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Thread: Destructive Twins

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    Default Destructive Twins

    How many of you use a neutral bow in Destructive Twins as you do the initial u-punch? Why the neutral bow? Do any of you use a forward bow? If so, why?


    Jamie Seabrook

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    I use a forward bow because it generates more power fore me and I feel more balanced.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    I have been using a neutral for the power of the lead hand and to help power at its height
    "Say hello to Susan"
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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    I use a neutral bow. Then step slightly over with my right foot so I can shift to the forward with the 4 finger thrust to the eyes.

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    How many of you use a neutral bow in Destructive Twins as you do the initial u-punch? Why the neutral bow? Do any of you use a forward bow? If so, why?


    Jamie Seabrook
    Hi Jamie,

    I personally use and teach a neutral bow for this. Let me explain why.

    Let us look at the nature of the attack I believe it is done from a position where someone has their hands around your throke and is trying to stop you from breathing primarily. also you have your back to a wall so you can't go back.

    Therefore we must be able to survive this inital attack, by getting rid of the hold. Try it with someone forcefully holding you in this position and stepping forwards into a forward bow hold gets worse your larynx gets squeezed harder and you've just help your attacker achieve his goal.

    Now stepping forwards into the neutral bow will also have the same effect unless you employ a pivot of your waist to bring your shoulders round from being on a 3 to 9 oclock line to a 12 to 6 oclock simultaneously stepping forwards. This will certainly cause pain to the fingers and wrists of the assailant who will not be able to maintain there grip and hey presto in go your punches to move them away.

    This is of course simplified description and relies on a good movement into a correct neutral bow.

    Any thoughts suggestions and comments to the test greatly appreciated.

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    Forward bow to generate power with the rear hand (same concept as when using any type reverse strike.) Then, when you snake your hand through to peel off the opponents arm and hyper extend their elbow, you transition into a neutral bow which helps generate tourqe (additional force) to that maneuver as well.

    BTW: We execute this as a defense against a double lapel grab with the attacker pulling you towards them. I can see how this would not be effective against a choke as kenposikh stated moving into a choke is generally a bad idea!
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    BTW: We execute this as a defense against a double lapel grab with the attacker pulling you towards them. I can see how this would not be effective against a choke as kenposikh stated moving into a choke is generally a bad idea!
    Hi Thank you for that I have only ever known it as a front two handed choke so I can see if it is a lapel grab and pull that the forward bow would make sense.

    The attack as you describe it is what we have as raking mace or mace of aggression.

    Good point thanks for the input.

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    i was recently shown this to be used against a two hand grab, where the attacker is trying to spin you around into a right choke hold. so, in this case there is a pulling from his left hand and more of a counterclockwise turning from his right. a neutral bow would set the proper bracing angle for this attack, while a forward bow would likely cause him to spin you down to the ground.

    another 'tricky' part of this technique comes after the u-punch, where you come under to clear the arms. i've seen it done by coming under both arms and also by snaking over his right and under his left. a good test is to tell your partner to slap you in the face with his left if you don't keep it in check.

    my preference to ignore his right arm, it should no longer be attached to you after the u-punch and width should be canceled once you go into the right forward bow. i like to apply a right pinning check to his left wrist and control his left elbow with my snaking left, releasing the pinning check after the eye poke in time with the left regrab of his left arm, in order to pull him into the right punch.

    thoughts?

    pete

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    I prefer to snake under the arm in order to produce hyper extension of the left elbow when clearing it. This is only possible by keeping the hand in check.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    i was recently shown this to be used against a two hand grab, where the attacker is trying to spin you around into a right choke hold. so, in this case there is a pulling from his left hand and more of a counterclockwise turning from his right. a neutral bow would set the proper bracing angle for this attack, while a forward bow would likely cause him to spin you down to the ground.


    pete
    Pete,

    When Larry Tatum showed us this at the east coast camp, he told me to use a FORWARD BOW, instead of the NEUTRAL BOW that I have always used. I didn't get the chance to ask him why because I was called up to get trounced on at that time, LOL, and I forgot to ask him after the seminar.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Pete,

    When Larry Tatum showed us this at the east coast camp, he told me to use a FORWARD BOW, instead of the NEUTRAL BOW that I have always used. I didn't get the chance to ask him why because I was called up to get trounced on at that time, LOL, and I forgot to ask him after the seminar.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
    Not that I would argue with Master Tatum, oh hell why not live dangerously I say.

    Can someone please define what we are discussing here.

