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Thread: Twirling Sacrifice

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    Default Twirling Sacrifice

    Hi.

    I'm still on vacation, but naturally I've been watching karate videos while I'm gone. Thinking about Twirling Sacrifice.

    I only have a few minutes, but I was thinking that I like the idea of picking the opponent's feet up, but what's the point of trying to spin them into a wall?

    Why not just drop an elbow on them after lifting their feet up? I am always afraid of getting hurt trying to pick someone up.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    Twirling Sacrifice is one of my least favorite techniques as well. I've heard it explained as a "big person" technique. While I am big, I also have bad knees, so I never liked the idea. Moreover, if someone is trying to put a full nelson on you, they are probably also big. Leg strength is not my forte!

    I've often had people suggest moving to a different technique for those who would not think it practical to pick someone up and twirl them around the room (squatting sacrifice -- after the horse/groin strike, reaching under, grabbing the leg and pulling up as you squat down).

    I've heard that the object of TS is to knock the attacker's head around the environment before dropping him/her.

    Here is a similar thread on martialtalk:
    http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35882

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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    I could maybe justify it if you were attacked by a midget or very, very small, light person.....but even then......no. Not only do you risk losing your balance, tripping, falling wrong, etc.....but also becoming dis-oriented as you spin- these things could happen to you no matter how big you are. I've never understood or liked this technique.
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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    Its one of those techniques I've told people in the past that is taken directly from sport entertainment wrestling. They include "Captured Leaves," "Squatting Sacrifice," "Twirling Sacrifice," "Scrapping Hoof," "Charging Ram," "Squeezing the Peach," "Sleeper," "Repeated Devastation," "Entangled Wing," "menacing Twirl," Wings of Silf," "Intercepting the Ram," "Encounter with Danger," etc.
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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    Its one of those techniques I've told people in the past that is taken directly from sport entertainment wrestling.
    Interesting Comment. I would argue however that the techniques are not completely entertainment. I've used pieces of four techniques that you mentioned in NHB "practice" to either cancel or complete submissions. So no theory here, just application. I am 6'3" and 235lbs, my partners were all bigger than myself, so I know it was the pattern and application not brute strength.

    Doc, don't take this the wrong way, just asking you a question. Please keep in mind that my question is based off the information I have seen posted here and on your site. I have no opinion, but would like to hear directly from you as a senior student of Ed Parker who is trying to lead this community forward.

    IF you saw Ed Parker teaching this ineffective "motion" kenpo and entertainment wrestling around the world and you knew in your heart he was teaching you the most effective information, then why did you not confront him. Why was he never encouraged to amend and repair the polluted and corrupt legacy he was leaving to millions. IF you saw an injustice being done and if you now see the fruit of that injustice, why did you say nothing to him. Personally, I could never learn from a man who taught merely for commercial gain, if in fact that was Mr. Parker's motivation.

    I am making no judgement nor drawing any conclusions. I am asking a simple and logical question based on information I have seen presented. I am asking so as not to put forth an unjust and unfair statement. Personally, I see some validity in what you say. So I ask the question. I am very interested in your response, not to make fruitless argument, but for my personal inventory as to the validity of the statements you make here.

    If you knew nothing about what was going on than no need to answer the question.

    I ask this question purely in a non confrontational and humble manner.

    God Bless,
    David Todd

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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    I love Twirling Sacrifice. I am 160 lbs and recently taught this technique to one of my students who posts on this forum (Scott Southwell). Scott is just over 200 lbs and I had no problem picking him up and twirling him.

    It is all about leverage, and taking the angle of least resistance when the opponent yanks your head down after applying the full nelson. Also, keep note of the fact that Twirling Sacrifice is phase 3 of two earlier techniques, namely Scraping Hoof and Repeated Devastation.


