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Thread: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

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    Default Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    Does anyone know of anybody that took the techniques and made them a continuous form (kinda like the IKCA) but from the EPAK system???

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    Default Re: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    Does anyone know of anybody that took the techniques and made them a continuous form (kinda like the IKCA) but from the EPAK system???
    Yep! done to study and deliver a more impactful and meaningful understanding of a mass attack scenario.
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    Default Re: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    When I was doing my thesis form, I had a conversation with Huk. He made it very clear that he knows how to do five swords. Seeing five swords in a form (again) would not be of value to him, nor would it show him anything about my competence in the system. For my thesis form, he said that "I" should make up the techniques; demonstrating comprehension and understanding of the rules and principles taught in the systems techniques and forms.

    Another comment, at a different time, is that most people can't do Form 4 well, in a tournament because of fatigue. That represents 20 techniques, on both sides. It would seem that attempting to do 150 some odd techniques (even if you only do one side, each) is going to lead physical limitations for most practitioners.

    But, if you see value in the idea ... go for it.

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    Default Re: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    When I was doing my thesis form, I had a conversation with Huk. He made it very clear that he knows how to do five swords. Seeing five swords in a form (again) would not be of value to him, nor would it show him anything about my competence in the system. For my thesis form, he said that "I" should make up the techniques; demonstrating comprehension and understanding of the rules and principles taught in the systems techniques and forms.

    Another comment, at a different time, is that most people can't do Form 4 well, in a tournament because of fatigue. That represents 20 techniques, on both sides. It would seem that attempting to do 150 some odd techniques (even if you only do one side, each) is going to lead physical limitations for most practitioners.

    But, if you see value in the idea ... go for it.
    Great Point 👍 Thank You, I appreciate the guidance. 😎🙏

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    Default Re: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    Consider this. “Technique” forms may not be just about the techniques. They should be as much about the transitions between multiple angles of attacks. The ability to adjust pre-mid-post technique if often overlooked by instructors. A technique form is one way to lay a foundation of maneuverability in training. Not to mention a way of practicing base techniques using visualization.

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    Default Re: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    Just a thought about "multiple attacker" scenarios. One thing I almost NEVER see when forms are put together to address multiple attackers and that is a movement strategy with them. Most of the time, the person is standing in the center of the clock and just addresses different angles. What happens when you are moving? How do they chase you? For example, a quick little experiment. Pick 3 people to "attack you", and retreat a line away from them that will make them adjust and "stack" slightly. EVERY time, the two closest will crowd closest to you and the third guy will run around to your open side to get at you. How do you capitalize on that? How does adding throws effect their movement? How about a dump? How do you incapacitate an attacker to use as a shield?

    So, in my opinion, this would be time better spent. A form with a specific theme and strategy. I agree that just stringing techniques together doesn't add much other than a time saver to run through the material quicker.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

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    Default Re: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    Just a thought about "multiple attacker" scenarios. One thing I almost NEVER see when forms are put together to address multiple attackers and that is a movement strategy with them. Most of the time, the person is standing in the center of the clock and just addresses different angles. What happens when you are moving? How do they chase you? For example, a quick little experiment. Pick 3 people to "attack you", and retreat a line away from them that will make them adjust and "stack" slightly. EVERY time, the two closest will crowd closest to you and the third guy will run around to your open side to get at you. How do you capitalize on that? How does adding throws effect their movement? How about a dump? How do you incapacitate an attacker to use as a shield?

    So, in my opinion, this would be time better spent. A form with a specific theme and strategy. I agree that just stringing techniques together doesn't add much other than a time saver to run through the material quicker.
    I wonder if that is effectively possible in the context of a form. Seems to me that with a form, no matter how you structure it, it’s going to be one-after-another-after-another in the practice. I think the footwork and positioning and strategy you are talking about is better worked within a live group training.
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    Default Re: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    I did create some forms years ago, which I eventually abandoned. I pretty much did what you describe, with the Tracy curriculum. For each belt curriculum I created one or two forms from those SD techs that were not already contained within a form. My reasoning was that it was easier to remember all the techs for regular practice when they were grouped within a form, then when they were just a list of individual techs. That way I wouldn’t need to take an actual list with me for practice. It did make for a lot more forms, though.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    I wonder if that is effectively possible in the context of a form. Seems to me that with a form, no matter how you structure it, it’s going to be one-after-another-after-another in the practice. I think the footwork and positioning and strategy you are talking about is better worked within a live group training.
    It is, possible. Each form should be a "scenario" that takes into account environment, attacker's pre-engagement positioning and what you need/want to accomplish. They will also be much shorter in application.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    It is, possible. Each form should be a "scenario" that takes into account environment, attacker's pre-engagement positioning and what you need/want to accomplish. They will also be much shorter in application.
    I think the problem is that it creates a scenario that is very staged. It does not take into account how dynamically chaotic a mass-attack scenario is likely to be. That is what I feel is better explored with a live group. You work on moving and positioning based on a changing environment. You identify strategies and goals that you want to accomplish with your positioning that I don’t feel can be realized in a fixed kata. The dynamic and chaotic nature of a mass-attack just falls short when you try to turn it into a kata.

