Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Hooking Wings

  1. #1
    David Todd's Avatar
    David Todd is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    30
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post

    Default Hooking Wings

    Just browsing a thread in MartialTalk and was very interested and intrigued by some of the responses. Most of the talk was about the validity of the technique and its usefulness. I think politics aside, there are some techniques that each of us may "dislike".
    I guess it is just how I teach or perhaps or training mentality, but how many of you practice your techniques with a motivated aggressor? In other words, someone mouthing off, escalating the situation before the actual attack. For me there is no other way to train or to teach because once a student has the mechanics he/she must then have the "meaningful dialouge."
    For example, in the case of Hooking Wings. Mechanically it does not work to push someone at the waist. GIVEN. However, if you "feel" or see the beginnings of a push attack and preempt the attack with a thrusting sweep kick to the right shin or insert a "shin trigger" thus adjusting and temporarily altering the attackers heighth and depth, a continuation on his part quite possibly could be a "LOW" two hand push at the waist.
    That adjustment deletes a good deal of his mass and allows the step back to a cat without the fear of being dumped on your ass.
    The reason I ask is not to get into a pissing contest, only to see who else trains with this mindset. Otherwise, I might as well move on and reinvent the wheel. All techniques and positions can be invalidated if we work hard enough. But too few are working the converse of that validating what we students of kenpo are learning.
    I guess I'm a bit tired of the improvements on the system when I have seen too few really able to work the system as it stands. My hope is that the newbies in this art like myself will eventually ban together and take it back and "fill in" what was left out in our instruction. Don't get me wrong I respect the seniors, I just have the personality that questions this kind of thing.
    So please, let me know what you're thinking and how you adjust these so called "trouble techniques." I really think the trouble is in the teaching.

    God Bless,
    David Todd

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: Hooking Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by David Todd
    Just browsing a thread in MartialTalk and was very interested and intrigued by some of the responses. Most of the talk was about the validity of the technique and its usefulness. I think politics aside, there are some techniques that each of us may "dislike".
    I guess it is just how I teach or perhaps or training mentality, but how many of you practice your techniques with a motivated aggressor? In other words, someone mouthing off, escalating the situation before the actual attack. For me there is no other way to train or to teach because once a student has the mechanics he/she must then have the "meaningful dialouge."
    For example, in the case of Hooking Wings. Mechanically it does not work to push someone at the waist. GIVEN. However, if you "feel" or see the beginnings of a push attack and preempt the attack with a thrusting sweep kick to the right shin or insert a "shin trigger" thus adjusting and temporarily altering the attackers heighth and depth, a continuation on his part quite possibly could be a "LOW" two hand push at the waist.
    That adjustment deletes a good deal of his mass and allows the step back to a cat without the fear of being dumped on your ass.
    The reason I ask is not to get into a pissing contest, only to see who else trains with this mindset. Otherwise, I might as well move on and reinvent the wheel. All techniques and positions can be invalidated if we work hard enough. But too few are working the converse of that validating what we students of kenpo are learning.
    I guess I'm a bit tired of the improvements on the system when I have seen too few really able to work the system as it stands. My hope is that the newbies in this art like myself will eventually ban together and take it back and "fill in" what was left out in our instruction. Don't get me wrong I respect the seniors, I just have the personality that questions this kind of thing.
    So please, let me know what you're thinking and how you adjust these so called "trouble techniques." I really think the trouble is in the teaching.

    God Bless,
    David Todd
    I have to agree with you. I don't like "adjustments" to the system without proper knowlege and understanding- especially removing things because someone doesn't like it, or changing it because it doesn't work (read "I can't make it work properly"), "No one is going to walk up and do that to you," or saying "It is for an attempt" because I can't do it if you really hit me.

    Most of these attacks are more likely to occur in the course of a fight than in a static situation. I think it is best to train the base first, working up to hard or full force from a static, ideal situation, then work these variables. However, in another thread, Doc Chapel got me to thinking that going into this too soon can be counter-productive, creating a lot of "synaptic clutter" instead of an ingrained response. So, I agree in principle, but am rethinking the actual application.

    "Mechanically it does not work to push someone at the waist." Depends where and how. Target the pelvic girdle at about a 45' downward angle and close to perpendicular to the strong axis of his stance and you can take him down. Target the floating ribs and you can hurt or dammage him. Even a soft tissue strike hurts.

