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Thread: Mace of Aggression

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    Default Mace of Aggression

    I'd like to discuss the nature of the attack of this move.

    It's a two-hand lapel grab, pulling in.

    It's written to step forward right your right foot, striking the opponent's jaw with a right hammerfist, etc.

    My instructor added a prefix of a right punch to the gut to avoid a potential headbutt.

    Someone else told me something different about the nature of the attack, but I just can't remember.

    My instructor said that the nature of the attack of this one was not fully explained by Mr. Parker.

    What doesn't make sense to me is to do the punch (to avoid a head butt) if we already have that movement in Raking Mace. Know what I mean?

    So I'm thinking that the nature of the attack would likely be different.

    Ideas?

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    It should start with the inward raking back knuckle through the face that converts into the forearm block that collapses their arms down. I think with the punch you'd have to change directions rather than let it flow in a big circle. You might accomplish the same thing but it would appear as it would take longer. Maybe not, I haven't practiced it that way before. I never had a problem when applying it the other way.

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    I'd like to discuss the nature of the attack of this move.
    It's a two-hand lapel grab, pulling in.

    It's written to step forward right your right foot, striking the opponent's jaw with a right hammerfist, etc.
    My instructor added a prefix of a right punch to the gut to avoid a potential headbutt....What doesn't make sense to me is to do the punch (to avoid a head butt) if we already have that movement in Raking Mace. Know what I mean?
    Mace of Aggression is for a lapel grab and straight pull in.Raking Mace is for a lapel grab and pull in with a circular component- it pulls you around to the right a little. At least, that's allways how I've read the attacks.

    We do a right straight hammerfist to the left eye socket for M of A, so there is no chance of a headbutt. The circular motion of the knuckle rake in RM is done because that's what he pulled you into instead of the straight strike.

    Your right hammerfist to the jaw would also stop the headbutt, but a prefixed punch to the gut would cause an unintentional headbutt- especially with the straight pull of M of A.

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression

    Quote Originally Posted by jfarnsworth
    It should start with the inward raking back knuckle through the face that converts into the forearm block that collapses their arms down.
    Are you talking about Raking Mace here? Or do you do a rakung back knuckle for both?

    I was taught that way originally, but corrected later. Just curiouse.

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    Mace of aggression;
    I pin with the left hand over both the attackers. I step in with the right leg while doing a right inward raking back knuckle through the face that then in turn checks the opponents arms down. The right then executes a right inward elbow to the side of the face then an outward to the opposite side of the face.

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    From our reference library on Kenpotalk



    Mace of Aggression (Front- Two Hand Lapel Grab -Pulling In)
    1. An attacker at 12 o'clock grabs your lapels with both of their hands and pulls you in.

    2. Simultaneously pin your attacker's hands with your left hand as you execute a right stomp to your attacker's right instep and a right overhead hammerfist to your attacker's face. (This strike should strike your attacker's face and continue onto the attacker's arms.)

    3. Land in a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you collapse your right arm on top of your attacker's arms. (Utilize marriage of gravity with this strike.) Pull your right arm through into a chamber position. [Your right leg will be acting as a check on your attacker's right knee.]

    4. Execute a right inward elbow strike to the left side of your attacker's jaw.

    5. Shift forward as you execute a right outward elbow strike to the right side of your attacker's jaw.

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression

    That sounds like I originally was taught. Last school changed/corrected that to a thrusting hammerfist instead of a rake because:
    *he pulls you into it, and you borrow his force better
    *he can't roll with the hammer fist
    *much quicker- straight in with the hammerfist, then the arm drops straight down across his as you let go the pin, then rebounds into the inward elbow.

    Both worked, though.

    Thanks.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression

    Where they grab also can dictate which tech you use, they grab high and pull you in, their mid section is more exposed,you do Raking Mace, they grab lower on you then go into Mace of aggression. Also what about high of your attacker, he's really tall wouldn't Raking mace work well.

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression

    Pulled from an original IKKA technique manual.