    What attack and nature of the environment, are we being pulled or pushed up against a wall, I think this part needs to be defined before we can discuss what the first move should be.

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by kenposikh
    Not that I would argue with Master Tatum, oh hell why not live dangerously I say.

    Can someone please define what we are discussing here.

    What attack and nature of the environment, are we being pulled or pushed up against a wall, I think this part needs to be defined before we can discuss what the first move should be.
    That's the whole thing. There seems to be so much variability in the nature of the attack. Mr. Tatum taught us that the catalyst is someone grabbing your shoulders on both sides and trying to spin you to his right in order to apply a rear choke.

    In reality, nobody is going to apply a two-handed choke or lapel grab and just stand there waiting for you to hit him.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    In reality, nobody is going to apply a two-handed choke or lapel grab and just stand there waiting for you to hit him.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
    Probably not...but you never know...there's some pretty stupid people in this world. LOL.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    For those who need it here is the technical breakdown


    Destructive Twins (Front- Two-Hand Lapel Grab; Pulling In)
    1. An attacker at 12 o'clock grabs your lapels with both hands and pulls in.

    2. Step your right foot forward into a right neutral bow as you execute a 'U' punch towards 12 o'clock. [Your left hand should be striking at your attacker's face and your right hand striking at the groin.]

    3. Shift your right foot towards 1:00 as you snake your left arm down between your attacker's arm (striking the left down and sliding under the right. Simultaneously strike up against your attacker's left elbow. Snake your left hand under your attacker's left arm. Execute a left outward block and chamber your right hand as you pivot into a right forward bow.

    4. Execute a left hand spear towards your attacker's eyes.

    5. Utilize torque and pivot into a horse stance facing 10:30 as you execute a right reverse punch to your attacker's ribs.

    6. Step to 3 o'clock with your left foot into crossover. Unwind into a horse stance facing 6 o'clock as you pull your attacker through and execute a right upper-cut punch to their elbow.

    7. Cross out towards 3 o'clock.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    Very similar to the way it appears in our syllabus

    Destructive Twins
    DEFENSE: Two-Hand lapel grab/pull from 12:00
    STANCE: Natural
    1) Using borrowed force, step forward into a right forward bow executing a left high line reverse punch to opponent’s nose simultaneously with a right low line uppercut to opponent’s floating ribs (U-Punch)
    2) Circle your left hand under opponent’s left arm behind their elbow using the back of your hand as a "backstop" and hook your right hand over opponent’s left arm taking control at the wrist
    3) Rotate into a right neutral bow as you use opposing force to hyper extend opponent’s elbow (simular to executing a left outward block while pulling in with your right hand on opponent’s forearm)
    4) Transition into a right forward bow executing a left hand eye slice simultaneously with a right descending punch to opponent’s ribs
    5) Take control of opponent’s left wrist with your left hand as you execute a right snap kick to the inside of opponent’s right knee
    6) Settle with a right uppercut under opponent’s left elbow breaking the arm
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    So I see from these two written descriptions, we are left again with.....forward bow or neutral bow as we execute the u-punch?


    Jamie Seabrook

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    Personally when you do the clearing of the arms after the U-Punch it feels kinda awkward from a neutral (I know I changed my mind, you guys are infectious. I went over and over this technique) like you really have to reach, also you do not have much mass behind your top hand
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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    yes, its like Protecting Fans (from the other side)

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by Casey_Sutherland
    Personally when you do the clearing of the arms after the U-Punch it feels kinda awkward from a neutral (I know I changed my mind, you guys are infectious. I went over and over this technique) like you really have to reach, also you do not have much mass behind your top hand
    Casey,

    Good points, but I am specifically asking whether a forward bow or neutral bow works best AS YOU EXECUTE THE U-PUNCH (not after).


    Jamie Seabrook

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    Default Re: Destructive Twins

    My thoughts on the topic. I step to the neutral bow. Reason, for me it seems to give near equal power in both hands on the strike. I believe it to be a split between the two hands. My meaning, if my attack or response to the attack was just a left punch to the face I would shift into a forward bow. If my response was just a right uppercut type punch to the groin area (or body) I would tend to shift to a modified horse stance to generate power to the strike. So I think the neutral allows both hands to be active participants in the strike. However, try it for yourself. hit your opponent or heavy bag with each strike individually. Do the strikes like a boxing drill and note the natural position of your feet as you strike with each hit. Then combine with both forward and then modified horse stances. I find the neutral a good compromise between the stances. Just my thought proccess to why I use the neutral that I was originally taught.

    Faron

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