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Thread: Twist of Fate

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    Default Twist of Fate

    Twist of Fate (Front- Two-Hand Push)
    1. An attacker at 12 o'clock pushes you with both hands.

    2. Step your right foot back to 6 o'clock into a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you execute right and left extended outward handswords to the inside of your attacker's wrists.

    3. Without hesitation, grab your attacker's right wrist with your left hand as your right hand grabs your attacker's left wrist.

    4. Execute a right step-through slicing heel kick to your attacker's right lower ribcage.

    5. Prior to planting your right foot, pivot your entire body counterclockwise (180 degrees) on the ball of your left foot. During this motion, twist your attacker's arms and cross them counterclockwise.

    6. Plant your right foot to 10:30 into a left neutral bow facing 6 o'clock.

    7. Without hesitation, force your attacker's arms to loop your attacker's arms forward, down, and back to you and you push drag back to 10:30.

    8. Pull your attacker's wrists to you as you execute a right knee kick to your attacker's upper spine or head.

    9. Plant your right foot back and cross out to 10:30.

    Let's talk about this one. Why the kick to the ribcage? Why not the knee? (For starters.) I have a hard time with this move because it requires a fair amount of strength and non-slippery hands (I have chronically sweaty palms.)

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    Why the kick to the ribcage? Why not the knee?
    Positions him better for the twist. A kick to the knee would turn him to his right and lower him. The kick to the ribs arches him left (caves the right), keeps his cg higher. Then after you get him twisted his back is arched better for the knee strike.

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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    We do the kick to the hip. This is the 'hinge' of the body; the point from which he will bend. It would seem to me that if I kick the rib cage, his body may tend to move away from me. Don't we want him off balance? It would seem that the kick to the attackers right hip, would force his mid-section back, while his upper body and legs would be forward.

    Also, in Step 5, you seem to be describing a 'turn in the air', which is something we are councilled against. Thinking about the power principle of this technique ... it is Torque, right ?

    Whenever the power principle is torque, we say 'Base-Pivot'. By rotating our body before our foot hits the ground, aren't we not completing the 'Base' part of that idea?

    OK ... it's too late to think about this for an old guy like me ..

    The rest of the write up looks pretty similar to what we do. Although, describing what we are doing with the arms, is a bit of a pain, isn't it?

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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    Let's talk about this one. Why the kick to the ribcage? Why not the knee? (For starters.) I have a hard time with this move because it requires a fair amount of strength and non-slippery hands (I have chronically sweaty palms.)

    --Amy
    Amy,

    The knee works great as well. In either case, once you grab the opponent's wrists and pull down to cancel their height zone, you could use either as both are effective.
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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    our terminology we use for the kick is a right slicing verticle blade kick.. that is about the only diffrence.. oh yeah and we do the kick to the hip as well
    "The sacraed rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself, and can never be erased.""

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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward
    We do the kick to the hip. This is the 'hinge' of the body; the point from which he will bend. It would seem to me that if I kick the rib cage, his body may tend to move away from me. Don't we want him off balance? It would seem that the kick to the attackers right hip, would force his mid-section back, while his upper body and legs would be forward.

    Also, in Step 5, you seem to be describing a 'turn in the air', which is something we are councilled against. Thinking about the power principle of this technique ... it is Torque, right ?

    Whenever the power principle is torque, we say 'Base-Pivot'. By rotating our body before our foot hits the ground, aren't we not completing the 'Base' part of that idea?
    On the money. I can tell you've worked this with Mr. Planas before.

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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    I haven't worked this technique with Mr. Planas, but Mr. Planas is Mr. Hogan's instructor and he is the influence on our studio. That you recognize that influence in my comments is pleasing to me ... it gives me some hope that I might actually be 'getting it'.

    Back to the mat for me ....

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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    Twist of Fate (Front- Two-Hand Push)
    1. An attacker at 12 o'clock pushes you with both hands.

    2. Step your right foot back to 6 o'clock into a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you execute right and left extended outward handswords to the inside of your attacker's wrists.
    When a persons hands are configured for double pushes finger up, and steps forward, it is not possible to separate his arms with the mechanism you suggest.
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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    When a persons hands are configured for double pushes finger up, and steps forward, it is not possible to separate his arms with the mechanism you suggest.
    I was quoting the description in the reference library.
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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    When a persons hands are configured for double pushes finger up, and steps forward, it is not possible to separate his arms with the mechanism you suggest.
    Doc, I thought it was written like that for simplicity. The actual motion of the hands is initially almost a wedge/praying hands posture. Your entry has to be behind his hands/wrists, then the hands turn out in more of a handsword to frictional pull to crane to grab, but very quickly. Very much a sensitivity evolution. Is this what you are refering to?