    Mace of Aggression
    (Front-two hand lapel grab pulling in)
    1. Standing naturally with your opponent grabbing your lapel with both of his hands, while pulling you in and toward him, execute a right stomp on the arch of your opponent's right foot. Simultaneously strike diagonally through the bridge of your opponent's nose (toward 10:30) with a right Inward downward raking back knuckle strike. Have your left hand pin and check both of your opponent's hands to your chest at the same time the stomp and strike are taking place. (Your opponent's knees should buckle from the stomp as your back knuckle strike breaks his nose and momentarily drives his head away.)

    2. Continue the motion of your right arm so that it travels horizontally and down, striking both of your opponent's forearms, which in turn will force your opponent to bend forward.

    3. Immediately execute a right inward horizontal elbow strike to the left side of your opponent's jaw making sure that you follow through with your action. (This will turn your opponent's head to his right.)

    4. Without hesitation return with a right outward horizontal elbow strike to the right side of your opponent' s jaw. (This will force your opponent away from you.)
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression

    I learned it with the first strike being the hammerfist to the face. What I am wondering is.......am I the only one who learned to scrape down the attacker's shin with the knife-edge of your foot before the instep stomp? I don't see it mentioned in the write-ups here.......
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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression

    Greetings!

    I also like to scrape the opponents shin, since many times after steping through the shin I find I get better base and check the oppoents legs better, since I can find the foot to stomp easier. It also distracts better and makes the raking fist invisible.

    Also, I teach it to my students by telling them that this is also used in a situation when you have a "wall" to your back... this is the first technique in which you go forward first in the curriculum. so they have to establish base by moving forward.

    Also, it has to be remembered that Raking Mace was designed first. The Yellow belt curriculum came after the Orange to Black techniques were done. So yellow belt has the base moves for many techniques. So Raking Mace could be seen as a backup to Twin Kimono, and related to Mace of Agression.

    Enjoy!

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression

    Oh... and the shin hit is not in the write ups... but came to me spotaneously, so I use it. I teach it texbooklike though...

    And I've seen variations where even a left handsord and a scoop kick is added before the actual raking mace of aggression part!

    Very enjoyable technique!

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression

    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan
    I learned it with the first strike being the hammerfist to the face. What I am wondering is.......am I the only one who learned to scrape down the attacker's shin with the knife-edge of your foot before the instep stomp? I don't see it mentioned in the write-ups here.......
    Some Kenpoists do it that way. I like that method - plus it hurts like heck!
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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression

    For a beginner's perspective I believe the 'shin rake' or whatever it's called is a really bad idea. The most important thing in this technique is establishing a stable base which prevents the attacker from manipulating you any further. Advising someone to stand on one leg whilst being aggressively man-handled by the attacker is irresponsible on the part of the instructor (in my opinion, of course).

    For the same reason, a specific 'step into to buckle the leg' strategy is also questionable in my opinion. I believe it is far more important to teach a beginner how to achieve a stable neutral-bow first and foremost. The aim should always be structural-integrity first, and any 'nice side-effects' second. In other words, if the leg is there to be buckled it will happen automatically no matter what. If the leg is not in position to be manipulated the risk is that the defender 'over reaches' or otherwise obtains a bad neutral-bow in the misguided belief that this is an important aspect of the technique. Sure you got the leg, but being in a crappy stance as a result isn't going to do you any favours.

    Next, the rake to the face. I don't see this being the most effective option, which is why I don't practice or teach the technique this way anymore. With the attacker pulling you so close in to him, the range between you is far too short to allow an effective strike with your hand; your arm is just not extended far enough (to be structurally sound) before coming into contact. Sure you might draw blood or bust the nose but I want something which is structurally sound and prevents the attacker from controlling my space, after the fact.

    A hammering inward+downward block to the attacker's right shoulder works better for me because the resulting position allows a very strong brace to be formed, completely controlling the attacker's height and depth. No matter how big or strong the attacker is, it is impossible for him to close the gap between you. So rather than aiming for the face you circle your block up high, and drop it/hammer down to the opposite side, with the intent of achieving a defensively strong position.

