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    Default Best Knife Techniques

    Since knife techniques seem to be the source of much hot debate, I thought we could talk about what the best knife techniques or knife movements would be.

    I hope I never have to find out which one works best, but I'd like to make sure that if it does come up, that I'm using the best technique.

    Generally, I like the block/get offline of the attack as a start. Or, parry and get the heck out of the way of the attack.

    My favorite, is 'talk my way out of it and run like the devil is on my heels'.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    My favorite would be to pull out my 9mm....
    eilana1 likes this.


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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    the 'debate' is mostly a lot of noise. 5 good techniques in the system, likely more than you'll ever really need, which address the typical attacks. for all the what iffs and variances, we dont need more techniques but practice grafting from the 5 techs we do have through the skills developed in our empty handed techniques.

    the techs are good and do work. i don't think people like larry tatum, and ed parker before him would be teaching them the way they are if they were not effective. those that can't get them to work, or would benefit from a perception that they are not effective may drive you to question them, and cause you to lose confidence in your kenpo. that is all counterproductive. the key to any martial arts training is to beleive in what you are doing, and to improve both your skill and the confidence in your skill.

    i've been playing guitar for more than 30 years now, and still a hack. why? lack of practice, and even though there are 4-5 or more ways of playing that B7 chord, i'll find ways to flub it, muffle a note, or miss it completely.
    There is nothing inherently wrong with the B7 and the chord should not be changed. Just means if i got to play a tune that requires it, i better practice and build up my confidence!

    seems like others may be just re-writing the songbook...

    pete

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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    I've heard Mr. LaBounty, Mr. Planas, Dr. Chapel, Mr. Trejo and Mr. Sepulvida all tell me the techniques are flawed and will get you killed without some modification. Perhaps I just haven't practiced enough but I'm in pretty good company and comfortable that I personally need to modify the techniques.

    Respectfully,
    Jeff

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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    the 'debate' is mostly a lot of noise. 5 good techniques in the system, likely more than you'll ever really need, which address the typical attacks. for all the what iffs and variances, we dont need more techniques but practice grafting from the 5 techs we do have through the skills developed in our empty handed techniques.

    the techs are good and do work. i don't think people like larry tatum, and ed parker before him would be teaching them the way they are if they were not effective. those that can't get them to work, or would benefit from a perception that they are not effective may drive you to question them, and cause you to lose confidence in your kenpo. that is all counterproductive. the key to any martial arts training is to beleive in what you are doing, and to improve both your skill and the confidence in your skill.

    pete
    Pete,

    I couldn't agree more.

    Kenpo rocks, and unfortunately, there are now some on this forum that have lost a lot of confidence in the techniques generally, and their skill in particular.

    I believe in what I am doing, and I work at it 7 days per week to try to make it better.

    Here's to Kenpo!!!
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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    the 'debate' is mostly a lot of noise. 5 good techniques in the system, likely more than you'll ever really need, which address the typical attacks. for all the what iffs and variances, we dont need more techniques but practice grafting from the 5 techs we do have through the skills developed in our empty handed techniques.
    Clearly there are serious issues with the knife techniques otherwise this 'debate' would not be happening. It is not just a small handful of people questioning the knife curriculum, it is an opinion held by many prominent kenpo people. It's not a recent thing either, it's been going on for years. I am not saying 'your' kenpo-knife techs don't work, but rather the basic techniques 'as written' need serious modification.

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    those that can't get them to work, or would benefit from a perception that they are not effective may drive you to question them, and cause you to lose confidence in your kenpo. that is all counterproductive. the key to any martial arts training is to beleive in what you are doing, and to improve both your skill and the confidence in your skill.
    I don't agree with this but perhaps I am not understanding what you intended to say. In my opinion the key to martial arts training is knowing what you do works rather than simply 'believing'. Believing is indicative of blind faith, which is counterproductive (imho). It is essential that one can prove the efficacy of one's training rather than simply being told 'it works'.

    Claiming that people can't get the knife techs to work basically suggests they are doing them wrong. Whilst there probably are people 'doing them wrong', there are an equal number of people 'doing them right' but who are not happy with the results.

    The 'benefit' of questioning the knife techniques is not to discredit others but to improve one's kenpo. Mr Parker formed the kenpo system and instilled in his students the ability to question everything they were doing. It is their right to do so and is an integral part of what kenpo is all about. Not questioning the techniques or being unable to accept that other people have opinions on them is not in keeping with the 'kenpo way' imho.

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    seems like others may be just re-writing the songbook...pete
    The 'songbook' needs modification if the intention is to improve the ability to defend one's self effectively. If you are happy with your knife-techniques and are confident that they will work for you then great. But accept there are others who are not satisfied with their knife techniques and are actively seeking improvements.