    Tracys has a series of SD techs at green belt that are aimed at mass-attack, and a form built out of those techniques. When you say that they ought to be a much shorter application, perhaps what you envision might be similar to those Tracy techs. And I can get on board with those to a degree in terms of working out individual scenarios of two simultaneous attackers. But as a kata, in my opinion it becomes a series of sequential, two-person scenarios. I don’t feel there is much gained by stringing them together into a kata. What benefit they may have, is found in what they are individually.

    in my opinion, a kata is very useful as a way to practice a series of principles of movement through the expression of techniques. There are stepping and positioning principles of the physical movement, and the various striking techniques and such. But this is an element of fundamentals. The kata is more advanced practice than lone fundamentals, because it strings together a series of techniques with movement and positioning and transitions. It is more difficult to maintain the foundational principles while doing that movement and making those transitions, than it is when doing lone fundamentals. So it is a very valuable tool as a next-level-up approach to drilling those skills. But I don’t feel it is an effective venue in which to practice what could be described as a more random scenario of movement and chaos, which a mass attack situation would be.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    I think the problem is that it creates a scenario that is very staged. It does not take into account how dynamically chaotic a mass-attack scenario is likely to be. That is what I feel is better explored with a live group. You work on moving and positioning based on a changing environment. You identify strategies and goals that you want to accomplish with your positioning that I don’t feel can be realized in a fixed kata. The dynamic and chaotic nature of a mass-attack just falls short when you try to turn it into a kata.

    Tracys has a series of SD techs at green belt that are aimed at mass-attack, and a form built out of those techniques. When you say that they ought to be a much shorter application, perhaps what you envision might be similar to those Tracy techs. And I can get on board with those to a degree in terms of working out individual scenarios of two simultaneous attackers. But as a kata, in my opinion it becomes a series of sequential, two-person scenarios. I don’t feel there is much gained by stringing them together into a kata. What benefit they may have, is found in what they are individually.

    in my opinion, a kata is very useful as a way to practice a series of principles of movement through the expression of techniques. There are stepping and positioning principles of the physical movement, and the various striking techniques and such. But this is an element of fundamentals. The kata is more advanced practice than lone fundamentals, because it strings together a series of techniques with movement and positioning and transitions. It is more difficult to maintain the foundational principles while doing that movement and making those transitions, than it is when doing lone fundamentals. So it is a very valuable tool as a next-level-up approach to drilling those skills. But I don’t feel it is an effective venue in which to practice what could be described as a more random scenario of movement and chaos, which a mass attack situation would be.
    I agree with some of what you say and disagree with some of it. Human behavior can be predictable in many cases. A mass attack is chaotic because no one takes control of it and just reacts. By having a strategy and understanding human behavior, you can shape and make it less chaotic. But, kata just like a football play has a "perfect strategy" that can be practiced to get it down, but just like in football you adapt the play as it unfolds. Your kata should be the same way.

    One of the "rules" in our forms is that "the hungriest guy gets fed first". For example, if I have two guys in front of me, lets say 10 and 2 and I move to 4 o'clock, I know that they are both going to take the quickest path to get to me, which puts the guy at 2 in front of me now and has temporarily blocked off the other guy. I also know that nature abhors a vacuum, so when I "retreat" they will fill that void. They want me and they will come to get me (one of the main differences between sports and street is this type of psychology). Now that I have drawn them in, I have options based on what I want to do. The form is based on the "attacker" always having to react to your movement and you are always, always moving and they have to "chase" to get to you.

    This is a completely different idea and look to Tracy's Mass Attack set, which if you watch the person pretty much stands in the middle and is basically just addressing angles of attack. There is no psychology of confrontation involved in his movement.


    Another example that has nothing about manipulating the attackers with movement


    For lack of a better video, but to illustrate the idea. Watch aikido randori, the person is constantly moving and turning and make the attackers chase after them. Now using that movement and insert your striking techniques from kenpo each time you move and reposition. All of that movement is trained through the techniques of tenkan and irimi (entering and turning).
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    I agree with some of what you say and disagree with some of it. Human behavior can be predictable in many cases. A mass attack is chaotic because no one takes control of it and just reacts. By having a strategy and understanding human behavior, you can shape and make it less chaotic. But, kata just like a football play has a "perfect strategy" that can be practiced to get it down, but just like in football you adapt the play as it unfolds. Your kata should be the same way.

