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Thread: Thrusting Lance

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    Default Thrusting Lance

    I'll be asking this question in class tomorrow, but thought I'd post to see others' thoughts on a pretty crazy "what-if" question. About midway through the technique, after executing the chicken-kicks and the upward lifting back-knuckle, the weapon hand is released. The left hand is pressing down on the shoulder, but otherwise, the limb is free while you execute the series of hammerfists. What keeps the attacker from using that right arm in retaliation (e.g. against the knees or ankles)?

    I'm assuming the knife has dropped either in the initial parry/strike or after the wrist-lock and the attacker is in a lot of pain by now. If one rushes through the technique sloppily or the attacker is drugged, how would you keep that arm from doing damage?

    I also realize the attacker will probably be preoccupied with the strikes to the head, but anyone who attacks with a knife might be a bit out of their mind anyway.

    A bit of a stretch of a question, but I'm always wary of dangling limbs and overly-cooperative training partners.
    "Let the wookie win."

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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    I'm at the point where all the techniques get jumbled in my brain ... but let me take a run at this .... first a brief description ...

    Fighting positions ....
    Right Neutral Bow to Right Neutral Bow. Aggressor holding the knife in his right hand, steps in (pushdrag) with a thrusting knife attack toward the defender's heart.

    Step back slightly with your left foot as you execute a right hammering inward block on the attackers wrist, and immediately grab the hand ... controlling the weapon. (if the attacker is holding the knife tightly, the initial strike may very well cause him to drop the knife ... lesson is - don't hold the knife too tightly).

    Shuffle in toward the attacker with a left heel palm strike to the groin, and a right elbow to the attackers face. Be certain to tuck your head in, and away (chin to your left shoulder).

    After the heel palm, move your left hand to the attackers right hand, and grap (both hands now holding the attackers right hand). Step back with your right foot as you rotate the attackers right hand and arm up and over to your right hip. (this is important to your question). You should have his wrist and arm in an uncomfortable lock up, I think.

    Execute the left kick, right kick combination while pulling his right hand further back past your right hip. Land in a Right Neutral Bow, moving your left hand up to cover his upper arm/shoulder area.

    Execute the Right Lifting Back knuckle to the face. Turn your hand over, execute a downward back knuckle to the mastoid. Continue the right hand into the X strikes (right inward diagonal downward hammer, right outward diagonal downward hammer).

    .. .this description is off the top of my head, but I think it is pretty close to how we do the technique.


    You question was .. "how do we keep that (right) arm from doing damage?"

    I think the answer is that we are far enough inside the effective range of that weapon, that it is minimized in effectiveness.

    Aren't there other techniques lower down the belt chart where we take the attackers right arm past our right hip .... (Spiraling Twig is one) ... Of course the threat on these techniques is the same as what you are asking about ... except there was never a knife in that right hand.

    One other thing that comes to mind ... in 'Dance of Darkness', we have that rather odd 'block-parry, parry-parry' move, right? Why do we do that? We never go past a joint with out covering it, right? I imagine we would execute that same idea as we move past the attackers right elbow in Spiraling Twig and Thusting Lance.

    OK ... So my answer ... is we are inside the effective range of the weapon.

    If he were to grab my leg, I would execute a lifting back heel kick to his face (ala - Crossed Twigs).

    I'm certain, other more experienced practitioners will offer greater insight.

    Mike

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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward
    I'm at the point where all the techniques get jumbled in my brain ... but let me take a run at this .... first a brief description ...

    Fighting positions ....
    Right Neutral Bow to Right Neutral Bow. Aggressor holding the knife in his right hand, steps in (pushdrag) with a thrusting knife attack toward the defender's heart.

    Step back slightly with your left foot as you execute a right hammering inward block on the attackers wrist, and immediately grab the hand ... controlling the weapon. (if the attacker is holding the knife tightly, the initial strike may very well cause him to drop the knife ... lesson is - don't hold the knife too tightly).

    Shuffle in toward the attacker with a left heel palm strike to the groin, and a right elbow to the attackers face. Be certain to tuck your head in, and away (chin to your left shoulder).

    After the heel palm, move your left hand to the attackers right hand, and grap (both hands now holding the attackers right hand). Step back with your right foot as you rotate the attackers right hand and arm up and over to your right hip. (this is important to your question). You should have his wrist and arm in an uncomfortable lock up, I think.

    Execute the left kick, right kick combination while pulling his right hand further back past your right hip. Land in a Right Neutral Bow, moving your left hand up to cover his upper arm/shoulder area.