    About the cat- you don't have to kick from this stance. It allows you to step away in ballance, in almost any direction, if the technique is blown.

    "All techniques and positions can be invalidated if we work hard enough. But too few are working the converse of that validating what we students of kenpo are learning." To tell the truth, I think too many Kenpoists focus on the techniques as a list of what to do "if." They forget that the main purpose of these techniques is to teach KENPO. They teach us how to move with ballance and coordination under the force of an assault. The drill basics in application.They teach us what works, and why. They teach us to use and understand the principles and concepts that make or break any martial art. They work relationships by working family groupings. They teach targeting and thinking ahead in the dummying of the opponent. They build our understanding in a logical progression, useing the Web of Knowlege and category completion. The system is viable because it is interwoven and complete. The danger in changing things without sufficient knowlege and consideration is that you may fray and weaken the fabric of the system.

    I havn't been over to MartialTalk (I spend too much time here a it is), but it sounds to me like you have the right of the argument.

    Edit: I know these things are true, because I've been lectured so many times about them! I'm the worlds worst offender for taking off on a tangent.
    Last edited by thedan; 03-07-2006 at 02:47 PM.

  3. #3
    pete is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    517
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 241 Times in 144 Posts

    Default Re: Hooking Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by David Todd
    My hope is that the newbies in this art like myself will eventually ban together and take it back and "fill in" what was left out in our instruction.
    you are too modest! but i am with you on your goal to take back kenpo!

    for example, in the thread about Hooking Wings, someone said the low push in question is used in one of our own techniques, Begging Hands... not as a direct 'push' but as a 2 torquing heel palms up under the ribcage. Hooking Wings is a good response to Begging Hands being done to you! that is the kind of Category Completion I like... if we teach you how to do it, we teach you how to defend against it.

    oh yeah... that someone on MT is Kenpo Mama, someone who regularly puts me in my place!

    pete

  4. #4
    David Todd's Avatar
    David Todd is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    30
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post

    Default Re: Hooking Wings

    Gentlemen,

    Thanks for the great responses, I'm impressed and appreciative.

    Dan, not sure what this means, "Doc Chapel got me to thinking that going into this too soon can be counter-productive, creating a lot of "synaptic clutter" instead of an ingrained response. So, I agree in principle, but am rethinking the actual application." in regards to training in a meaningful dialogque.

    Could you or Mr. Chapel please explain if yoGu read this. IF you are referring to the natural occuring fight/flight responses or flintch twitch responses, I agree in principle you need to build the basic first, but disagree about adding it too soon. I teach an aggressive dialogue even to my childrens class from day one. It diffuses the flinch twitch response early and allows the student to work away from a negative response from day one in their training.

    You can disagree and I respect that, but I have seen it work time and time again for the positive, not making better "fighters", but people who can diffuse a situation from an engagement standpoint first because they recognize it. I've done this training with black belts and have interjected a harsh verbal response and aggressive push and they freeze. I've done THE SAME training with a 8 year old orange belt female and she responds, properly. She used strong verbal directives, strong defensive posturing, effective defenses (when needed) and ethical proportion. In other words. When she read that she had administered enough of a defense, she disengaged the technique and covered out. She understands that Kenpo is a tool in her defensive language. It was no longer an Art.

    "Mechanically it does not work to push someone at the waist." Depends where and how. Target the pelvic girdle at about a 45' downward angle and close to perpendicular to the strong axis of his stance and you can take him down. Target the floating ribs and you can hurt or dammage him. Even a soft tissue strike hurts.
    About the cat- you don't have to kick from this stance. It allows you to step away in ballance, in almost any direction, if the technique is blown.
    "

    I agree with you totally that is the point of the post.

    "All techniques and positions can be invalidated if we work hard enough. But too few are working the converse of that validating what we students of kenpo are learning." To tell the truth, I think too many Kenpoists focus on the techniques as a list of what to do "if." They forget that the main purpose of these techniques is to teach KENPO. They teach us how to move with ballance and coordination under the force of an assault. The drill basics in application.They teach us what works, and why. They teach us to use and understand the principles and concepts that make or break any martial art. They work relationships by working family groupings. They teach targeting and thinking ahead in the dummying of the opponent. They build our understanding in a logical progression, useing the Web of Knowlege and category completion. The system is viable because it is interwoven and complete. The danger in changing things without sufficient knowlege and consideration is that you may fray and weaken the fabric of the system."