    One of the "rules" in our forms is that "the hungriest guy gets fed first". For example, if I have two guys in front of me, lets say 10 and 2 and I move to 4 o'clock, I know that they are both going to take the quickest path to get to me, which puts the guy at 2 in front of me now and has temporarily blocked off the other guy. I also know that nature abhors a vacuum, so when I "retreat" they will fill that void. They want me and they will come to get me (one of the main differences between sports and street is this type of psychology). Now that I have drawn them in, I have options based on what I want to do. The form is based on the "attacker" always having to react to your movement and you are always, always moving and they have to "chase" to get to you.

    This is a completely different idea and look to Tracy's Mass Attack set, which if you watch the person pretty much stands in the middle and is basically just addressing angles of attack. There is no psychology of confrontation involved in his movement.


    Another example that has nothing about manipulating the attackers with movement


    For lack of a better video, but to illustrate the idea. Watch aikido randori, the person is constantly moving and turning and make the attackers chase after them. Now using that movement and insert your striking techniques from kenpo each time you move and reposition. All of that movement is trained through the techniques of tenkan and irimi (entering and turning).
    i understand the issues you are bringing up; and for the record, I am not a fan of the Tracy mass-attack material.

    I simply feel that kata is not a good venue in which to capture what you are describing. Perhaps some kind of spontaneous shadow-boxing would be a better prelude to working with a group of training partners.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    I agree with some of what you say and disagree with some of it. Human behavior can be predictable in many cases. A mass attack is chaotic because no one takes control of it and just reacts. By having a strategy and understanding human behavior, you can shape and make it less chaotic. But, kata just like a football play has a "perfect strategy" that can be practiced to get it down, but just like in football you adapt the play as it unfolds. Your kata should be the same way.

    One of the "rules" in our forms is that "the hungriest guy gets fed first". For example, if I have two guys in front of me, lets say 10 and 2 and I move to 4 o'clock, I know that they are both going to take the quickest path to get to me, which puts the guy at 2 in front of me now and has temporarily blocked off the other guy. I also know that nature abhors a vacuum, so when I "retreat" they will fill that void. They want me and they will come to get me (one of the main differences between sports and street is this type of psychology). Now that I have drawn them in, I have options based on what I want to do. The form is based on the "attacker" always having to react to your movement and you are always, always moving and they have to "chase" to get to you.

    This is a completely different idea and look to Tracy's Mass Attack set, which if you watch the person pretty much stands in the middle and is basically just addressing angles of attack. There is no psychology of confrontation involved in his movement.


    Another example that has nothing about manipulating the attackers with movement


    For lack of a better video, but to illustrate the idea. Watch aikido randori, the person is constantly moving and turning and make the attackers chase after them. Now using that movement and insert your striking techniques from kenpo each time you move and reposition. All of that movement is trained through the techniques of tenkan and irimi (entering and turning).
    OK, I just actually watched the videos. I had a feeling I knew what was on them, so I didn't really pay attention to them the first time through.

    Regarding the first video, the Tracy Mass Attack form. Part of me wants to give the fellow the benefit of the doubt in that perhaps he was doing the kata the way he was, because he was trying to show something specific. Just what that might be, I have no idea. But if there was a definition of kata done without engagement and spirit, this would be it. Holy crap.

    The second video, I had assumed it was another video of the Tracy material, but clearly it is not. I agree with you, whatever this fellow's notion of multiple attackers is, it fails to translate into the kata. What he is doing is simply serial defense, one person after another. That does not equate to dealing with multiple attackers. It is simply dealing with one attacker at a time, over and over. This kind of makes my point though, I'm not sure how you could create a kata that actually engages like a real multiple attacker scenario, without just becoming serial defense of single attackers. But maybe i am simply lacking in imagination.

    The third video, well I have always enjoyed watching aikido randori. Regardless of what Segal has become now, he was pretty kick-ass back in the day.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    OK, I just actually watched the videos. I had a feeling I knew what was on them, so I didn't really pay attention to them the first time through.

    Regarding the first video, the Tracy Mass Attack form. Part of me wants to give the fellow the benefit of the doubt in that perhaps he was doing the kata the way he was, because he was trying to show something specific. Just what that might be, I have no idea. But if there was a definition of kata done without engagement and spirit, this would be it. Holy crap.

    The second video, I had assumed it was another video of the Tracy material, but clearly it is not. I agree with you, whatever this fellow's notion of multiple attackers is, it fails to translate into the kata. What he is doing is simply serial defense, one person after another. That does not equate to dealing with multiple attackers. It is simply dealing with one attacker at a time, over and over. This kind of makes my point though, I'm not sure how you could create a kata that actually engages like a real multiple attacker scenario, without just becoming serial defense of single attackers. But maybe i am simply lacking in imagination.

