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Thread: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

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    Default Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    1. I am facing the bad guy in my usual readiness stance, slightly waving both hands around and saying: "Take it easy, there's no need to fight on a day like this" (or whatever comes to mind). Or, if it's a surprise attack, I could be standing at the bus stop while whistling "What a Wonderful World" when the guy suddenly tries to knock me out (in order to steal my ticket).
    2. So, the bad guy steps his left forward and throws a left roundhouse punch. It could be a straight punch or a push instead, I don't really care: I step my left foot back to 7:30. Yes, that's right. Because I used to be an Aikido guy who tends to avoid moving back in a straight line; so I will be where my opponent doesn't expect me, plus (since he turned his body when firing the punch) I now have his centreline right in front of me, as I land in a cat. My right extended outward block rakes down his forearm towards his hand, activating Large Intestine, Lung and/or Pericardium kyusho on the way, depending on how much he rotates his arm. The raking motion makes sure that I actually get some of these kyusho and is the recommended direction of force for several of them anyway; moreover, it unbalances the attacker by frictional pull. My somewhat circular footwork supports this kind of "block". My right hand checks in front of my chest.
    3. Right front snap kick to the low Conceptor Vessel (bladder area). Two ways of doing this: Keeping my balance, thus being able to change course if the opponent does something unexpected and giving me a little more "marriage of gravity" in the following chop; or throwing my whole body forward with the kick while, thus sacrificing my balance and control, however, it's fast and hard to block. I remember how, back in my Shotokan days, I got one of my instructors with this kind of commited kick, even though it was with the back leg, and he knew that I was going to use a front kick! Comments, anybody?
    4. I land with a downard diagonal handsword hitting LI-17, GB-20, GB-21, BL-10, GV-15 or even TH-17, depending on how much the attacker bends over now. I snap my handsword back up, covering the right side of my head and ready to deliver another chop, while my left hand continues to check in front of my body. (I prefer this over other variations that I have seen for the positioning of the hands, like glancing through with the handsword and covering the right side by the other hand.)


    An interesting aside: John La Tourrette shows in Secrets of American Kung Fu this technique for a left roundhouse punch while the attacker steps in with the right foot. That should work too, although perhaps the kick needs to be modified under certain circumstances.

    As always, comments on all aspects of my SoD are welcome (even from you naysayers out there ).

    Star Dragon

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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    Several observances come to mind.

    1. I realize that by blocking from a cat you feel you're readying the kick more quickly...but by doing so, you lose stability, control and power. Blocking from transition stances such as cats are primarily only appropriate if the block is a minor...and as such is followed by a major/clearing block. IMO. This is covered in Short and Long Form 1.

    2. Your hand movements post-block seem to be slightly wasteful or redundant. I'm not certain if this is being looked at (from your POV) as a base technique, a technique with an extension, or a technique modified to better fit your previous ways of movement. In either case I feel you may be going about it in the "wrong" way. I say this with the admonition that nothing is inherently wrong...and is a matter of opinion. Your method reminds me more closely of Shielding Hammer from the Orange Belt Requirements. Not sure where you're at with all of this.

    3. Your targeting for the kick seems needlessly high. I tend to go for the nuts...but taking out a knee could be much stronger, faster, and more effective in discouraging continued resistance from his end. I'll also concede that that strategy may introduce some interesting side effects/what-ifs...but hey sometimes that's the more-fun way to go.

    Just some things to think about. My own opinions. Your mileage may vary.

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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    After re-reading...I may not have properly understood your hand movement explanation the first time around. It seems pretty standard, although re-tracing the path of the chop to ready for a second chop if needed IS inherently wasteful and is just one of those "no-no"s in Kenpo. If you were to follow through with the first chop...you probably wouldn't need a second one anyway. If you DO need a follow-up strike, it should come from the left hand, or with the right hand on an appropriate plane...not an abrupt stop and reversal.

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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    Quote Originally Posted by SenseiRH View Post
    After re-reading...I may not have properly understood your hand movement explanation the first time around. It seems pretty standard, although re-tracing the path of the chop to ready for a second chop if needed IS inherently wasteful and is just one of those "no-no"s in Kenpo. If you were to follow through with the first chop...you probably wouldn't need a second one anyway. If you DO need a follow-up strike, it should come from the left hand, or with the right hand on an appropriate plane...not an abrupt stop and reversal.

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    I disagree. A chop and reverse, is just simply moving up to your own hand.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    If a threw a right cross, instead, I would also bring my hand back to the side of my head, for protection, and... where were you thinking it should go?
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    I disagree. A chop and reverse, is just simply moving up to your own hand.
    By that logic...anything you did with your hand would be useful...since you're claiming the "vehicle" and "destination" to be one and the same.