    Execute the Right Lifting Back knuckle to the face. Turn your hand over, execute a downward back knuckle to the mastoid. Continue the right hand into the X strikes (right inward diagonal downward hammer, right outward diagonal downward hammer).

    .. .this description is off the top of my head, but I think it is pretty close to how we do the technique.


    You question was .. "how do we keep that (right) arm from doing damage?"

    I think the answer is that we are far enough inside the effective range of that weapon, that it is minimized in effectiveness.

    Aren't there other techniques lower down the belt chart where we take the attackers right arm past our right hip .... (Spiraling Twig is one) ... Of course the threat on these techniques is the same as what you are asking about ... except there was never a knife in that right hand.

    One other thing that comes to mind ... in 'Dance of Darkness', we have that rather odd 'block-parry, parry-parry' move, right? Why do we do that? We never go past a joint with out covering it, right? I imagine we would execute that same idea as we move past the attackers right elbow in Spiraling Twig and Thusting Lance.

    OK ... So my answer ... is we are inside the effective range of the weapon.

    If he were to grab my leg, I would execute a lifting back heel kick to his face (ala - Crossed Twigs).

    I'm certain, other more experienced practitioners will offer greater insight.

    Mike
    From the beginning, you hammer his arm, presumebly knocking it away from you, then you try to grab it with your other hand? While someone is trying to kil you and you haven't controlled or accounted for his other hand?
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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    I think he means to grab it with the same hand that hammered... and to hold on to it while doing the right elbow to the face.

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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC
    I think he means to grab it with the same hand that hammered... and to hold on to it while doing the right elbow to the face.
    Even worse. Knock something away and then grab it with the same hand? Wait till I get your butt back out here again.
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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    I thought the technique began with a left downward parry as you chop the weapon hand at the wrist, pinning the attackers arm between your two hands before grabbing with the arm and shuffling in (hopefully the attacker releases the weapon). Is this correct?

    My original question was not about taking the weapon hand past the hip, but about when the weapon hand is released before the series of hammerfists. What keeps the attacker from doing damage after the chicken-kicks (besides the fact that his/her arm should be mush by now)? Silly question, I suppose.
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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by gardawamtu
    I thought the technique began with a left downward parry as you chop the weapon hand at the wrist, pinning the attackers arm between your two hands before grabbing with the arm and shuffling in (hopefully the attacker releases the weapon). Is this correct?

    My original question was not about taking the weapon hand past the hip, but about when the weapon hand is released before the series of hammerfists. What keeps the attacker from doing damage after the chicken-kicks (besides the fact that his/her arm should be mush by now)? Silly question, I suppose.
    Not a silly question at all sir, but a dam stupid technique.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by gardawamtu
    I thought the technique began with a left downward parry as you chop the weapon hand at the wrist, pinning the attackers arm between your two hands before grabbing with the arm and shuffling in (hopefully the attacker releases the weapon). Is this correct?

    My original question was not about taking the weapon hand past the hip, but about when the weapon hand is released before the series of hammerfists. What keeps the attacker from doing damage after the chicken-kicks (besides the fact that his/her arm should be mush by now)? Silly question, I suppose.
    That is not the way I learned the beginning of this technique. I certainly do not have a two hand pin on the attackers arm.

    I still think the answer to your question is range, and body position; I think we are inside the effective use of that weapon. At least until the first, upward hammer fist. Once that strike makes contact, we have to imagine that he is going to hold where it hurts. Even if both hands come to his face as a reaction to that strike, our next three strikes are 'free'.

    One other thought, which may be obvious, but let's point out that all his other weapons are eliminated, right? He can't use his legs because he is bent over, and his left arm is out of range to be effective. So, once we twist that arm around, we have eliminated three of his weapons, while retaing use of all four of our own weapons. ... Not very clever in this analysis ... but, we don't want to overlook it, either.

    I'm curious. Did you discuss this with your instructor? Did he offer any other insights?

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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    Michael, I haven't had the chance to discuss it with the instructors yet. Thanks for your thoughts, though. On the pin with the first parry and strike, I may be misnaming it a bit. The way we learned it, the parry with the left maintains contact with the attacking arm as the right strikes the attackers wrist, causing a brief pin before grabbing the weapon hand with the right. I can see how the affect might be devastating to the weapon hand, but it seems that there is little margin for error (of course the first rule of knife defense is run away anyway).