    The third video, well I have always enjoyed watching aikido randori. Regardless of what Segal has become now, he was pretty kick-ass back in the day.
    The first video, it was merely a reference to the Tracy material and not a judgment of the performance. I used it to illustrate that in most cases the defender is stationary and addressing clock angles of attackers and not really getting into attacker management.

    I agree about Segal, I still enjoy watching his older movies and he was legit as an aikidoka.

    I do get where you are coming from and I think that this is where many things break down in martial arts. What I mean is that your objection to the idea of having a "blueprint strategy" of multiple attackers in the form of a kata is that because in a "real life" the situation is to unpredictable. I think that this applies to any self-defense technique in kenpo (and most other arts). It ingrains ideas and concepts to use in a spontaneous manner and aren't meant to be used exactly as scripted. I agree with that concept. I think where we differ is that I see that a form CAN be designed to ingrain those ideas and concepts and how to set those things up with your techniques--things like obstacles, shields or entangling).

    Because lets say you do just a "freestyle sparring" with multiple attackers and you find that certain moves and strategies work a high percentage of the time. You isolate that and practice it and put them together, you have just created a form (template).
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

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    Default Re: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    The first video, it was merely a reference to the Tracy material and not a judgment of the performance. I used it to illustrate that in most cases the defender is stationary and addressing clock angles of attackers and not really getting into attacker management.

    I agree about Segal, I still enjoy watching his older movies and he was legit as an aikidoka.

    I do get where you are coming from and I think that this is where many things break down in martial arts. What I mean is that your objection to the idea of having a "blueprint strategy" of multiple attackers in the form of a kata is that because in a "real life" the situation is to unpredictable. I think that this applies to any self-defense technique in kenpo (and most other arts). It ingrains ideas and concepts to use in a spontaneous manner and aren't meant to be used exactly as scripted. I agree with that concept. I think where we differ is that I see that a form CAN be designed to ingrain those ideas and concepts and how to set those things up with your techniques--things like obstacles, shields or entangling).

    Because lets say you do just a "freestyle sparring" with multiple attackers and you find that certain moves and strategies work a high percentage of the time. You isolate that and practice it and put them together, you have just created a form (template).
    Actually, that is my point exactly. We need to practice how pivoting, maneuvering, and adjusting to different angles of attack (and defense) is best accomplished. Not to get locked into a “structure” of defense, but to familiarize ourselves with those movements and adjustments. The first time you need to do it shouldn’t be the first time you do it. A technique form is “a” tool to be considered.

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    Default Re: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    The first video, it was merely a reference to the Tracy material and not a judgment of the performance. I used it to illustrate that in most cases the defender is stationary and addressing clock angles of attackers and not really getting into attacker management.

    I agree about Segal, I still enjoy watching his older movies and he was legit as an aikidoka.

    I do get where you are coming from and I think that this is where many things break down in martial arts. What I mean is that your objection to the idea of having a "blueprint strategy" of multiple attackers in the form of a kata is that because in a "real life" the situation is to unpredictable. I think that this applies to any self-defense technique in kenpo (and most other arts). It ingrains ideas and concepts to use in a spontaneous manner and aren't meant to be used exactly as scripted. I agree with that concept. I think where we differ is that I see that a form CAN be designed to ingrain those ideas and concepts and how to set those things up with your techniques--things like obstacles, shields or entangling).

    Because lets say you do just a "freestyle sparring" with multiple attackers and you find that certain moves and strategies work a high percentage of the time. You isolate that and practice it and put them together, you have just created a form (template).
    No, I wasn’t accusing you of passing judgement on the performance, but I most certainly was. That was disappointing.

    Fair enough on the other comments. Like I said, maybe I’m lacking in imagination, but I’m having a hard time seeing kata as a useful tool for this particular topic. But like most things, ones mileage will vary.
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    Default Re: Has anyone taken the techniques and made forms of them???

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    When I was doing my thesis form, I had a conversation with Huk. He made it very clear that he knows how to do five swords. Seeing five swords in a form (again) would not be of value to him, nor would it show him anything about my competence in the system. For my thesis form, he said that "I" should make up the techniques; demonstrating comprehension and understanding of the rules and principles taught in the systems techniques and forms.

    Another comment, at a different time, is that most people can't do Form 4 well, in a tournament because of fatigue. That represents 20 techniques, on both sides. It would seem that attempting to do 150 some odd techniques (even if you only do one side, each) is going to lead physical limitations for most practitioners.

    But, if you see value in the idea ... go for it.
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