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Thread: Universal Pattern

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    Default Universal Pattern

    A three dimensional pattern of movements developed bt Ed Parker that was conceived to aid students to have a directional key to movement. It is a design that would also aid in systematically understanding the interrationship of linear and circular movements which they follow. - Infinite Insights Into Kenpo Volume 1 by Ed Parker

    Sounds impressive enough, but what does it really mean, how do you convey it to your students and how useful is it to you and them in your classes. We have a lot of great Kenpo minds on this site let us not let this thread degenerate into a waste of time and energy, please keep the comments on topic or please don't bother posting in the thread.
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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    Great topic. The project I'm currently working on is tracing the paths of movement for each technique based on the 3D Universal Pattern. I'm overlaying UPs on video of the techniques being done. Currently in planning stages, finding the right camera angles to illustrate is a time consuming project.
    ~ Steve Zalazowski
    Continuing Student of the Arts.

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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    There is a question I will ask of my colleagues ~ usually after they reach 1st degree black.

    How many axis are there in the Universal Pattern?

    I do my best to let them work it out, rather than answer the question for them.

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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    I would love to see a long article or even a book on the subject.
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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    First you need to consider the point of reference for discussing the pattern. First person, second person, or third person point of veiw. Also determine if you are outside looking in or inside looking out. One can not effectively translate the conceptual possibilties of the movement, and apply it to patterns until a standard base point of comparrison is established.

    When one considers the universal pattern from the third person perspective veiwing two opponents who are about to engage. One can picture the attacker as the black universal pattern and the defender as a white universal pattern. The two patterns together form a figure eight on a horizontal plane, which can also be seen when one turns the universal pattern 90 degrees. Once the two opponents are engaged and enter into each others space then one can see the overlapping circles within the pattern. The center point of the pattern can be used as a pivot point for any rotational joint of the body.

    The outer boundry of the universal pattern could be the outer limits of ones physical movement for explosion, and the point where it changes into implosion, however it could also be a burden if you trap yourself to the predetermined pattern itself. The universal pattern is a circle, and a circle can be elongated into an elispe, or twisted into a figure eight pattern itself.

    There are many aspects to the universal pattern, so in-order to study it's use one needs to establish the purpose, direction, focus, and desired intent of its study.
    Brad Marshall SP
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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    First you need to consider the point of reference for discussing the pattern. First person, second person, or third person point of veiw. Also determine if you are outside looking in or inside looking out. One can not effectively translate the conceptual possibilties of the movement, and apply it to patterns until a standard base point of comparrison is established.
    Excellent points concerning perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    When one considers the universal pattern from the third person perspective veiwing two opponents who are about to engage. One can picture the attacker as the black universal pattern and the defender as a white universal pattern. The two patterns together form a figure eight on a horizontal plane, which can also be seen when one turns the universal pattern 90 degrees. Once the two opponents are engaged and enter into each others space then one can see the overlapping circles within the pattern.
    I would posit that when using the Universal Pattern to evaluate the movement in a given technique or encounter the third person perspective is the most efficient way to view the totality of movement, it's really just the first two perspectives combined. (Remember, we're only talking about movement here.) One must also take into consideration the totality of the attacker's attack. For basic evaluation of the ideal phase you can stop the attacker's points of movement where you ideally would be stopping them, but the Universal Pattern will also give you an excellent tool to consider the movement options still available to the attacker (as well as your own) when you want to evaluate beyond the ideal phase.

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    The center point of the pattern can be used as a pivot point for any rotational joint of the body.
    I would agree in principle, but would add that you should also consider the intersection point of lines and arcs within the pattern as possible and probable pivot points, most especially of the appendages.

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    The outer boundry of the universal pattern could be the outer limits of ones physical movement for explosion, and the point where it changes into implosion, however it could also be a burden if you trap yourself to the predetermined pattern itself. The universal pattern is a circle, and a circle can be elongated into an elispe, or twisted into a figure eight pattern itself.