    It's like saying you're going to drive a car to a car...which happens, but is called "an accident."



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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    Quote Originally Posted by SenseiRH View Post
    By that logic...anything you did with your hand would be useful...since you're claiming the "vehicle" and "destination" to be one and the same.

    It's like saying you're going to drive a car to a car...which happens, but is called "an accident."



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    You lost me, but there is nothing wrong with bringing your hand back to the guard. I concede not everybody fights like me, but 99% of my circles start and finish, with one or more of my hands, by my face.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    If a threw a right cross, instead, I would also bring my hand back to the side of my head, for protection, and... where were you thinking it should go?
    If I threw a right cross instead...I'd use my left hand to cover my head...loop the right hand downward and return to the right side of my body by using a backknuckle to the ribs on my way through...followed by a slicing left chop or heel palm to the neck/face. It is at THAT point I'd set the right hand high for the possibility of continuing the assault/attack/what-have-you.

    But I guess that's just me.

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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    Quote Originally Posted by SenseiRH View Post
    If I threw a right cross instead...I'd use my left hand to cover my head...loop the right hand downward and return to the right side of my body by using a backknuckle to the ribs on my way through...followed by a slicing left chop or heel palm to the neck/face. It is at THAT point I'd set the right hand high for the possibility of continuing the assault/attack/what-have-you.

    But I guess that's just me.

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    Sounds slow.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    You lost me, but there is nothing wrong with bringing your hand back to the guard. I concede not everybody fights like me, but 99% of my circles start and finish, with one or more of my hands, by my face.
    Essentially so, since "A" and "B" zones must be covered. But what is being described (at least as I understand it) isn't a circle; it's the direct retracing of an arc, which again, I find to be counter to the idea of efficiency through a lack of wasted motion.

    Case in point: in the time it takes to stop the motion, reverse direction, and be ready for "another chop"...you could have already struck your opponent 2 more times, been perfectly protected AND STILL be ready for that "backup chop."

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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    Quote Originally Posted by SenseiRH View Post
    Essentially so, since "A" and "B" zones must be covered. But what is being described (at least as I understand it) isn't a circle; it's the direct retracing of an arc, which again, I find to be counter to the idea of efficiency through a lack of wasted motion.

    Case in point: in the time it takes to stop the motion, reverse direction, and be ready for "another chop"...you could have already struck your opponent 2 more times, been perfectly protected AND STILL be ready for that "backup chop."

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    I'm not worried about trying to hit him, more times; I am worried about being ready for anything by getting my hand up, on either side of my face, based on the logic of the technique. (i.e. left or right side.)
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    I do agree that if I kick someone on the inside of the thigh or groin area, and land with a chop the neck, he won't be there, for a second chop, but you put your hand where it is supposed to go, anyway.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    As I said...the left hand can be useful for that (hand up near side of face). Especially if it means you're not retracing the same path for no good reason.

    Of course what I'm describing is more along the lines of an extension, whilst the OP seems to be working within the confines of "base technique." His follow-up chop would be considered outside of that though, and would be an extension of sorts...but since it is limited to one additional strike, I'd say it's more of a suffix.

    If by logic of the technique, you are referring to the whole "dead hand" aspect then yes; your way is more correct (again, IMO). But in the big picture of "what's best to do" or "more appropriately Kenpo-like"; I'll defer to my previous statements.

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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    Quote Originally Posted by SenseiRH View Post
    As I said...the left hand can be useful for that (hand up near side of face). Especially if it means you're not retracing the same path for no good reason.

    Of course what I'm describing is more along the lines of an extension, whilst the OP seems to be working within the confines of "base technique." His follow-up chop would be considered outside of that though, and would be an extension of sorts...but since it is limited to one additional strike, I'd say it's more of a suffix.

    If by logic of the technique, you are referring to the whole "dead hand" aspect then yes; your way is more correct (again, IMO). But in the big picture of "what's best to do" or "more appropriately Kenpo-like"; I'll defer to my previous statements.

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    I am a center line freak; so, I fight a lot like I am swinging a stick just back and fourth; so, the logic of the tech works for me. I would have to see what you were talking about, for the more advance Kenpo idea, before I say, yay, or nay.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    I am a center line freak; so, I fight a lot like I am swinging a stick just back and fourth; so, the logic of the tech works for me. I would have to see what you were talking about, for the more advance Kenpo idea, before I say, yay, or nay.
    Maybe things are getting lost in translation here...but if I were swinging a stick...I wouldn't swing/stop/re-trace/set...I would follow through with the first swing (for instance from 1:30 to 7:30) then make my next back the other way (I.e. 9 to 3) then chamber it up high by my head to (possibly or not) continue. And that's exactly what I'm suggesting by coming back across the ribs with the backknuckle instead of re-tracing the same line to re-set for another chop.