    On a side, I agree completely with what David Todd said.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    But isn't this a tech. you would have to pull off on a definitely solid surface with no obstacles? And even then- why take the risk of falling wrong or getting off balance when you could just dump them backwards??
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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan
    But isn't this a tech. you would have to pull off on a definitely solid surface with no obstacles? And even then- why take the risk of falling wrong or getting off balance when you could just dump them backwards??
    I agree with this and with what Jamie said. This tech is only if they get you full-on in a full nelson and you're bent over. Otherwise, what would you do? You can do Squatting Sacrifice from a full nelson completely bent over.

    I like sweeping the legs, but I would just drop an elbow. I wouldn't take the chance of trying to lift someone up.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    The spinning part sure seems to go against that "Establishing a Base" principle I learned as one of the most crucial elements to Kenpo!!
    OUR NEW SCHOOL WEBPAGE IS:
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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    Quote Originally Posted by David Todd
    Interesting Comment. I would argue however that the techniques are not completely entertainment. I've used pieces of four techniques that you mentioned in NHB "practice" to either cancel or complete submissions. So no theory here, just application. I am 6'3" and 235lbs, my partners were all bigger than myself, so I know it was the pattern and application not brute strength.

    Doc, don't take this the wrong way, just asking you a question. Please keep in mind that my question is based off the information I have seen posted here and on your site. I have no opinion, but would like to hear directly from you as a senior student of Ed Parker who is trying to lead this community forward.

    IF you saw Ed Parker teaching this ineffective "motion" kenpo and entertainment wrestling around the world and you knew in your heart he was teaching you the most effective information, then why did you not confront him. Why was he never encouraged to amend and repair the polluted and corrupt legacy he was leaving to millions. IF you saw an injustice being done and if you now see the fruit of that injustice, why did you say nothing to him. Personally, I could never learn from a man who taught merely for commercial gain, if in fact that was Mr. Parker's motivation.

    I am making no judgement nor drawing any conclusions. I am asking a simple and logical question based on information I have seen presented. I am asking so as not to put forth an unjust and unfair statement. Personally, I see some validity in what you say. So I ask the question. I am very interested in your response, not to make fruitless argument, but for my personal inventory as to the validity of the statements you make here.

    If you knew nothing about what was going on than no need to answer the question.

    I ask this question purely in a non confrontational and humble manner.

    God Bless,
    David Todd

    Great question that many of us have often wondered. I hope Doc responds to it.