    However the advantage of this method is the 'built in' strike to the side of the head whilst the attacker is pulling you into him. In a realistic attack you'll be so close that your 'block to the shoulder' will never get there and will connect with his head instead. The 'inward block' formation of the arm is far stronger at this range than a raking backfist so the effect will be greater. Also the closer his head gets to your face, the worse it is for him - with ultimately the 'low gate' of your forearm (elbow) being used to crash into the side of his head. It's *really* effective

    If you manage to manipulate the attacker's hands and wrists correctly, you should also be able to misalign him (controlling his height and width) as you pull his hands across your body. The attacker will ideally lose his height advantage, and be placed in a position to your left and below you, with the side of his neck exposed. Your inward forearm which would have ultimately hit his shoulder still strikes to the same point in space, put because of the attacker's new position now hits the base of his neck instead. It's *even more* effective, not just because of the target you hit, but because the attacker is in such a weak stance that he can't stand up and can't pull out of your grip. And you can halt the technique right there if you want - kind of a 'control and restraint' option where you just hold him off. He can't move or fight back. Only after you survive to this point and have established control, do you choose to pile in with the elbow strikes.

    that's how I do it anyhow

    thoughts anyone?

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression

    Quick Question!

    From experience I have hit people in the head with a hammer fist and it has been lights out more often than not.

    To me the big question is since this is a beginner technique and we are building a fighting vocabulary for the student, why three strikes to the head with blunt weapons. Especially two with such mass behind them.

    What happens to depth after a strike the head, will a collapsing forearm really pull an attacker back in who is rapidly changing depth to escape the impact of the initial strike?

    It seems too often we discuss the "light side" of the system since it is easiest to control, but take a look a the "dark side" or the attacker's perspective and see what you come up with?

    Give it some thought and it will change your ideas about the technique.

    Looking forward to hearing your input.

    God Bless,
    David Todd

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    I'd like to discuss the nature of the attack of this move.

    It's a two-hand lapel grab, pulling in.

    It's written to step forward right your right foot, striking the opponent's jaw with a right hammerfist, etc.

    My instructor added a prefix of a right punch to the gut to avoid a potential headbutt.

    Someone else told me something different about the nature of the attack, but I just can't remember.

    My instructor said that the nature of the attack of this one was not fully explained by Mr. Parker.

    What doesn't make sense to me is to do the punch (to avoid a head butt) if we already have that movement in Raking Mace. Know what I mean?

    So I'm thinking that the nature of the attack would likely be different.

    Ideas?

    --Amy
    I thought that this technique *was* a defence against a head-butt. I mean, when the attacker grabs hold of you like that (aggressively!) you've got to assume that something bad's about to happen...in other words, your response to this attack should be the same regardless of if he tries to butt you or not, because you're not going to be able to tell ahead of time what's going to happen.

    So your response (the rake to the face, or a correctly executed inward block as I prefer) should be valid for more than one fixed attack.

    I don't know why 'Raking Mace' exists in the system because it does seem similar..obviously something in the nature of the attack is different here (vs Mace of Aggression) but I couldn't say what that might be..

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression

    Quote Originally Posted by David Todd
    Quick Question!

    From experience I have hit people in the head with a hammer fist and it has been lights out more often than not.
    true, it's definitely an effective attack. I like looking at these things from a defensive stand-point as well though - for a smaller person defending a large attacker, a raking across the face may not control the attacker's depth much - and if a powerful headbutt is coming in I prefer the solid structure of the inward block being in the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Todd
    To me the big question is since this is a beginner technique and we are building a fighting vocabulary for the student, why three strikes to the head with blunt weapons. Especially two with such mass behind them.

    What happens to depth after a strike the head, will a collapsing forearm really pull an attacker back in who is rapidly changing depth to escape the impact of the initial strike?

    It seems too often we discuss the "light side" of the system since it is easiest to control, but take a look a the "dark side" or the attacker's perspective and see what you come up with?