    There are many aspects to the universal pattern, so in-order to study it's use one needs to establish the purpose, direction, focus, and desired intent of its study.
    Extemely insightful post you are making here, Mr. Marshall. Folks should think on these things.

    Respects,
    Bill Parsons
    Triangle Kenpo Institute
    www.trianglekenpo.com

    "I know Kenpo!" "Cool... do you know how to use it?"

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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    Quote Originally Posted by bdparsons View Post

    I would agree in principle, but would add that you should also consider the intersection point of lines and arcs within the pattern as possible and probable pivot points, most especially of the appendages.
    That was a great point Sir, and I could not agree more.
    Brad Marshall SP
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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    I like the Universal Pattern, just as I like Thibault's Mysterious Circle or the various combinations used in the Filipino and Indonesion martial arts to represent their movement patterns. Regardless, when I teach I don't teach it through the concept of the Universal Pattern. I will mention that we are zoning to outside of the attack with reverse triangle footwork and then entering into the opponent with forward triangle footwork and if I had a Universal Pattern around I might point out that we are running the outside of the diamond. But that the optimal effectiveness of the technique is driven not by a pattern but because you need to get the hell offline and then invade the other guys space.

    At some point I think much of the analysis done to correlate to the Universal Pattern is martial movement patterns is Kenpo geekdom at its finest, overcomplicating something that is relatively simple. Done well it can be a useful teaching tool, done too much and the usefulness goes out the window. It is probably properly the purview of the upper ranks if they have gotten too bored with the basics of evading, invading, disabling, and exiting. But for underbelts I think the time is far better spent learning how to hit.
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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    I think the universal pattern can teach us how to move. I use the eight basic inner circles .
    Sean

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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    Oh, but there is sooooo much more to it!!! Someone said something about a book? Chapter 2 is all about the universal pattern and the nine planes and how and why that can be used to teach and understand proper paths and lines of action and motion. I am anticipating having the book done sometime around August of this year, depending on what else gets in the way. But since I am done with school I don't see that being a problem.

    I also did a 3d rendering and animation a couple years ago and posted it on you tube, follow this link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLVNQLFhilY This is an old one and I haven't had time to update it but have every intention of doing so. The U.P. is (I believe) and important tool that can aid and assist in the learning and teaching process.

    My two cents.
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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    There is a question I will ask of my colleagues ~ usually after they reach 1st degree black.

    How many axis are there in the Universal Pattern?

    I do my best to let them work it out, rather than answer the question for them.
    I modeled up the UP at work the other day. Whenever planes intersect you have an axis. I created the entire UP in 3D using 3 axis (x,y,z), 9 planes.
    Basics, the rest is bullshytery.

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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    Quote Originally Posted by DRANKIN View Post
    I modeled up the UP at work the other day. Whenever planes intersect you have an axis. I created the entire UP in 3D using 3 axis (x,y,z), 9 planes.
    Good Job.

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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Finn View Post
    I would love to see a long article or even a book on the subject.
    Interestingly enough, I have information on that very thing.... not entirely on the universal pattern but definitely more in depth or at least greater depth with regard to it's physical application to the kenpo techniques and martial arts.


    But you'll have to pm me because I can advertise it or post a link on this forum....

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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    My problem with the UP is that it gives too many options. By definition it pretty much contains every possible path.
    I se it mainly as a visualization aid, and as this I prefer to have it only one one plane soe the student needs to use his noggins to transfer the path from the plane shown to the plane actually used.

    It's one of the things that (IMO) need to be kept simple to give the best effect.

    Telling people that the pattern can be moved into any orientation is a neat thing, because it shows that there are more options if they think about it. Showing these options directly has not the same effect. Again, IMHO.
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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    Quote Originally Posted by sumdumguy View Post
    Interestingly enough, I have information on that very thing.... not entirely on the universal pattern but definitely more in depth or at least greater depth with regard to it's physical application to the kenpo techniques and martial arts.


    But you'll have to pm me because I can advertise it or post a link on this forum....