    Again I agree with you and like the explanation. I would disagree though in regards to teaching the system in terms of "what ifs." I know what you mean, but would have the say the structure of the system not only encourages this, but demands it. Once you have worked the "purpose" of the system as you clearly stated, It is only logical to understand why techniques and attacks are ordered and presented as they are. I think tool many people use the "do not do" to cover the "i don't know". Again from experience, my students can tell me why they are doing a technique and where it comes from AS I teach it. They are self correcting and self adjusting. As a teacher that is what I strive for. It helps me too. By them concluding the similar trains of thought which are valid, I can easily see that the formula of the system is applicable and can reproduced if followed.

    Let me say in closing, that so far, you all are more "intellectual" in your approach about understanding the System. I appreciate that and look forward to what you can teach me in the future.

    God Bless,
    David Todd

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: Hooking Wings

    "Knowledge is not enough, one must apply"-Bruce Lee

    There are plenty of techniques that I don't personally feel I would use. Doesn't mean they aren't effective for someone else. SGM Parker addressed this in one the "Insights" books. I don't have the exact volume or page number at hand, but he basically stated that you should retain all useful information if you plan to teach. What you may dislike, or prefer not to use may be preferable or useful to another.

    In regards to changing things...SGM Parker intended the art to evolve and improve. Why do you think he didn't chose a successor so to speak? IMO, he wanted his black belts to go off and improve separately. I don't think he meant them to stay separated though. I really feel he wanted them to share their findings.

    Think about it...what's the best way to find the solution to a problem? Form separate teams with different strengths and have them all work on the problem. One or more teams will find a solution, but evaluate how they came about their findings. One may be more efficient than the other, or they may simply have found a unique way to address it that you hadn't thought of. We get trapped inside paradigms and the best way to break out is to bring in an 'outsider' to present new ideas! That's why I feel this forum is such a great resource. I can be exposed to different approaches I hadn't thought of.

    So, if altering or adjusting an existing technique, it's important to focus on the logic of it and test it out and analyze it to see if the principles being applied are sound and effective concerning the type of attack you are defending against.
    ....my 0.02
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

  6. #6
    David Todd's Avatar
    David Todd is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    30
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post

    Default Re: Hooking Wings

    Thanks Crippler,

    I'm not saying we should not move the system forward or not to teach techniques. I am saying you need to know what the technique is communicating. As you say, think about, how can a student learn to use geometry without learning theorems. It is impossible. However, once they understand the theorem, they can plug any information in and come up with an answer. All I am saying is people have a tendency to move past a technique because "they don't like it" or they think they "have a better way". Truth is they have not taken the time to work the thereom of the technique.

    I myself have added a ground, handgun, knife and club curriculum at my school. Does that mean I no longer teach Kenpo. To the contrary. It needs to be taught to understand the "new" material. I have not gone willy nilly and brought a bunch of stuff in from the outside. All the new material is taught with the same principles, concepts and structure.

    You can believe its ok to go off and reinvent the wheel, but I'd just rather streamline the design of the car.

    David Todd

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: Hooking Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by David Todd
    Thanks Crippler,

    I'm not saying we should not move the system forward or not to teach techniques. I am saying you need to know what the technique is communicating. As you say, think about, how can a student learn to use geometry without learning theorems. It is impossible. However, once they understand the theorem, they can plug any information in and come up with an answer. All I am saying is people have a tendency to move past a technique because "they don't like it" or they think they "have a better way". Truth is they have not taken the time to work the thereom of the technique.

    I myself have added a ground, handgun, knife and club curriculum at my school. Does that mean I no longer teach Kenpo. To the contrary. It needs to be taught to understand the "new" material. I have not gone willy nilly and brought a bunch of stuff in from the outside. All the new material is taught with the same principles, concepts and structure.

    You can believe its ok to go off and reinvent the wheel, but I'd just rather streamline the design of the car.

    David Todd
    LOL. No arguments here. I have seen plenty of 'square wheels' in my time.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: Hooking Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by David Todd
    Dan, not sure what this means, "Doc Chapel got me to thinking that going into this too soon can be counter-productive, creating a lot of "synaptic clutter" instead of an ingrained response. So, I agree in principle, but am rethinking the actual application." in regards to training in a meaningful dialogque.
    Here's the thread:

    Realism in "Push" techniques

    It's #17 from the top.

