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Thread: The Sleeper hold

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    Default The Sleeper hold

    I'd like to discuss the choke hold in Sleeper.

    I've seen it done two ways.

    The first is after the left block, the right hand does the chop to the neck, then as you step around the attacker, your left hand grabs your right forearm (near the wrist) and apply the choke that way with the attacker's right arm as part of the choke.

    The other way is, after the chop, your right hand hooks around the attacker's neck and your left hand grabs your own forearm closer to your own elbow and applies the choke that way.

    I'm not as familiar with the second way, so I hope I've written it correctly.

    I've always had trouble getting the choke on with the first way, but I'm not that comfortable with the second way either.

    Comments? Pros and cons?

    --Amy
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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    When I do sleeper I do a right ridge hand to caratoid artery then slip my right arm around the next. I have pretty good right shoulder flexibility so when I apply the sleeper hold with my right arm I grab the back of my neck with my right hand, making a much tighter hold on the person's neck, making it much easier to knock them out.
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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    hi amy...

    the first is the actual sleeper hold... it seal the artery that provides oxygen to the brain which makes him pass out.

    the second is a choke hold... that seal the breath by closing the airway.

    a few weeks ago, lee epperson showed me a way to do both at the same time!

    my rule of thumb is upon entry, if the attackers right arm stays above your right arm during the ridge had to the neck, go with #1. if his arm falls below, use #2.

    good topic. i am interested in other opinions and experiences with this...

    pete

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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    a few weeks ago, lee epperson showed me a way to do both at the same time!

    my rule of thumb is upon entry, if the attackers right arm stays above your right arm during the ridge had to the neck, go with #1. if his arm falls below, use #2.

    good topic. i am interested in other opinions and experiences with this...

    pete
    First of all, You got to see Lee? Love that guy. What was the secret? Videotape it and share!

    I'll play with those two options. Thanks.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    I practice and teach both methods, although I prefer both sides of the neck....they black out REALLY QUICK.
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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    The second way as I am reading it is called an open ended triangle. I love doing that way if I am not teaching it. It is better if you are not that big and muscular. This way it does not take much to make them black out.
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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    hi amy...

    the first is the actual sleeper hold... it seal the artery that provides oxygen to the brain which makes him pass out.

    the second is a choke hold... that seal the breath by closing the airway.

    a few weeks ago, lee epperson showed me a way to do both at the same time!

    my rule of thumb is upon entry, if the attackers right arm stays above your right arm during the ridge had to the neck, go with #1. if his arm falls below, use #2.

    good topic. i am interested in other opinions and experiences with this...

    pete
    I prefer the first way that Amy described because even if the sleeper fails, I feel I have pretty good control of the opponent's body.

    The way Sigung LaBounty showed that scissor "choke" it was a true sleeper, pressure was over the carotids, not the larynx. I also feel like it is easier to counter by picking off the "right" arm of the person doing the application.

    Rob's method is common to FMAs because it frees up the left hand to do bad things (like stab the guy in the kidney). I really like this, but my arms are often not long enough to perform it on a larger guy.

    And finally, while we are at it, a good article on what really happens when you apply the sleeper, and it ain't cutting off the oxygen to the brain....

    http://www.thesigung.com/constriction.html

    Lamont
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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    my rule of thumb is upon entry, if the attackers right arm stays above your right arm during the ridge had to the neck, go with #1. if his arm falls below, use #2.
    If his right arm falls below, I'd prefer going for the sleeper from the rear, much strong IMO, and it gives me a shield against other guys.

    Lamont
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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    I read through the article.

    It's interesting (and gross) to see it written out in such bold terms. From watching CSI, I do seem to recall the hemmoraging as being an indication of choking, but didn't realize exactly how it happened.

    It's good to know what to do to keep someone from dying when you don't want them to.

    I remember an instructor at camp doing some various choke holds, then taking a few seconds to do a quick massage on the area to keep it from swelling.

    Thanks for sharing the article.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    I was chocked out with a baton at a camp a few years back. Got a sprained neck as a result. Gramma wasn't happy LOL
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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside
    Rob's method is common to FMAs because it frees up the left hand to do bad things (like stab the guy in the kidney). I really like this, but my arms are often not long enough to perform it on a larger guy.


    Lamont
    My trick for the larger guys, is to step on the back of their knee to make them shorter than me, and so that I can add my weight to the constriction. I also like to push on their left shoulder with my left hand to add the force. I find when I have done this to my students that if I count backwards from 5 to 1 they usually don't hear 1 before they are out.

    I do advise anyone that attempts to take someone all the way out with a sleeper style hold to first learn the revival techniques first then and only then learn the sleeper hold from an instructor. I know a police officer a few years ago who made a slight mistake and someone died, and now he is behind bars because someone resisted arrest.
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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    The idea is to impede the flow of blood to and from the brain. That is what causes unconsiousness. The "hold" is a vice like hold, and I am probably biased due to my jiu-jitsu background, but I prefer to grab my left elbow with my right hand and lock the hold in tight by grabbing my right biceps with the left hand...really sinc it in. You have to be very careful though.. it doesn't take a whole lot before the person will pass out and there is a risk of brain damage. Seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobBroad
    My trick for the larger guys, is to step on the back of their knee to make them shorter than me, and so that I can add my weight to the constriction. I also like to push on their left shoulder with my left hand to add the force. I find when I have done this to my students that if I count backwards from 5 to 1 they usually don't hear 1 before they are out.