    Good Journey,
    Sumdumguy
    That is crap. Links related to Kenpo items should be allowed when the conversation warrants it. If that really is a rule then its a bad one in my opinion.
    the problem would be if it is spammed on every post a person makes.

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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny View Post
    My problem with the UP is that it gives too many options. By definition it pretty much contains every possible path.
    Don't misunderstand the purpose and intent because of an incomplete explanation of the use of the Pattern. I am of the opinion (and I teach it this way) that the pattern is affixed to you or any articulating joint, in a particular manner and does not adjust from that position. That being said the pattern may be rotated in it's orientation to define or accommodate various offensive and defensive maneuvers but it is or should be, different then the clock principle in it application/orientation.
    I se it mainly as a visualization aid, and as this I prefer to have it only one one plane soe the student needs to use his noggins to transfer the path from the plane shown to the plane actually used.

    It's one of the things that (IMO) need to be kept simple to give the best effect.

    Telling people that the pattern can be moved into any orientation is a neat thing, because it shows that there are more options if they think about it. Showing these options directly has not the same effect. Again, IMHO.
    IMHO, it's best used for the beginning student as a reference of the "proper" line or path of action of any offensive or defensive maneuver. no more and no less... at the intermediate levels they should start putting the shapes and patterns together as seen in the techniques and forms, understanding how one may cancel or augment another.

    Good Journey,
    Sumdumguy
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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    Quote Originally Posted by sumdumguy View Post
    Interestingly enough, I have information on that very thing.... not entirely on the universal pattern but definitely more in depth or at least greater depth with regard to it's physical application to the kenpo techniques and martial arts.


    But you'll have to pm me because I can advertise it or post a link on this forum....

    Good Journey,
    Sumdumguy
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyKBoxer View Post
    That is crap. Links related to Kenpo items should be allowed when the conversation warrants it. If that really is a rule then its a bad one in my opinion.
    the problem would be if it is spammed on every post a person makes.
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    Helps me pay the bills so y'all keep having a nice spam-free place to have good kenpo conversations.

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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hubbard View Post
    If anyone would like to -advertise- he can hit me up for some nice affordable rates, like the $21.95 Supporting Membership which allows access to market here.
    Helps me pay the bills so y'all keep having a nice spam-free place to have good kenpo conversations.

    Advertising and Solicitation policy
    http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showt...rtising-Policy

    and "hey, I got a product I cant mention, so contact me" IS a violation of that policy. Just to be clear.

    Well then, I guess you can delete the thread! But that's not what I said, and I have been very careful to not say anything on this forum for a long time! I asked you to remove me you refused, (and in fact I got a bunch of smart As* comments with regard to how to delete myself) nothing personal just don't think that contribution here or on any forum really, does anyone any good.... at least not the people arguing about the material..... but that's just my opinion that and a bag of salt will get you well.... a bag of salt! So I will bid you goodbye! and good luck in your endeavors.

    Good Journey,
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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    but i guess it is ok to put a tag on your youtube videos offering them for sale and then post those videos hundreds of times all over the forums?
    Interesting...

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    Default Re: Universal Pattern

    Quote Originally Posted by sumdumguy View Post
    Well then, I guess you can delete the thread! But that's not what I said, and I have been very careful to not say anything on this forum for a long time! I asked you to remove me you refused, (and in fact I got a bunch of smart As* comments with regard to how to delete myself) nothing personal just don't think that contribution here or on any forum really, does anyone any good.... at least not the people arguing about the material..... but that's just my opinion that and a bag of salt will get you well.... a bag of salt! So I will bid you goodbye! and good luck in your endeavors.

    Good Journey,
    Sumdumguy
    I have a "close my account" request from March 2012. You also asked in a post (link below).
    You were told we don't close accounts. While some of the other replies were sarcastic, neither I nor any of my staff issued any smart ass comments.
    If you don't want to be here, don't log in. If you want to solicit business from our members, then we insist you pay us for that opportunity. As to deleting this thread, no.
    http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showt...ated-4-10-2012

    Now can we all please return to discussing the original topic here please?
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