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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Pete,

    I couldn't agree more.

    Kenpo rocks, and unfortunately, there are now some on this forum that have lost a lot of confidence in the techniques generally, and their skill in particular.
    That's quite an assumption to make. You are making implications that 'some' (i.e. anyone who doesn't agree with your standpoint) lack confidence and skill in their kenpo. Are you sure it isn't yourself who lacks confidence? Clearly you have issues with what 'some' say yet when given the opportunity to answer the 'detractors' you appear unable to do so.

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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB
    when given the opportunity to answer the 'detractors' you appear unable to do so.
    That is because I have to come to realize that regardless what I say, I will be laughed at, and debated until the cow jumps over the moon.

    Sorry, but life for me is well beyond one big debate. Where is the joy in that?

    I will leave it by saying that I disagree big-time.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Kenpo rocks, and unfortunately, there are now some on this forum that have lost a lot of confidence in the techniques generally, and their skill in particular.
    Mr. Seabrook, I think you are misrepresenting the views of those who question these, and in fact, all techniques. I have full confidence in the principles, concepts, skills and moves (I'm a motion type of Kenpoist) that these techniques teach. However, if you can't make it work against a skilled, resisting opponent, then something is wrong. Either the technique needs tweaked, or you need it- probably both. And the tweaks still must follow basic Kenpo methods. We are not saying Kenpo doesn't work. We're saying we, as Kenpoists, have to learn to make it work. Sometimes that means bailing on the tech and doing something else. I just don't see where unquestioningly following a pre-planned response just because Mr. Parker wrote it helps. It's a learning tool, not a bible.

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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB
    I am not saying 'your' kenpo-knife techs don't work, but rather the basic techniques 'as written' need serious modification.
    james, that is a contradiction. if i am practicing the techs as written, and in your opinion they need serious modification... then you are saying that my techs don't work. which is really strange becauseyou don't know me and can only rely on assumption of what written version i practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB
    I don't agree with this but perhaps I am not understanding what you intended to say. In my opinion the key to martial arts training is knowing what you do works rather than simply 'believing'. Believing is indicative of blind faith, which is counterproductive (imho).
    then i guess we should tell football coaches to tell their players at half time the facts: they are are facing a team with better weapons, down by two touchdowns, and all the plays we've been practicing won't work against their defense...

    i am not reducing the gravity of a knife attack to a football game, but using it to make a point. the subject of statistics comes up often on these boards, i'd be interested in knowing how many stabbing deaths can be attributed to using those 5 techniques, vs. how many lives have been saved by using them... or, how many lives have been saved by acting with confidence using the techniques they have been taught vs lives taken due to the symptoms that come with lack of confidence, or uncertainty, such as those resulting from an adrenaline dump, freeze-up, degradation in sight, hearing, stamina, and judgement.
    Last edited by pete; 08-26-2006 at 10:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    I'm a motion type of Kenpoist.
    how do you know? i am curious...

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    if you can't make it work against a skilled, resisting opponent, then something is wrong. Either the technique needs tweaked, or you need it- probably both. And the tweaks still must follow basic Kenpo methods. We are not saying Kenpo doesn't work. We're saying we, as Kenpoists, have to learn to make it work.
    exactly. tweaks can be good or bad, depending on your knowledge and experience. funny thing is most tweaks inserted when you can't get a tech to work either (a) disappear when you mature in the system, or (b) are eventually found elsewhere in the system, so all you are really doing is grafting.

    oh yeah, there is a 'c',those inserts or tweaks that do not follow kenpo principles and serve only as a easy way around working on improving correct technique or an easy way to further your ego as being creative or innovative... these should be identified imeediately and burned~

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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    james, that is a contradiction. if i am practicing the techs as written, and in your opinion they need serious modification... then you are saying that my techs don't work. which is really strange becauseyou don't know me and can only rely on assumption of what written version i practice.
    Well I was trying very hard not to make any comment about your kenpo because I don't know you - as you very rightly say. But I neither assumed nor claimed that you were doing these techniques the same way as myself. And I think it's fair to say that your knowledge of these techniques is probably quite different to mine which is why we have apparently different opinions as to their effectiveness.

    Let me try again: imho the techniques as described in recent threads, need revisiting for two reasons:

    1. Some aspects of the knife techniques do not adequately address the aggressiveness of a resisting attacker in my mind. The comments on the 'thrusting lance' thread bear this out and indicate that there are people having problems with the wrist-grab and groin-shot. If it works for you then great - but these tactics seem not to be working for others which is difficult to ignore.