    Give it some thought and it will change your ideas about the technique.

    Looking forward to hearing your input.

    God Bless,
    David Todd
    My take on this (and other) techniques is this: I don't really buy into the 'blitz' aspect of kenpo, I prefer a measured response. So for me the first move (a block in my case) is to intercept the headbutt and also control depth between us. Because I've got the attacker's hands pinned to me he can't pull out, and because of the posture I've forced him into with the block (now forming a brace between us) he can't close that distance either.

    So from there I decide if I need to continue. The first inward elbow can fire directly out and hits forward at shoulder-height, again forming a wedge/brace between us. It can be a 'knockout' shot to the jaw/neck, or it can just be a defensive measure, again to control depth and prevent the attacker from going anywhere. The important thing for me is to keep my elbow at shoulder height where it's strongest. Usually I'll aim to jam my elbow+forearm up under his chin and really force his body back (whilst keeping him pinned to me of course).

    If the attacker is still fighting my grip then at least I'm holding him away with that lead elbow...he can't collapse my arm at all. So the last option is the outward elbow, again you can target jaw/neck line.

    Hopefull that sounds like what I was taught

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB
    true, it's definitely an effective attack. I like looking at these things from a defensive stand-point as well though - for a smaller person defending a large attacker, a raking across the face may not control the attacker's depth much - and if a powerful headbutt is coming in I prefer the solid structure of the inward block being in the way.
    Not being sarcastic, just asking you a question. If you do not over extend the inward block and shoot past the point of "no return" and not having to reach to strike a "head butt" attempt, is that not an inward block. I have taken block almost entirely out of my vocabulary and inserted "defensive strike".

    As far as giving this technique some life, suppose the attacker is pulling you in for a "hip toss" and you check it with the hammerfist. If he shoots levels and turns his hips, you've got the inward forearm. IF by chance he slips under that to pick or reap your stance, the sequential opportunity of the back elbow comes in handy. Mind you, just one scenario we use so the "overkill" mentality is not employed.

    Thanks for the dialogue.

    David Todd

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression

    David and James, those are some interesting points on this tech. I'll have to try them.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Todd
    I have taken block almost entirely out of my vocabulary and inserted "defensive strike".
    I use the term "recieve," which is what the Okinawans originally used.It got turned around to block when some of the Japanese got ahold of it, as I understand. To recieve implies you take what he gives and do something with it- strike, trap, deflect, or use it against him.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB
    I don't know why 'Raking Mace' exists in the system because it does seem similar..obviously something in the nature of the attack is different here (vs Mace of Aggression) but I couldn't say what that might be..
    I was originally taught Raking Mace with two knuckle rakes, and the downward forearm block after the second. Works really well if they pull and turn you at the same time. If the pull is too long for me to get a good base on the first strike, I still do it with two. If not, I drop the forearm after the first. Also, the forearm is not a problem for pulling him into a head butt since you are going a little to his left. I know it isn't written that way, but that is what I see in the difference.

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression

    Quote Originally Posted by David Todd
    Not being sarcastic, just asking you a question. If you do not over extend the inward block and shoot past the point of "no return" and not having to reach to strike a "head butt" attempt, is that not an inward block. I have taken block almost entirely out of my vocabulary and inserted "defensive strike".
    I'm not clear exactly what you mean here.... are you simply saying that 'all blocks are strikes'? of course I agree with this, however what I was trying to communicate was the physical arm-structure used to 'strike' the head rather than the 'intent'. So rather than a hammerfist which might require a rotation of the forearm to rake across the face, I was suggesting an aligned strike hitting forewards.

    I've found so far that the advantage of using a 'block' as the initial strike gives beginners more confidence in what they are doing - it's already an established 'basic' in their vocabulary and the idea that they would be 'blocking' the headbutt is an easy one for them to grasp. And in my tests it just seems stronger than a raking strike with the fist - a very difficult shot to hit with any accuracy for a beginner at that range

    just my thoughts

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