    Basically, I'm thinking of not running scenarios with any particular technique. Training in deescalation skills is still a good thing, I think. Perhaps just not running one specific defense off them at this point.

    Not sure about training techniques from different modes of attack, either. Like, say, doing Locking Horns from a clinch where he gets both arms inside and tries to pull you down into a knee. I do believe in realism in the assault, though. One that allways gets me is our defenses for a "football tackle." The only place I've ever seen someone lower their head and run at you from half a block away is in American Kenpo schools. You don't even see that on the football field! My opinion is that attack should come from more like a half a step away.

    IF you are referring to the natural occuring fight/flight responses or flintch twitch responses, I agree in principle you need to build the basic first, but disagree about adding it too soon. I teach an aggressive dialogue even to my childrens class from day one. It diffuses the flinch twitch response early and allows the student to work away from a negative response from day one in their training.

    You can disagree and I respect that, but I have seen it work time and time again for the positive, not making better "fighters", but people who can diffuse a situation from an engagement standpoint first because they recognize it. I've done this training with black belts and have interjected a harsh verbal response and aggressive push and they freeze. I've done THE SAME training with a 8 year old orange belt female and she responds, properly. She used strong verbal directives, strong defensive posturing, effective defenses (when needed) and ethical proportion. In other words. When she read that she had administered enough of a defense, she disengaged the technique and covered out. She understands that Kenpo is a tool in her defensive language. It was no longer an Art.
    Far from disagreeing, I'd be interested in hearing more about this- possibly in a thread of its own if you care to do it.

    I would disagree though in regards to teaching the system in terms of "what ifs." I know what you mean, but would have the say the structure of the system not only encourages this, but demands it. Once you have worked the "purpose" of the system as you clearly stated, It is only logical to understand why techniques and attacks are ordered and presented as they are. I think tool many people use the "do not do" to cover the "i don't know". Again from experience, my students can tell me why they are doing a technique and where it comes from AS I teach it. They are self correcting and self adjusting. As a teacher that is what I strive for. It helps me too. By them concluding the similar trains of thought which are valid, I can easily see that the formula of the system is applicable and can reproduced if followed.
    I like your philosophy of teaching Kenpo, and would tend to agree with you in everything. However, I am reevaluating what I do (as a student- I don't teach, nor am I senior enough to do so) for two reasons. First, when someone with the seniority and knowlege of Dr. Chapel recomends something, I probably should at least think about it (for that matter, I'll listen to and consider any valid opinion). Second, I'm not able to train like I used to, and have to set some priorities (health reasons). So what I consider for me doesn't necessarily reflect my opinion of someone elses program.

    I look forward to reading more input from you.

    In Kenpo,
    Dan C

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Elk Grove, CA
    Posts
    4,018
    Thanks
    1,163
    Thanked 913 Times in 561 Posts

    Default Re: Hooking Wings

    Well, I can say from my own experience, that the beginning part works well.

    I sometimes do a modified version of this using double palm-heels to the top of the hands instead of the hooking part.

    I did it once at a bar (many MANY years ago), when I was dancing with a guy who thought it appropriate to put his hands on my waist.

    I couldn't exactly call it an attack, but he had no business touching me.

    I did a double palm-heel to his hands as I stepped back. His face was brought forward (open-jawed surprise and all) so I could've easily follow-up with strikes if I wanted to.

    So, it worked well.

    I personally like this move all the way up to the extension, which I SEE why it's good, I just don't like it and wouldn't use it.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Hooking Wings Extension
    By amylong in forum EPAK Technical Studies
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 02-13-2006, 10:23 PM
  2. Parkers Kenpo Technique Listing - 24 Technique Curriculum
    By Bob Hubbard in forum Ed Parker Kenpo
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-27-2006, 05:07 PM
  3. Wings Of Silk
    By Rob Broad in forum Ed Parker Kenpo
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-26-2006, 01:21 AM
  4. Parting Wings
    By Rob Broad in forum Ed Parker Kenpo
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-25-2006, 01:08 AM
  5. Hooking Wings
    By Rob Broad in forum Ed Parker Kenpo
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-24-2006, 08:15 PM