    Thanks for posting it.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    [QUOTE=David Todd]
    Interesting Comment. I would argue however that the techniques are not completely entertainment. I've used pieces of four techniques that you mentioned in NHB "practice" to either cancel or complete submissions. So no theory here, just application. I am 6'3" and 235lbs, my partners were all bigger than myself, so I know it was the pattern and application not brute strength.
    You misunderstood my comment sir. I never said they were completely ‘useless.’ I was commenting on their origin. Every physical movement has some usefulness in a part of its execution. I could scratch the back of my head quickly and hit someone with an elbow ‘accidentally.’ Many techniques were suggested by friends of Mr. Parker from the grappling arts to make people think and consider the possibilities. Many of these attacks however are not likely in the real world, and some completely dysfunctional depending upon size, and other disparities between the parties.
    Doc, don't take this the wrong way, just asking you a question.
    Don’t sweat it buddy.
    Please keep in mind that my question is based off the information I have seen posted here and on your site. I have no opinion, but would like to hear directly from you as a senior student of Ed Parker who is trying to lead this community forward.
    I appreciate the comment, but I’m not trying to ‘lead’ anyone. I was charged by my teacher however to share and make people think. Or, as he said to me, with a big smile I can still see, “Spread the gospel Brudda, spread the gospel.” I am not interested in big organizations, or being an authority on anything other than what I do. I don't recruit. All I do is ask that you think about what you do, and how you go about it. My teacher asked me to do that. I repay him by keeping my promise.
    IF you saw Ed Parker teaching this ineffective "motion" kenpo and entertainment wrestling around the world …
    I’ve never said ‘motion based kenpo’ was ineffective. I have said that the majority of its instructors are bad when it comes to understanding the dynamics of street encounters, and the applications of the available material. Most have never had a real scuffle or had to use what they know in earnest to save their butts. That’s why you have guys under thirty running around with a bar on their belt that wouldn’t last 5 minutes in the lockup I see everyday. Fortunately, they haven’t been tested.
    and you knew in your heart he was teaching you the most effective information, then why did you not confront him. …
    Mr. Parker was teaching me, and did so for almost thirty years, without ever charging me a dime. At what point was I going to tell him what he was teaching some was, in my opinion, not as good? How do I tell my teacher that his decision to create a commercial art to sell to the masses and support his wife and five children was, in my opinion, inferior? How am I supposed to know where he was going with any of his many arts, and with whom? No one who walks into a strip mall school full of middle age women and young children, who think they’re getting the best martial arts knowledge available, is too sharp. If they think they are going to be trained on a level that real street survival requires, they’re kidding themselves. However, if they are learning some skills, getting some cardio, and developing some self-confidence, what’s wrong with that? Motion-kenpo is not worthless, but without a really good and knowledgeable teacher, it can foster a lot of false confidence that will get you hurt. Fortunately, statistically most never have those types of encounters.
    Why was he never encouraged to amend and repair the polluted and corrupt legacy he was leaving to millions. IF you saw an injustice being done and if you now see the fruit of that injustice, why did you say nothing to him. Personally, I could never learn from a man who taught merely for commercial gain, if in fact that was Mr. Parker's motivation.
    We all make decisions based on what we think is happening around us. Mr. Parker was effective with what he did and so were his first generation of students, most coming from other styles. However, you could never teach what he knew in a commercial school. Creating motion kenpo was not a bad thing. It was a good thing. It created a standard of martial arts that had never existed before. It created a degree of uniformity and ‘branded’ his art so no matter where you went there was some similarity in what was presented for a time. In the beginning, it worked quite well. Nevertheless, Mr. Parker was constantly preaching reality testing, exploration, and continuing education even in his commercial art.
    I am making no judgment nor drawing any conclusions. I am asking a simple and logical question based on information I have seen presented. I am asking so as not to put forth an unjust and unfair statement. Personally, I see some validity in what you say. So I ask the question. I am very interested in your response, not to make fruitless argument, but for my personal inventory as to the validity of the statements you make here.

    If you knew nothing about what was going on than no need to answer the question.
    I knew and saw, but it also worked on some level. Not the level I was being taught but remember when he began this venture, most didn’t even know what “Kenpo” was and only a sprinkling knew the word, “karate.” It definitely worked. I had many conversations with Mr. Parker about the quality of the arts. It always boiled down to one thing. He felt the Instructors were responsible for the product, just as I do today. He gave them all of the principles and concepts they needed to be as good or better than any of the other arts of the time. Unfortunately, the bulk of them were only interested in rank, prestige, and money. And not necessarily in that order. Most of them left him when they felt they had enough to go on their own, and didn’t need him. He remained cordial with most, as the business grew. May be some would have wanted him to walk away and open an auto shop or something. But he chose to do what he loved, and bring it to as many people as he could. People of all ages have enjoyed their martial arts kenpo experience. It has brought confidence and happiness to so many people, but like anything mass- produced, you can’t expect it to be the absolute best there is. Nothing that is the best, is ever mass produced.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    I love Twirling Sacrifice. I am 160 lbs and recently taught this technique to one of my students who posts on this forum (Scott Southwell). Scott is just over 200 lbs and I had no problem picking him up and twirling him.

