how I originally learned it. I'd like to see that one in action. Do you have a clip of it? I learned it when I was 12 or so and that was a painfully long time ago.

    I remember that there was a half-beat pause before throwing the last punch. Anyone have any video? Some things are easier to get when you see it.

    Thanks!!!

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    Diddo.
    Also taught the same, to plant and punch at the same time

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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    My instructor and I have a difference of opinion about this set. Naturally, I'll teach it however he wants, but I'd like some other opinions about which way is more common.

    The basic sequence is: outward block, punch same hand, forward bow punch opposite hand, kick and punch same time, plant back with forward bow punch. Repeat.

    The questions are: 1. Vertical punch or horizontal punch?
    2. When you do the last punch, do you plant and then punch or plant/punch at the same time?

    --Amy
    The way I was taught, the way I do it and the way I teach it...
    1. Horizontal punch.
    2. Punch AS you plant (same instant).

    I really LOVE Coordination Set One. Strange thing is, I can't say WHY. I just do, it's fun to do. In fact, I get so into it that I've made it into one of my "Cardio" elements to take the monotony (sp?) out of just jogging or just riding my bike... doing this set OVER and OVER....
    fun workout.
    Probably as close as I'm going to get to Tae-Bo.

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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    My instructor and I have a difference of opinion about this set. Naturally, I'll teach it however he wants, but I'd like some other opinions about which way is more common.

    The basic sequence is: outward block, punch same hand, forward bow punch opposite hand, kick and punch same time, plant back with forward bow punch. Repeat.

    The questions are: 1. Vertical punch or horizontal punch?
    2. When you do the last punch, do you plant and then punch or plant/punch at the same time?

    --Amy
    Same time.

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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    I don't know where I got the plant and then punch thing. I was a kid when I learned it, so I may have just remembered it wrong.

    I'll just have to adjust.

    The joy of kenpo.

    --Amy
    Its more powerfull to plant then punch but that is not the lesson.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    The way I was taught has one extra move.

    When we land from the kick/punch combination we fall back into a neutral bow with a lead hand outward block. Then we do the forward bow punch, horizontal on all punches.

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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    I have been taught by my instructor that a horizontal punch is a misaligned punch and lacks sufficient structure to be most effective. Misaligned in this case basically means where the elbow, forearm and wrist have rotated too far out of the punch. In our tests this 'flat punch' is weakest at its full rotation (i.e. horizontal). To this end we execute a 'diagonal' punch in place of a horizontal for added structure in the arm and shoulder.

    On a second note, I believe the choice of strike in the coordination set very much depends on how one executes the outward-vertical blocks. I have seen some block quite 'low' in this set - where the elbow is anchored low down near to the body. It appears the intention is almost to block and chamber for the punch at the same time. We don't block like this in our school - our outward-verticals are aligned so that the elbow is at shoulder height and the fist over the top of our head, so that if we punched from this position it (the punch) wouldn't be very strong because we would be rotating the punch down to the target rather than coming from a chambered position. Experiments with outward-horizontal heel-palms seem quite successful in place of a punch.

    And we strike/plant at the same time at the end...

    james
    Part of the beauty of coordination set is when you realize all of your punches have a natural outward block and that you are better of bringing them up through the middle; so, bringing your elbow up to head level defeats that particular lesson. All your blocks should feel like a chamber.
    Sean
    Last edited by KenpoChanger; 06-25-2007 at 05:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Coordination Set 1

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    Part of the beauty of coordination set is when you realize all of your punches have a natural outward block and that you are better of bringing them up through the middle; so, bringing your elbow up to head level defeats that particular lesson. All your blocks should feel like a chamber.
    Sean
    Not all punches have a natural outward block. And the outward-vertical block is at it's most effective when executed with the elbow aligned at shoulder height (not head-height) as I already explained. You read my post before responding, right?

    'All blocks should feel like a chamber' - hmmmm well thats so open-ended how should anyone respond? If you want to train like that then go right ahead, just don't expect everyone else to follow suit when there alternative training methods.

    I vote for palm-heels instead of punches for this set, with properly executed outward-blocks at shoulder level for maximum effectiveness.

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