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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    Even if the opponent shoves your shoulders hard and you miss timing the two hand clear to his arms, the technique works well. You can still grab his arms and continue with the technique. If you miss the grab, no big deal...just graft into Thrusting Salute. Unlike Parting Wings, Twist of Fate was designed where the opponent has penetrated our depth more by the two hand shove.
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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Even if the opponent shoves your shoulders hard and you miss timing the two hand clear to his arms, the technique works well. You can still grab his arms and continue with the technique. If you miss the grab, no big deal...just graft into Thrusting Salute. Unlike Parting Wings, Twist of Fate was designed where the opponent has penetrated our depth more by the two hand shove.
    I don't see any possible way to graft into Thrusting Salute from this attack, or any reason to actually *want* to but maybe I'm just being dim. Wouldn't the attacker be standing in the wrong posture to allow a successful entry with that technique?

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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    Doc, I thought it was written like that for simplicity. The actual motion of the hands is initially almost a wedge/praying hands posture. Your entry has to be behind his hands/wrists, then the hands turn out in more of a handsword to frictional pull to crane to grab, but very quickly. Very much a sensitivity evolution. Is this what you are refering to?
    dan, that first move is perfect scenario to apply what you may be learning in tai chi pushing hands. as the 2-handed push comes into your center, your hands come up from the inside and you step back into a n-bow... basically you are yielding, yet moving your center and adhering to your opponent. for that to be effective, you must also maintain front to back balance by filling the gap with forward energy as you step back... that is peng. so as you yield to the force by stepping back, you turn to n-bow to change your center, and you balance with forward energy through your hands coming upward and outward.

    you do not have to separate his arms, they can remain where they are as long as you change yourself so their relationship to your center is no longer effective for continued pushing.

    pete

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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    Positions him better for the twist. A kick to the knee would turn him to his right and lower him. The kick to the ribs arches him left (caves the right), keeps his cg higher. Then after you get him twisted his back is arched better for the knee strike.
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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    I was quoting the description in the reference library.
    Yeah pretty sad when reference material is so far fetched.
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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB
    I don't see any possible way to graft into Thrusting Salute from this attack, or any reason to actually *want* to but maybe I'm just being dim. Wouldn't the attacker be standing in the wrong posture to allow a successful entry with that technique?
    As I understand it, correct.
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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    I suggest an experiment.

    Have the attacker step through with the two-handed push with constant forward movement/pressure. (As if their intent is to push you across the room with no release of contact.

    The attacker will stiffen their arms in anticipation of the contact, obviously with no desire to voluntarily separte the arms.

    As you step back and begin all these 'cute' moves for the technique, the attacker just keeps plowing forward and ignores you.

    Play fair. Neither of you have to move quickly, but both should be operated at similar speeds for the experiment examination.

    You will find the PNF position of the hand supported by the body structure will not relinquish the arms positions easily, and definitle not while moving away.

    Thought:

    The idea that someone could apply a forward pushing attack with all the accompaning back up mass and inertia, and that the defender could simply step back, manipulate the arms somehow and 'stop' the mass AND reverse their own momentum, stabalize, AND throw a kick from the rear with authority is not good reasoning.

    I can't help but notice how many jump to other aspects of the technique, as opposed to addressing the issue of "Survivng the Initial Assault."

    "If you don't address the beginning, there will be no positive end." - Ron Chapél

    That's my 8 farthings.
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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    I agree the base is not, "double outward hands words." Would not the structure learned in single application, moving forward (bow of compulsion), double application moving forward (thrusting wedge), be the same structure used here. The idea that every move has a reverse, opposite, etc would apply as this structure moves backward. Obviously the impetus for movement is different from the other techniques and the variables will change, however the structure or pattern which is extracted from the universal pattern would remain constant. The "internal rotators" of the body would give their dominant support to the attack of the technique rather than the weaker "external rotators". If this structure makes contact with an attacker's structure moving "full bore", that would change the catalyst and reasoning for moving forward into twist of fate.

    I have tried your "experiment" several times and with several body structures. The triangle or wedge is the only structure I have found that will separate the tensed arms of an attacker, often with him impaling a personal structure on my defense which could draw me forward due to "one scenario" of his reactionary defense.

    Be mindful I am only referring to the structures or positioning question of your post. I am moving across "strict" family grouping boundaries here for the moment.

    Interested in hearing your ideas so as not to apply "cute" maneuvers!

    God Bless,
    David Todd

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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    The idea that someone could apply a forward pushing attack with all the accompaning back up mass and inertia, and that the defender could simply step back, manipulate the arms somehow and 'stop' the mass AND reverse their own momentum, stabalize, AND throw a kick from the rear with authority is not good reasoning.
    doc, it does work better when you yield but not retreat, and move your center so there is no longer any substance for him to push into.

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    Default Re: Twist of Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Even if the opponent shoves your shoulders hard and you miss timing the two hand clear to his arms, the technique works well. You can still grab his arms and continue with the technique. If you miss the grab, no big deal...just graft into Thrusting Salute. Unlike Parting Wings, Twist of Fate was designed where the opponent has penetrated our depth more by the two hand shove.
    I'm sorry to say sir, but I completely disagree for so many reasons there are too many to post. It's just a bad scenario when played out with real committed aggression, and your suggestions have no logical anatomical basis for success on any level.
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