    I do advise anyone that attempts to take someone all the way out with a sleeper style hold to first learn the revival techniques first then and only then learn the sleeper hold from an instructor. I know a police officer a few years ago who made a slight mistake and someone died, and now he is behind bars because someone resisted arrest.
    Good advice!
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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    I prefer to grab my left elbow with my right hand and lock the hold in tight by grabbing my right biceps with the left hand...really sinc it in. You have to be very careful though.. it doesn't take a whole lot before the person will pass out and there is a risk of brain damage. Seriously.

    Good advice!
    I like this "sleeper hold" also, and it is my favorite. A slight inhale on your part, after you are locked in, is all it takes and they go out.

    I think they are talking more about the Sleeper as a technique however, using an open ended triangle (cross choke) either naked or with the collar, or the more traditional inside the triangle (right arm and neck) judo or ju-jitsu choke (japanese origin). To me it is about where the right arm is. Last time Mr. LaBounty applied it on me, the right arm really has to be high (near the right ear) to ensure a constriction across the right carotic. The inside ridge of the hand or right outside of the thumb when palm down, if you want to get really specific, is what causes compression on the attacker's left carotic.

    I think the open-ended triange is easier, more convenient, etc, but harder to apply, especially if you are shorter. I use a knee to their knee or leg, to buckle them down for either one, as needed.

    -Michael
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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    Quote Originally Posted by kenposatori
    I think the open-ended triange is easier, more convenient, etc, but harder to apply, especially if you are shorter. I use a knee to their knee or leg, to buckle them down for either one, as needed.
    You know, I never really thought that the reason I don't like it might be due to my height, I definately fall on the shorter side.

    Lamont
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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside
    You know, I never really thought that the reason I don't like it might be due to my height, I definately fall on the shorter side.

    Lamont
    Try the slight buckle of the leg closest to you and see if it helps. Let me know if this makes it any easier.

    -Michael
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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    I always use that buckle....hmmmmm...maybe because I am one of the smallest people at the studio. I also teach it to my students after I show them how the actual technique is supposed to go, just to get the motor running up there.
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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    You just have to be careful to control thier fall lest thier dead weight drag you down.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default "Sleeper Hold" physiology

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside
    And finally, while we are at it, a good article on what really happens when you apply the sleeper, and it ain't cutting off the oxygen to the brain....

    http://www.thesigung.com/constriction.html

    Lamont
    Actually, Mr. Sanchez's explanation is wholly incorrect. There is still much debate surrounding the notion that asphyxia has a causal relationship with petechial hemorrhaging. (See www.charlydmiller.com/LIB04/2000petechiaereview.pdf for a quick summation of the topic.) In addition, I don't know of any evidence suggesting that brain swelling has anything to do with deaths due to asphyxia. Cerebral edema does not (and cannot) begin or dissipate quickly.

    I think it's most likely that hypoxia/anoxia DOES play a major role in death from asphyxiation. (See www.aikiweb.com/techniques/gunther1.html for one explanation. The author is a Medical Examiner in Virginia. I'm not aware of the medical literature she cites, but her description sounds about right.)

    Anyway, this is way off on a tanget, but I thought some clarification was in order.

    Thanks,
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    Default Re: "Sleeper Hold" physiology

    Quote Originally Posted by MHeeler
    I think it's most likely that hypoxia/anoxia DOES play a major role in death from asphyxiation. (See www.aikiweb.com/techniques/gunther1.html for one explanation. The author is a Medical Examiner in Virginia. I'm not aware of the medical literature she cites, but her description sounds about right.)

    Anyway, this is way off on a tanget, but I thought some clarification was in order.

    Thanks,
    MH
    I found this article facinating and enlightening. My original Black Belt thesis form was on chokes, stangles, and smothers, therefore I used the carotid, jugular, and trachea. Obviously the blood constrictions work much faster. My assumption was a reduction of the blood flow to the brain caused a reduction in blood pressure, almost like someone with low blood pressure standing up too fast. So needless to say I enjoyed the article.

    I also study clubs and the closed triangle choke (rear naked), can be done with the stick being utilized as the right forearm, a much less yielding than the radial side (lateral) a stick.

    Great post, but I know Mr. Sanchez from many, many years of training and seminars. He is an awesome martial artist and trains police all over the country. A dialog with him regarding this would be interesting. I am certain what he presented had some basis in fact and I would be interested in exploring this.

    Respectfully,
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    Default Re: The Sleeper hold

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    You just have to be careful to control thier fall lest thier dead weight drag you down.
    If your stances are stong you don't have to worry about this. Event when you are "putting them down", more like droping them when it really counts. In this technique you follow them down into a close kneel to check their lower body and a check with your left hand to check their up body and then blow them away with the right punch. The impact to the ground should be very similar to leap of death, their head should bounce back up for the punch.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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