    It is all about leverage, and taking the angle of least resistance ...
    You're ignoring the laws of physics. So you're saying that you lift a guy off the ground who exceeds your own body weight by over 40 pounds and its all a matter of leverage? Leverage where? Maybe you don't know what 'leverage' actually means. even if this were true it would not be something that would contribute to you having a stable stance in a circumstance when you absolutely need one. Tell a woman or small person to lift someone with more muscle mass than they, who exceeds their body weight by 40 pounds. Do you really think that anyone is buying this sir? If it is your favorite technique, I suggest you keep doing it, but don't lead other people down that path. I'm here to help people, not to stroke my own ego.
    when the opponent yanks your head down after applying the full nelson.
    When your head is yanked down your are significantly misaligned and couldn't lift someone that heavy if your life depended on it. Take it to the bank, and let this one go. Don't mislead people. Anyone can test this for themselves and see it is complete and utter nonsense.
    On a side, I agree completely with what David Todd said.
    Also for the record, it is a physical impossibility to place anyone in a full nelson without their complete cooperation. Test it yourself people. It is an entertainment wrestling move not seen in any other art. Take that to the bank.
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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan
    The spinning part sure seems to go against that "Establishing a Base" principle I learned as one of the most crucial elements to Kenpo!!
    Common sense shines alot of light. Doesn't the 'spinning part' remind you of, uhhhhhh, let's see, a WWF wrestling match? (as opposed to real wrestling)
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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    I agree with this and with what Jamie said. This tech is only if they get you full-on in a full nelson and you're bent over. Otherwise, what would you do? You can do Squatting Sacrifice from a full nelson completely bent over.

    I like sweeping the legs, but I would just drop an elbow. I wouldn't take the chance of trying to lift someone up.

    --Amy
    Please don't do it ma'am. It's not in your best interest in my opinion.
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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    Common sense shines alot of light. Doesn't the 'spinning part' remind you of, uhhhhhh, let's see, a WWF wrestling match? (as opposed to real wrestling)
    Well the "People's Elbow" seems to work good for The Rock.

    Technique: The Peoples Elbow from Wikipedia

    People's Elbow is an elbow drop, preceded by a routine that involves The Rock pulling off his elbow pad and throwing it into the audience, bouncing off the ropes, then lifting one leg as if performing a leg drop, and hitting the elbow drop as his opponent lays motionless on the mat.

    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    Quote Originally Posted by katsudo_karate
    Well the "People's Elbow" seems to work good for The Rock.

    Technique: The Peoples Elbow from Wikipedia

    People's Elbow is an elbow drop, preceded by a routine that involves The Rock pulling off his elbow pad and throwing it into the audience, bouncing off the ropes, then lifting one leg as if performing a leg drop, and hitting the elbow drop as his opponent lays motionless on the mat.

    Ouch!
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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    Boy.....this "People's Elbow" looks pretty important too......especially AFTER (as it says) the "opponent lays motionless on the mat".
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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    Doc,

    Thanks for the frank and open nature of your response. It was appreciated and processed.

    God Bless,
    David Todd

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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan
    Boy.....this "People's Elbow" looks pretty important too......especially AFTER (as it says) the "opponent lays motionless on the mat".
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Twirling Sacrifice

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    So you're saying that you lift a guy off the ground who exceeds your own body weight by over 40 pounds and its all a matter of leverage? Leverage where?

    When your head is yanked down your are significantly misaligned and couldn't lift someone that heavy if your life depended on it. Take it to the bank, and let this one go. Don't mislead people. Anyone can test this for themselves and see it is complete and utter nonsense.

    Also for the record, it is a physical impossibility to place anyone in a full nelson without their complete cooperation. Test it yourself people. It is an entertainment wrestling move not seen in any other art. Take that to the bank.
    Let me clarify.

    The counterbalancing of the opponent when executing the twirl aids in the rotational momentum when throwing the opponent into the wall.

    And yes, I am aware of the physical impossibility of a full nelson be applied without cooperation thanks to Clyde O'Briant. So what then do you teach with respect to the catalyst associated with Scraping Hoof, Repeated Devastation, and Twirling Sacrifice?
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
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