    Doc, I also find the technique awkward, if not silly. I mainly do not understand why there is a release on the weapon hand, and I find the crossing of your own limbs with the groin strike uncomfortable.

    Thanks for your feedback.
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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    I hear ya on this one. Learn it. Test on it. File it. Learn something else.
    -Camey

    "You mean, you'll put down your rock and I'll put down my sword, and we'll try and kill each other like civilized people? "

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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by gardawamtu
    Michael, I haven't had the chance to discuss it with the instructors yet. Thanks for your thoughts, though. On the pin with the first parry and strike, I may be misnaming it a bit. The way we learned it, the parry with the left maintains contact with the attacking arm as the right strikes the attackers wrist, causing a brief pin before grabbing the weapon hand with the right. I can see how the affect might be devastating to the weapon hand, but it seems that there is little margin for error (of course the first rule of knife defense is run away anyway).

    Doc, I also find the technique awkward, if not silly. I mainly do not understand why there is a release on the weapon hand, and I find the crossing of your own limbs with the groin strike uncomfortable.

    Thanks for your feedback.
    Exactly what i thought when someone showed it to me years ago. My question was, "Why?"
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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    I just read this thread, and I have a question:

    How th' bloody "_" do you get "inside the effective range" of a knife!???

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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    I just read this thread, and I have a question:

    How th' bloody "_" do you get "inside the effective range" of a knife!???
    If this a question, and not something else ...

    The knife should have (or will be) disarmed, long before you get to the point where I used the phrase ... "inside the effective range". The weapon you are inside the effective range of, is the attackers right hand.

    I thought I described a few other techniques where we are in a similiar position ... (see Spiraling Twig) ... Do you ask a similiar question on that technique?

    Aren't we also in the same position in Capturing the Rod?

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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    It's a pointed question. If you are inside the range of a knife, from a defensive perspective, to me it implies that he's not been disarmed and the weapon is not neutralized- it still has "range". If you are talking about a disarmed opponent, that's different and I misunderstood you. Rereading it, I see the weapon you meant was not the knife, but his hand. Sorry- I got tunnel vision when you said "knife" (a not uncommon problem when dealing with weapons).

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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by gardawamtu
    I'll be asking this question in class tomorrow, but thought I'd post to see others' thoughts on a pretty crazy "what-if" question. About midway through the technique, after executing the chicken-kicks and the upward lifting back-knuckle, the weapon hand is released. The left hand is pressing down on the shoulder, but otherwise, the limb is free while you execute the series of hammerfists. What keeps the attacker from using that right arm in retaliation (e.g. against the knees or ankles)?
    Well, up to that point you have smahed his RIGHT arm on the initial block using marriage of gravity, grabbed and squeezed his groin, broken his RIGHT elbow, broken his RIGHT wrist, and then proceeded with chicken kicks while the attacker is bent over and blinded to the kicks.

    Yes, things can go wrong when executing techniques, but at that point, the attacker shouldn't have the slighest hope at using that right arm.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Well, up to that point you have smahed his RIGHT arm on the initial block using marriage of gravity, grabbed and squeezed his groin, broken his RIGHT elbow, broken his RIGHT wrist, and then proceeded with chicken kicks while the attacker is bent over and blinded to the kicks.

    Yes, things can go wrong when executing techniques, but at that point, the attacker shouldn't have the slighest hope at using that right arm.
    You live in "la la land" and I hope you never try to defend yourself against that attack with that technique.
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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    From the beginning, you hammer his arm, presumebly knocking it away from you, then you try to grab it with your other hand? While someone is trying to kil you and you haven't controlled or accounted for his other hand?
    Nice to hear you echo my thoughts on that one. I always noticed that the attacker tends to draw their hand and arm back from the pain. I'd always have to go "chase it down" in order to grab it.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    You live in "la la land" and I hope you never try to defend yourself against that attack with that technique.
    Well Doc, being that I probably won't ever be in a real street fight anyway, I would think that my chances of being attacked with a knife would probably be even more slim.

    BTW - "La la land" rocks. Beautiful trees, hot weather, great sight-seeing.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    You live in "la la land"

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    Default Re: Thrusting Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Well Doc, being that I probably won't ever be in a real street fight anyway, I would think that my chances of being attacked with a knife would probably be even more slim.

    BTW - "La la land" rocks. Beautiful trees, hot weather, great sight-seeing.
    Mr Seabrook,

    No offense, but thats funny.

    Cheers

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