    What you're suggesting (again, as I understand your words) is to swing said stick (in this example) from 1:30 to 7:30...then directly on the same path from 7:30 to 1:30. Just in case you want to do it again.

    If we take momentum out of the equation you'd be correct in saying the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. In reality, however, that's not the case and you are working harder to do less. Hitting the guy more times is a side effect of the more-proper movement strategy, which is why it's more proper. Add the fact that it is just as fast as what you're suggesting; makes it doubly so...despite your assertion that it "sounds slow." It isn't.

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    Last edited by SenseiRH; 06-08-2017 at 07:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    I do agree that if I kick someone on the inside of the thigh or groin area, and land with a chop the neck, he won't be there, for a second chop, but you put your hand where it is supposed to go, anyway.
    "Supposed to go" is a bit of a misnomer here...since if you're putting it somewhere where it will be less or not at all effective or useful: what did you accomplish by doing so? And what was accomplished by such a thing when more could have been accomplished by something else?

    To be clear, I'm not trying to dump on you here...just trying to challenge your thinking on the subject. cheers!

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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    Quote Originally Posted by SenseiRH View Post
    Maybe things are getting lost in translation here...but if I were swinging a stick...I wouldn't swing/stop/re-trace/set...I would follow through with the first swing (for instance from 1:30 to 7:30) then make my next back the other way (I.e. 9 to 3) then chamber it up high by my head to (possibly or not) continue. And that's exactly what I'm suggesting by coming back across the ribs with the backknuckle instead of re-tracing the same line to re-set for another chop.

    What you're suggesting (again, as I understand your words) is to swing said stick (in this example) from 1:30 to 7:30...then directly on the same path from 7:30 to 1:30. Just in case you want to do it again.

    If we take momentum out of the equation you'd be correct in saying the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. In reality, however, that's not the case and you are working harder to do less. Hitting the guy more times is a side effect of the more-proper movement strategy, which is why it's more proper. Add the fact that it is just as fast as what you're suggesting; makes it doubly so...despite your assertion that it "sounds slow." It isn't.

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    If he is that close, and didn't die, I would step with the return, and come down on his chest, with the outward elbow, from on high.
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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    If he is that close, and didn't die, I would step with the return, and come down on his chest, with the outward elbow, from on high.
    It sounds like your preferred method of chop for this is moreover from 3 to 9 at standing-neck-level...instead of going diagonally from 1:30 to 7:30 to take advantage of the angle of incidence created by his reaction to the kick.

    Am I understanding you incorrectly? Lol...this is one of those conversations that would be much more easily explored on the mat. Our words convey less than our physical movements ever could in this case.

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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    Quote Originally Posted by SenseiRH View Post
    It sounds like your preferred method of chop for this is moreover from 3 to 9 at standing-neck-level...instead of going diagonally from 1:30 to 7:30 to take advantage of the angle of incidence created by his reaction to the kick.

    Am I understanding you incorrectly? Lol...this is one of those conversations that would be much more easily explored on the mat. Our words convey less than our physical movements ever could in this case.

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    True.
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    Default Re: Sword of Destruction with a Twist

    Due to some experimentation, I have somewhat changed my way of doing this technique since I wrote the OP above.

    Seems like the most effective way to deal with a roundhouse punch is an extended outward block directed diagonally forward, intercepting the attacking arm just below the crook of the arm.

    I do stick with the kick to the bladder area though. I have heard of too many instances when a groin kick was surprisingly ineffective, plus (if it's a rising kick) there is a chance that my leg could get trapped between the opponent's legs as the opponent reflexively brings them together. I know that many Kenpo practitioners aren't very comfortable with kicks in the first place, however, in my Shotokan days, I had a reputation for kicking people in the head, so a kick to the lower abdomen is low enough in my book.

    The final chop may cut diagonally down onto LI-17 on the base of the neck, on a perpendicular line right under the ear lobe. I would let the chop sink in a bit before bringing the arm back up to guard my face, because that particular target works best with a certain degree of penetration. By now, I should be done and may cross out, but I am keeping my guard up just in case.

    There is no extension for Sword of Destruction, but if I would indeed need to continue my counter attack, I may, instead of retracting the chopping arm, roll it into an elbow strike (sandwich). It goes without saying that there are many possibilities here, and I would let the artistic inspiration of the moment be my guide...

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