    2. The lethal nature of the techniques after the knife has been delt with (which result in killing the attacker) is a problem in itself and isn't appropriate in society today. The techniques work a little too well here and the endings especially need revising to include methods for controlling the attacker in a way that doesn't permanently injure them. You may be happy about killing somebody - I am not - which is why I maintain that the techniques do need to be modified.

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    i am not reducing the gravity of a knife attack to a football game, but using it to make a point. the subject of statistics comes up often on these boards, i'd be interested in knowing how many stabbing deaths can be attributed to using those 5 techniques, vs. how many lives have been saved by using them... or, how many lives have been saved by acting with confidence using the techniques they have been taught vs lives taken due to the symptoms that come with lack of confidence, or uncertainty, such as those resulting from an adrenaline dump, freeze-up, degradation in sight, hearing, stamina, and judgement.
    certainly you make a good point here and I agree that it is important to have confidence in what you are doing. I also believe in training with an assumption of success rather than anticipating failure.

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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    (Originally Posted by thedan
    "I'm a motion type of Kenpoist.")
    how do you know? i am curious...
    Because I'm the one doing it? "Motion" as opposed to, say, SL-4...

    exactly. tweaks can be good or bad, depending on your knowledge and experience. funny thing is most tweaks inserted when you can't get a tech to work either (a) disappear when you mature in the system, or (b) are eventually found elsewhere in the system, so all you are really doing is grafting.
    True enough, as far as it goes. We all practice at different levels of understanding. However, some tweeks are due to size and build differences, physical ability/disabilities. And a lot of tweeks are due to variables in the attack- level of force, speed of opponent, minor angle of incidence changes, etc. These are small, situation specific tweeks that must be done spontaneosly. You have to learn to be flexable and adapt, get out of the "dojo" mode.

    oh yeah, there is a 'c',those inserts or tweaks that do not follow kenpo principles and serve only as a easy way around working on improving correct technique or an easy way to further your ego as being creative or innovative... these should be identified imeediately and burned~
    Actually, the easy way around is to not question the technique, not varry the attack, not work up the force, and not eventually allow the opponent to resist and counter. Either way, you are correct that it should be thrown out.

    I don't see the differences in opinions here as whether Kenpo works or not so much as whether it is ok to question what you are doing. I'd say those who question are more confident in what they do than those who won't allow questions. a) it takes confidence to put your method out to be ripped apart. b) they questioned, but are still here. c) they are willing to take the hits and find out.

    Not saying any one here doesn't train like that. But I would suggest that, when someone says a technique doesn't work, ask for specifics as to why they think that. Then try it out. If you think they are wrong, file the info and keep doing what you are doing. If you find they are right, you've just improved your understanding. Either way, you will be a more confident Kenpoist.

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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    I, personally, like Raining Lance. At least the first move of it. If I've done that one right, the person will have the knife lodged in their leg and that will most likely be that.

    I'm drawing a blank on which lance it is, but I also like the one where you spin and elbow them in the head. I'm not keen on reaching over the knife because I think the chances of me getting cut are pretty high, but I've always liked to come in and back-elbow someone in the face. Satisfying.

    I've got a new knife video to watch, so I'll see soon if there's anything to say about that motion in there, but those are the ones I like the best thus far.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    For thursting attacks I prefer to step off the line of the attack while deflecting with a parry and imediately grasping and rolling it into a wrist lock then follow up with strikes. Im most concerned with trying to control the weapon first. If I can pull the wrist lock off then it will be easy to pick my targets and give me much more slack when controlling the attacker.
    For the overhead attack i prefer the Raining Lance approach. Short and simple.
    "A warrior's ultimate act is to put down his sword"

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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by EndlessRising
    For thursting attacks I prefer to step off the line of the attack while deflecting with a parry and imediately grasping and rolling it into a wrist lock then follow up with strikes. Im most concerned with trying to control the weapon first. If I can pull the wrist lock off then it will be easy to pick my targets and give me much more slack when controlling the attacker.
    For the overhead attack i prefer the Raining Lance approach. Short and simple.
    What is your opinion regarding wrist-locks whilst the attacker is still gripping the knife? If you've ever tried to apply a lock to someone holding their fist tightly closed you may know what I'm getting at...

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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    I, personally, like Raining Lance. At least the first move of it. If I've done that one right, the person will have the knife lodged in their leg and that will most likely be that.
    I like the entry on theis technique as well. After the entry, I transition from the left pinning check and roll the attackers arm over into a gooseneck. If they still have hold of the knife (say I miss the guys thigh for instance) they'll probably drop it here. I step back with my left leg twisting and pulling on the attackers arm while maintaining the goose neck taking them to the ground. If for some strange reason they still have hold of the kife after thier arm goes through all that.... just take it. LOL. They won't resist.

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    I'm drawing a blank on which lance it is, but I also like the one where you spin and elbow them in the head. I'm not keen on reaching over the knife because I think the chances of me getting cut are pretty high, but I've always liked to come in and back-elbow someone in the face. Satisfying.
    It's not worth the risk to me. I know what can happen if someone were to turn their back on me..so I don't like to turn my back to others But, yes... back-elbows are quite satisfying.

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    I've got a new knife video to watch, so I'll see soon if there's anything to say about that motion in there, but those are the ones I like the best thus far.

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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB
    1. Some aspects of the knife techniques do not adequately address the aggressiveness of a resisting attacker in my mind.
    i disagree, and would say that the training methods of some may not address...

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB
    2. The lethal nature of the techniques after the knife has been delt with (which result in killing the attacker) is a problem in itself
    again i disagree, and would say that the tech may escalate to a situation where lethal force is required. i too hope never to be placed in such a situation.

    the key here is to train techniques as actions controlled by conscious aware thoughts, rather than unconscious reflexive patterns programmed into your nervous system. in other words, deal with the think-see-do sequence rather than the initially faster reflexive fighting. with proper training, the gaps between think-see-do will shorten to the point where thought and action become one, and the ability to change overcomes the early advantages of reflexive speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB
    I also believe in training with an assumption of success rather than anticipating failure.
    i'm not sure i'd equate assumption of success or failure with confidence vs uncertainty. i'd say that the confidence is belief that whether you fail or succeed, your attempt is the best effort you can put forward.

    pete

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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    Because I'm the one doing it? "Motion" as opposed to, say, SL-4....
    that's kinda why i asked. the only place i've ever seen, read, or heard about 'motion' kenpo is on these boards and used to describe anything that isn't SL4. well, like you i don't train SL4, but not sure that 'motion' kenpo describes it either. i've been told it was American Kenpo, and there seems like a lot more than one's 'motion' going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    True enough, as far as it goes. We all practice at different levels of understanding. However, some tweeks are due to size and build differences, physical ability/disabilities. And a lot of tweeks are due to variables in the attack- level of force, speed of opponent, minor angle of incidence changes, etc. These are small, situation specific tweeks that must be done spontaneosly.
    agreed, i think... as long as the situational changes come from the body of knowledge. i mean, we should train to be somewhat predictable in spontaneous situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    You have to learn to be flexable and adapt, get out of the "dojo" mode.
    or change your dojo mode to be more flexible... which is, i think, what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    Actually, the easy way around is to not question the technique, not varry the attack, not work up the force, and not eventually allow the opponent to resist and counter. Either way, you are correct that it should be thrown out.

    I don't see the differences in opinions here as whether Kenpo works or not so much as whether it is ok to question what you are doing. I'd say those who question are more confident in what they do than those who won't allow questions. a) it takes confidence to put your method out to be ripped apart. b) they questioned, but are still here. c) they are willing to take the hits and find out.

    Not saying any one here doesn't train like that. But I would suggest that, when someone says a technique doesn't work, ask for specifics as to why they think that. Then try it out. If you think they are wrong, file the info and keep doing what you are doing. If you find they are right, you've just improved your understanding. Either way, you will be a more confident Kenpoist.
    of couse you should question it, hell i was born in 1961 and raised to question everything and everybody! i say that for every question, there should actually be two: (1) why doesn't this technique work? and (2) when will this technique work? its there because it works against something!

    pete

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    Default Re: Best Knife Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB
    What is your opinion regarding wrist-locks whilst the attacker is still gripping the knife? If you've ever tried to apply a lock to someone holding their fist tightly closed you may know what I'm getting at...
    I know exactly what you're talking about. I probably should explained myself in the first post but no harm done. When trying the type of wrist lock that takes place in thrusting lance yes, it is quite difficult to apply especially in the manner I previously stated. In that case I would definitely try to soften their grip with a strike first. But if not I still am grasping the arm weilding weapon, which for me is the most important part. I'd rather take a punch in the face than a stab in the heart. But the type of wrist lock prefer is more like the motion that occurs after the knee strike in crossing talons. The sort of wrist lock I prefer takes effect when you step outside the line of attack and then roll the wrist out and counterclockwise (from the defenders POV).That sort of joint lock works fine for me even when the attacker is tightly gripping the knife. If done correctly that joint lock leaves you no choice but to go down and release the knife. Thats the motion i've practiced the most and am most consistant with. If I was threatened with a knife and they went for the thrust, that wrist lock is the counter i would probably feel most comfortable using.
    "A warrior's ultimate act is to put down his sword"

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    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-23-2006, 04:28 PM